getting calcium from a vegan diet

seefin

Have been vegetarian for years but because I've had osteopenia since my early 20s l, I've made myself eat as much cheese and yogurt as I can to try to prevent further bone loss. Is it possible to be vegan and still get sufficient calcium? My GP has warned me against it but maybe she's just unaware of alternatives. Any vegans out there with osteopenia or osteoporosis?

Worztron

Hi seefin.

These are worth a read:
http://www.theveganrd.com/2013/08/calcium-and-protein-and-bone-health-in-vegans/
https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/calcium

Cheers.

Tar.Aldarion

non-dairy milks are calcium-fortified
Orange juice is sometimes too
Tofu
Cereal
Turnip
Kale
bok choi
Bread
Tortillas
Broccoli

Oh here are some in a pic:

seefin

Thanks, fortified soya , almond milk etc seem to be an easy option. There's something about calcium absorbability too I need to research ...hopefully as easily absorbed from milk substitutes. Also concerned about getting enough protein. I do weight lifting and take 120g a day...Greek yogurt gives me almost half that so need to find a suitable substitute. Maybe the soy yogurt. Thanks for the suggestions

Worztron

seefin wrote: »

Thanks, fortified soya , almond milk etc seem to be an easy option. There's something about calcium absorbability too I need to research ...hopefully as easily absorbed from milk substitutes. Also concerned about getting enough protein. I do weight lifting and take 120g a day...Greek yogurt gives me almost half that so need to find a suitable substitute. Maybe the soy yogurt. Thanks for the suggestions

Opt for soy milk over almond milk as it has a lot more protein. I love sweetened soy milk.

Also read these for protein info:
https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/protein
http://www.theveganrd.com/2014/02/plant-protein-why-vegan-diets-need-beans/

Tar.Aldarion

seefin wrote: »

Thanks, fortified soya , almond milk etc seem to be an easy option. There's something about calcium absorbability too I need to research ...hopefully as easily absorbed from milk substitutes. Also concerned about getting enough protein. I do weight lifting and take 120g a day...Greek yogurt gives me almost half that so need to find a suitable substitute. Maybe the soy yogurt. Thanks for the suggestions

120g seems like a huge amount but anyway, seitan is your friend, it's 80g protein per 100g which is insane, then just eat the rest of your food as normal.

seefin

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

120g seems like a huge amount but anyway, seitan is your friend, it's 80g protein per 100g which is insane, then just eat the rest of your food as normal.

For weightlifting and to build muscle, common advice is to eat 1g per lb of bodyweight. I'll do the maths at the weekend and come up with a way of getting complete protein. Dairy gives all the amino acids so I'm worried about losing muscle and bone mass as get older unless I have a handle on nutrients. Until I was 30 I wasn't concerned about health and did alot of damage to my body by eating badly so have been trying to make up for it since and want to continue that !!
Googled seitan and apparently it isn't a complete protein?

Tar.Aldarion

seefin wrote: »

For weightlifting and to build muscle, common advice is to eat 1g per lb of bodyweight. I'll do the maths at the weekend and come up with a way of getting complete protein. Dairy gives all the amino acids so I'm worried about losing muscle and bone mass as get older unless I have a handle on nutrients. Until I was 30 I wasn't concerned about health and did alot of damage to my body by eating badly so have been trying to make up for it since and want to continue that !!
Googled seitan and apparently it isn't a complete protein?

1g per lb bodyweight was just a nice number to throw around as far as I know.
Something better to aim for is 1 lb per pound of lean body mass instead of total weight. That's going to be something like 0.5-0.85 g/lb of total weight.
https://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/

Also needing to combine to get complete protein is mostly a myth. When people say incomplete they usually mean that one or more of the EAAs is low in that food source, not that it is not there. One that may not be whole is seitan as studies conflict each other as to whether it has tryptophan or not, but you would get that from the rest of your diet anyway. In general seitan is not sold pure., it will have some soy and stuff mixed with it which rounds out it's protein profile.

I can't think of any real diet where you wouldn't get enough of every Essential Amino Acid if you eat enough protein http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/protein

Even though the article on that page suggests lysine is a big deal the actual data clearly indicates that for pretty much anything people eat the daily requirement for lysine is satisfied well before the daily requirement for raw protein.

