Multiple teachers and classes in primary school - best practice?

v638sg7k1a92bx

We're considering our options for a new primary. One of the schools teaching methods is that the primary school is structured like a secondary school in terms of having multiple teachers and moving from one class to another.

I spoke to the principal about this and whether this was considered best practice in primary and they were of the opinion that children from ages 6 upwards thrive in these type of environments.

Does anyone know if there is any research to back this up or evidence to suggest otherwise. What is the general consensus in the teaching profession?

silverharp

My kids are going through such a school, sort of a hybrid system where they have an official class teacher who would teach maybe half the subjects but the language teachers and some others might be different. havnt heard of it creating an issue and it means the overall quality of teaching is higher, plus secondary isn't such a jump.

v638sg7k1a92bx

silverharp wrote: »

My kids are going through such a school, sort of a hybrid system where they have an official class teacher who would teach maybe half the subjects but the language teachers and some others might be different. havnt heard of it creating an issue and it means the overall quality of teaching is higher, plus secondary isn't such a jump.

Thanks for the reply, do your kids stay in the same classroom or do they move from class to class?

Also, curious as to how it creates an overall higher quality of teaching? Do you know if there is any research on this - genuinely interested to know as I've never come across this method of teaching before?

silverharp

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, do your kids stay in the same classroom or do they move from class to class?

Also, curious as to how it creates an overall higher quality of teaching? Do you know if there is any research on this - genuinely interested to know as I've never come across this method of teaching before?

mostly they stay in the same class but one or 2 subjects might be streamed so they might have to switch classes. As far as quality of teaching mainly the languages, the teachers are native speakers and their art teacher wasnt the class teacher.
As for research no idea, I'g guess the switching class part should only be a secondary consideration and wouldnt have a major effect either way. Having more specialist teachers seems like a no brainer and can only be positive.

AndrewJRenko

This may be a dumb question, but is this happening in Ireland?

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

silverharp

my son in going into secondary now (same school) and one of the biggest discussion items seemed to be over lockers and how they organise between classes. "back in my day" you just got on with it now its a thing

AndrewJRenko

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

THanks - not something I had ever heard about in my time as a parent or BoM member.

v638sg7k1a92bx

silverharp wrote: »

mostly they stay in the same class but one or 2 subjects might be streamed so they might have to switch classes. As far as quality of teaching mainly the languages, the teachers are native speakers and their art teacher wasnt the class teacher.
As for research no idea, I'g guess the switching class part should only be a secondary consideration and wouldnt have a major effect either way. Having more specialist teachers seems like a no brainer and can only be positive.

Yes and no. I know Irish people who teach English abroad purely on the basis that they are native speakers and have no formal qualifications.

v638sg7k1a92bx

draiochtanois wrote: »

This has been happening in Ireland in some schools (yes public) since the 70s

Do you know if there is any research into this and whether it's considered best practice. I assume that the schools who implement it have their reasons but is that because they think it's better for the kids or is it better for the school in terms of staffing, resources etc?

byhookorbycrook

draiochtanois wrote: »

This has been happening in Ireland in some schools (yes public) since the 70s

Really ? Haven't come across it ever . In our school we might swap for music or gymnastics and the SEN teachers provide some in-class support but I haven't heard of actual streaming in any primary school .

wirelessdude01

Private schools?

v638sg7k1a92bx

silverharp wrote: »

mostly they stay in the same class but one or 2 subjects might be streamed so they might have to switch classes. As far as quality of teaching mainly the languages, the teachers are native speakers and their art teacher wasnt the class teacher.
As for research no idea, I'g guess the switching class part should only be a secondary consideration and wouldnt have a major effect either way. Having more specialist teachers seems like a no brainer and can only be positive.

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Private schools?

It appears that this is only the case in private primary schools, I could be wrong but my understanding is that private primary schools are not regulated by dept of education and are not required to hire "qualified" teachers from teacher training colleges. As a result they can effectively hire whoever they want. This could the case in @silverharp post where a private primary school hires for example a French national to be the French teacher but they may not be qualified teachers or studied as a teacher in University, they may not even be third level educated. Point is that private primary can hire as they choose as they are not regulated by the dept.

Another interesting point in relation to streaming or having multiple teachers in primary school is that it allows the school to manage staffing and timetables differently to dept run schools. For example, by putting some teachers on hourly rates or as part time whereas in a dept run school that is unionised these type of work practices would probably not be accepted. This raises the questions as to whether this practice best suits the children/teaching or the schools bottom line?

silverharp

my kids school is a private one but the language teachers were primary teachers in their native country so they arnt trying to do things on the cheap , in the kindergarten they have a second trainee teacher again European in the class who is clocking up their practical hours so kind of a win win there.

AndrewJRenko

silverharp wrote: »

my kids school is a private one but the language teachers were primary teachers in their native country so they arnt trying to do things on the cheap , in the kindergarten they have a second trainee teacher again European in the class who is clocking up their practical hours so kind of a win win there.

If the language teachers aren't registered with the Teaching Council in Ireland, then they may well be trying to do things on the cheap.

v638sg7k1a92bx

silverharp wrote: »

my kids school is a private one but the language teachers were primary teachers in their native country so they arnt trying to do things on the cheap , in the kindergarten they have a second trainee teacher again European in the class who is clocking up their practical hours so kind of a win win there.

I think I know the school you are referring too. My understanding of that school is that the level of language the kids receive is minimal to put it mildly.

silverharp

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

I think I know the school you are referring too. My understanding of that school is that the level of language the kids receive is minimal to put it mildly.

I'd hope we are talking about different schools but if not do many primary schools learn a European language from Prep?, all I know is I expect A's in the leaving with minimal work in the LC cycle work showed junior the JC paper and I reckon hed get a high grade now

v638sg7k1a92bx

silverharp wrote: »

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

I think I know the school you are referring too. My understanding of that school is that the level of language the kids receive is minimal to put it mildly.

I'd hope we are talking about different schools but if not do many primary schools learn a European language from Prep?, all I know is I expect A's in the leaving with minimal work in the LC cycle work showed junior the JC paper and I reckon hed get a high grade now

I almost certain it is the same school. I wouldn't be setting the LC or JC as a measure of success as I don't think that they are good barometers of language proficiency. If it was me, the real barometer is that if my kids spent 2 years in prep school speaking another language every day they should almost be fluent by the end of the two years. After all, what are you paying for? We've had kids come into our kids class from other countries with zero English and within a matter of months they are conversing in English.

silverharp

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

I almost certain it is the same school. I wouldn't be setting the LC or JC as a measure of success as I don't think that they are good barometers of language proficiency. If it was me, the real barometer is that if my kids spent 2 years in prep school speaking another language every day they should almost be fluent by the end of the two years. After all, what are you paying for? We've had kids come into our kids class from other countries with zero English and within a matter of months they are conversing in English.

it is better than you are suggesting, my kids will be doing the JC in 3rd year and European state exams in 4th year then the LC in 6th. So they are learning to a much higher level then the LC language. from 5th class to 4th year they are basically doing 2 syllabi

v638sg7k1a92bx

silverharp wrote: »

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

I almost certain it is the same school. I wouldn't be setting the LC or JC as a measure of success as I don't think that they are good barometers of language proficiency. If it was me, the real barometer is that if my kids spent 2 years in prep school speaking another language every day they should almost be fluent by the end of the two years. After all, what are you paying for? We've had kids come into our kids class from other countries with zero English and within a matter of months they are conversing in English.

it is better than you are suggesting, my kids will be doing the JC in 3rd year and European state exams in 4th year then the LC in 6th.

Not sure what you mean. Is the JC and LC not in 3rd and 6th year anyway, what year are they in at the moment? Do you mean that they sit the JC and LC language exams in earlier years?

silverharp

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

Not sure what you mean. Is the JC and LC not in 3rd and 6th year anyway, what year are they in at the moment? Do you mean that they sit the JC and LC language exams in earlier years?

eldest is going into 1st year and has been doing a 6 year european syllabus since 5th class and will take those exams in 4th year so some subjects like math is learning in 2 languages or has been doing science in the other language since 5th class, there are other subjects like history where they do in both languages.
Not everyone in the school does this, probably half (at a guess) but good opportunity i they are up for it.

v638sg7k1a92bx

silverharp wrote: »

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

Not sure what you mean. Is the JC and LC not in 3rd and 6th year anyway, what year are they in at the moment? Do you mean that they sit the JC and LC language exams in earlier years?

eldest is going into 1st year and has been doing a 6 year european syllabus since 5th class and will take those exams in 4th year so some subjects like math is learning in 2 languages or has been doing science in the other language since 5th class, there are other subjects like history where they do in both languages.
Not everyone in the school does this, probably half (at a guess) but good opportunity i they are up for it.

Not trying to challenge you on this but are you sure that the European state exams you're referring to are actually state exams? AFAIK, they follow a certain syllabus to the equivalent of the JC but don't actually sit any recognised state exams. I don't think it's something the students can use to gain entry to Universities.

How does the school determine what kids get to do the second syllabus and how do the parents of the kids who don't do the other syllabus react, assuming they are paying the same fees?

Also, just in terms of the original question about multiple teachers, how does the school teach maths in another language, does the language teacher also teach the maths class but in a different language?

silverharp

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

Not trying to challenge you on this but are you sure that the European state exams you're referring to are actually state exams? AFAIK, they follow a certain syllabus to the equivalent of the JC but don't actually sit any recognised state exams. I don't think it's something the students can use to gain entry to Universities.

not directly they are intended for kids going on to apprenticeships. from an Irish perspective it might set a kid up to study there but entrance would be based on the LC primarily I'd imagine, having the exams would be a soft way of demonstrating proficiency .from my own perspective im 95% sure my kids will go to uni in Ireland but it could open the door to an Erasmus term/year abroad.