For example, oatmeal is not generally considered a "complete protein source"; just a decent source as cereal ones go. However, for a 90kg person, 12.2 servings of boiled oatmeal is required to meet daily protein requirements, while 10.8 will cover the lysine requirement. Even that crap fake diet would be fine for EEAs.

Basically eating any realistic diet will get you enough EAAs.

seefin

seefin wrote:

Thanks, fortified soya , almond milk etc seem to be an easy option. There's something about calcium absorbability too I need to research ...hopefully as easily absorbed from milk substitutes. Also concerned about getting enough protein. I do weight lifting and take 120g a day...Greek yogurt gives me almost half that so need to find a suitable substitute. Maybe the soy yogurt. Thanks for the suggestions

Not sure if allowed resurrect an old post . Have history of heart disease in family and apparently link between calcium supplements and heart issues? Calcification of arteries or something-my GP told me this last week .. Afraid similar issue with fortified foods or drink- are they not just supplements added to food so similarly harmful. Am meant to take between 1200 and 1400mg a day- finding it impossible without dairy to meet these targets without supplementation . It's easy to be a vegan in your 20s but not so easy when older and have real health concerns

jh79

seefin wrote: »

Not sure if allowed resurrect an old post . Have history of heart disease in family and apparently link between calcium supplements and heart issues? Calcification of arteries or something-my GP told me this last week .. Afraid similar issue with fortified foods or drink- are they not just supplements added to food so similarly harmful. Am meant to take between 1200 and 1400mg a day- finding it impossible without dairy to meet these targets without supplementation . It's easy to be a vegan in your 20s but not so easy when older and have real health concerns

Good analysis of the research here;

In summary no association between dietary calcium and heart attacks but an increase risk with supplements.

"Not only have calcium supplements been closely scrutinized for therapeutic use in dozens of prospective clinical trials, the evidence suggests that use in the absence of deficiency is at best, probably useless, and at worst, substantially elevating the risk of heart attacks and cardiovascular death. Without any clearly established benefits for most people, but exhibiting worrying signs of harms, it’s time to take the health halo off calcium supplements."

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/calcium-supplements-and-heart-attacks-more-data-more-questions/

I think you need to go back on the dairy. Fortified food counts as supplementation.

davidjtaylor

From Stephen Walsh's Plant-Based Nutrition and Health:

Even when the body is successful in maintaining calcium balance despite high losses or low intake, it does so at a price: increased levels of parathyroid hormone and calcitriol alter the calcium balance in all the cells in the body. These changes lead to increased tension in the veins and arteries, contributing to higher blood pressure…

Going from 0mg to 500mg of calcium per day adds 110mg to the calcium balance whereas going from 500 to 1000mg per day adds just 45mg.

Protein increases calcium loss by about one mg of calcium per gram of protein, but it also stimulates bone building. These conflicting effects mean that increased protein intake can have either a beneficial effect or an adverse effect on overall calcium balance, depending on background intakes of protein and other nutrients, genetic make-up and age.

If protein intake is already adequate, any further increase will make calcium balance worse.

Our prehistoric ancestors obtained about 1500mg of calcium per day from plants, though some of this would have been unavailable due to oxalates. High intakes of vegetables, fruits, roots and flowers would also have provided abundant potassium, magnesium, vitamin K and vitamin C, all in quantities far above modern norms. Dairy products and salt were notably absent. The same conclusions apply even more strongly to primate diets, which are very rich in all the beneficial minerals and low in sodium.

He recommends cutting out sodium and increasing potassium dramatically, given the underlying biochemistry of calcium balance.

He further recommends increasing vitamin K, vitamin C, magnesium and vitamin A (from plant foods, as pre-formed A - retinol - is associated with increased bone loss).

Further to that, alkaline foods (typically high in potassium relative to protein) help make the bones more resistant to calcium loss - meat & cheese would be especial culprits here. Many plant foods are alkaline.

Oh, and caffeine, sadly, should be eliminated.