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

How does the school determine what kids get to do the second syllabus and how do the parents of the kids who don't do the other syllabus react, assuming they are paying the same fees?

Also, just in terms of the original question about multiple teachers, how does the school teach maths in another language, does the language teacher also teach the maths class but in a different language?

Ability and wish to do it , not all the kids could do it, often it depends on having a parent as a native speaker but not a must. Not sure what the other parents think, if you offer something and they dont take up the offer there is nothing really to complain about. The fees havnt gone up and they had to offer this programme to hold on to existing state funding from abroad so its probably mostly self funded. It never set out to be an immersive "gaelscoil", there is a French school in Dublin which is pure French but then I doubt anyone with Irish parents would send their kids there.
With the maths and science the kids on the programme are being thought by specialist teachers in those subjects so they are getting more a secondary style experience. Leads to some timetable quirks, like they are doing Biology and Chemistry in the language but wont be taking the Irish Science classes so there will be a gap in physics which they will make up in the transition year

v638sg7k1a92bx

silverharp wrote: »

not directly they are intended for kids going on to apprenticeships. from an Irish perspective it might set a kid up to study there but entrance would be based on the LC primarily I'd imagine, having the exams would be a soft way of demonstrating proficiency .from my own perspective im 95% sure my kids will go to uni in Ireland but it could open  the door to an Erasmus term/year abroad.

Ability and wish to do it , not all the kids could do it, often it depends on having a parent as a native speaker but not a must. Not sure what the other parents think, if you offer something and they dont take up the offer there is nothing really to complain about. The fees havnt gone up and they had to offer this programme to hold on to existing state funding from abroad so its probably mostly self funded. It never set out to be an immersive "gaelscoil", there is a French school in Dublin which is pure French but then I doubt anyone with Irish parents would send their kids there.
With the maths and science the kids on the programme are being thought by specialist teachers in those subjects so they are getting more a secondary style experience. Leads to some timetable quirks, like they are doing Biology and Chemistry in the language but wont be taking the Irish Science classes so there will be a gap in physics which they will make up in the transition year

I was thinking more in terms of the parents whose kids don't get the opportunity, do they not get annoyed that they don't have the same opportunity or is it mainly aimed at the native speakers. Do you know roughly what portion of kids are Irish versus native speakers who get to do this syllabus?
Also, how does it work in primary when they start the syllabus, do the teachers from the secondary school have to teach the primary school kids also? Reason I ask so many questions is because our kids are bi-lingual so the school seems like a natural fit but when I inquired about the level of language proficiency to expect the feedback was very mixed. I also contacted the school but they more or less referred me to the website.

silverharp

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

I was thinking more in terms of the parents whose kids don't get the opportunity, do they not get annoyed that they don't have the same opportunity or is it mainly aimed at the native speakers. Do you know roughly what portion of kids are Irish versus native speakers who get to do this syllabus?

Also, how does it work in primary when they start the syllabus, do the teachers from the secondary school have to teach the primary school kids also? Reason I ask so many questions is because our kids are bi-lingual so the school seems like a natural fit but when I inquired about the level of language proficiency to expect the feedback was very mixed. I also contacted the school but they more or less referred me to the website.

I don't know the %, I'd say a fair amount have at least 1 native speaking parent, in our case its my wife and since the day the kids were born she has put effort into encouraging the language. It would really depend on the kid, my son for instance is more a math head so he isn't a natural at languages. But there are others with no particular advantage so it can be hard work for him
And again with other parents not really heard anything, if you want "bilingual" kids you have to put the effort in at home to build on what is taught in school, they are supposed to be reading etc. at home, the school cant enforce that.

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

Also, how does it work in primary when they start the syllabus, do the teachers from the secondary school have to teach the primary school kids also? Reason I ask so many questions is because our kids are bi-lingual so the school seems like a natural fit but when I inquired about the level of language proficiency to expect the feedback was very mixed. I also contacted the school but they more or less referred me to the website.

When it started in 5th they got a new teacher who had just joined the school from abroad and he taught Maths and Biology , I cant remember off hand who taught the language subject or History. Personally I think they under taught the kids when they were younger and could have pushed the language a bit more, maybe the new programme will encourage them to do this. There has always been a bit of tension between some families who have moved over here or intending to move back where they wish the standard was higher but again this was before this programme was introduced so it may answer that one.

The school will have open days so you may get more info face to face. If your kids are bilingual then the school seems like a natural fit, the constant advice form the teachers are to get them reading at home which even my eldest is resistant to so a lot of it is the attitude of the kids.

v638sg7k1a92bx

Thanks for all the info genuinely appreciated. My main reservations with this school are

1. If kids spend two years in a prep school supposedly speaking a foreign language then I would expect that at the end of those two years that all the kids should be be fluent for their age and vocabulary regardless of whether the parents are from. You have bi-lingual kids so you know that just by speaking to kids in another language they absorb it like a sponge. Also, if the emphasis is not on academics in those first two years then what is the point if they're not speaking the other language. Then it seems like a big jump from 1st class where they've been doing no academics for two years straight into maths, reading and writing and expect to be at the same level as Irish schools! 

2. I have my concerns about the second syllabus. It seems like alot of work for very little gain, two syllabus's  at such an early age not to mention that you are effectively streaming kids based on ability but many kids don't come into their own until their teens. Also, I don't see languages as being an ability or something that you're good at. You either speak a language or you don't and going back to my previous point if the kids learn the language from prep school then they should be fluent anyway! This leads back back to your point about how the school needs this to secure state funding so who is the real beneficiary, the school or the kids?

3. From what I understand, that particular school does not achieve significantly higher results in languages than other schools in LC results. In the final analysis, you would expect that kids in a language school learning the one language would achieve higher results in that subject, on average, than the rest of the country. 
For a private school they don't appear in the Top 20 feeder schools for Universities. That in itself is not an issue for me, I know many parents are into that, but considering that they should effectively have 100 points in the bag the expectation is that they then have a significant head-start over other schools but that doesn't seem to translate into results. 

4. More of a logistic issue but I pass by the school on a regular basis in the mornings and it looks like madness. Trying to get parking and in and out of that campus seems very stressful and such an early start might be alot of disruption to family life.

Thanks again for all the info. We'll probably go along to an open day and put these questions to the school anyway.

silverharp

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

Thanks for all the info genuinely appreciated. My main reservations with this school are

1. If kids spend two years in a prep school supposedly speaking a foreign language then I would expect that at the end of those two years that all the kids should be be fluent for their age and vocabulary regardless of whether the parents are from. You have bi-lingual kids so you know that just by speaking to kids in another language they absorb it like a sponge. Also, if the emphasis is not on academics in those first two years then what is the point if they're not speaking the other language. Then it seems like a big jump from 1st class where they've been doing no academics for two years straight into maths, reading and writing and expect to be at the same level as Irish schools! 

my memory is failing here but the 2 year cycle isn't immersive , cant say I noticed any jumps or problems with, we taught our kids at home how to read and I am the maths dept at home so I taught them ahead. Im of the philosophy that schools cant deal with gaps in maths understanding which can accumulate slowly overtime so be proactive as a parent.

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

2. I have my concerns about the second syllabus. It seems like alot of work for very little gain, two syllabus's  at such an early age not to mention that you are effectively streaming kids based on ability but many kids don't come into their own until their teens. Also, I don't see languages as being an ability or something that you're good at. You either speak a language or you don't and going back to my previous point if the kids learn the language from prep school then they should be fluent anyway! This leads back back to your point about how the school needs this to secure state funding so who is the real beneficiary, the school or the kids?

I think language streaming is fair enough in the context, its the only fair way when you have a mix of native speakers and not. When they go into first year there will be a new group from outside the school so they will be taught as beginners so there will be 3 streams just for that subject. Our attitude is its something for the CV and would be noted by a relevant employer, 2 it is a challenge, junior would have coasted otherwise. 3 it means one subject where very little work will be needed in the senior cycle.

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

3. From what I understand, that particular school does not achieve significantly higher results in languages than other schools in LC results. In the final analysis, you would expect that kids in a language school learning the one language would achieve higher results in that subject, on average, than the rest of the country. 
For a private school they don't appear in the Top 20 feeder schools for Universities. That in itself is not an issue for me, I know many parents are into that, but considering that they should effectively have 100 points in the bag the expectation is that they then have a significant head-start over other schools but that doesn't seem to translate into results.

I'd be surprised with your first point , apart from the group that join the school in secondary the others have a huge advantage. The one quirk with the school is that they only start Irish in 5th class but I had heard they get average results in the subject compared to other Dublin schools
The school gets hobbled in those feeder stats because a bunch of kids leave Ireland every year and go back to their home country or go off and study in the UK and US so don't get counted

 

Dulce Icy Bunny wrote: »

4. More of a logistic issue but I pass by the school on a regular basis in the mornings and it looks like madness. Trying to get parking and in and out of that campus seems very stressful and such an early start might be alot of disruption to family life.

Thanks again for all the info. We'll probably go along to an open day and put these questions to the school anyway.

always a factor, wouldn't overly suffer to go to a particular school especially if you aren't on a convenient public transport route.