Everyone should have his book, it's invaluable.

adelcrowsmel

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

120g seems like a huge amount but anyway, seitan is your friend, it's 80g protein per 100g which is insane, then just eat the rest of your food as normal.

Where do you get seitan - I can never see it anywhere to buy? Or does everyone make their own!

jh79

davidjtaylor wrote: »

From Stephen Walsh's Plant-Based Nutrition and Health:


He recommends cutting out sodium and increasing potassium dramatically, given the underlying biochemistry of calcium balance.

He further recommends increasing vitamin K, vitamin C, magnesium and vitamin A (from plant foods, as pre-formed A - retinol - is associated with increased bone loss).

Further to that, alkaline foods (typically high in potassium relative to protein) help make the bones more resistant to calcium loss - meat & cheese would be especial culprits here. Many plant foods are alkaline.

Oh, and caffeine, sadly, should be eliminated.

Everyone should have his book, it's invaluable.

Does he provide any references to clinical data that support the above?

davidjtaylor

jh79 wrote: »

Does he provide any references to clinical data that support the above?

Yes - 52 pages' worth for the entire book.

Like I say, there should be a copy in every home. It tackles and answers all questions regarding a plant-based diet.

jh79

davidjtaylor wrote: »

Yes - 52 pages' worth for the entire book.

Like I say, there should be a copy in every home. It tackles and answers all questions regarding a plant-based diet.

Specifically for the above?

The reason i'm asking is, it sounds like he is claiming that calcium balance is affected by the electronegativity of the other cations. I'd imagine that this would be quite a difficult thing to prove clinically.

Any chance you could get the reference from the book and post it ?

Worztron

Calcium: A Vegan Nutrition Primer: https://www.theveganrd.com/vegan-nutrition-101/vegan-nutrition-primers/calcium-a-vegan-nutrition-primer/

jh79

Worztron wrote: »

Calcium: A Vegan Nutrition Primer: https://www.theveganrd.com/vegan-nutrition-101/vegan-nutrition-primers/calcium-a-vegan-nutrition-primer/

So from the OP's persepective , and all of us really, don't eat the foritified juices or tofu due to the increased risk of heart attack.

3 cups of cows milk is equivalent to 3 cups of leafy greens. So choose whichever is easier for you would be my advice.

Cheese has significantly higher calcium levels than milk but not sure about the absorption rate.

jh79

seefin wrote: »

Not sure if allowed resurrect an old post . Have history of heart disease in family and apparently link between calcium supplements and heart issues? Calcification of arteries or something-my GP told me this last week .. Afraid similar issue with fortified foods or drink- are they not just supplements added to food so similarly harmful. Am meant to take between 1200 and 1400mg a day- finding it impossible without dairy to meet these targets without supplementation . It's easy to be a vegan in your 20s but not so easy when older and have real health concerns

https://www.dairynutrition.ca/nutrients-in-milk-products/calcium/calcium-and-bioavailability

Great table showing how many servings of plant based food required to match 1 serving of dairy. Takes into account absorption rates.

Worztron

jh79 wrote: »

So from the OP's persepective , and all of us really, don't eat the foritified juices or tofu due to the increased risk of heart attack.

3 cups of cows milk is equivalent to 3 cups of leafy greens. So choose whichever is easier for you would be my advice.

Cheese has significantly higher calcium levels than milk but not sure about the absorption rate.

OP mentioned they have a history of heart disease in the family so all that dairy cholesterol and saturated fat will do them no good.

jh79

Worztron wrote: »

OP mentioned they have a history of heart disease in the family so all that dairy cholesterol and saturated fat will do them no good.

Depends on what other sources of sat fat and cholesterol are in the OP's diet.

Not much dairy is required to meet the rda for calcium and the OP could mix some of the plant sources in the above links with dairy.

seefin

Worztron wrote:

OP mentioned they have a history of heart disease in the family so all that dairy cholesterol and saturated fat will do them no good.

Even when was eating dairy, saturated fat never got above 12g a day. I want to be vegan but don't know if my principles can outweigh my health concerns( selfish I know) . I'm young to have osteoporosis so scared of the future as it's going to get significantly worse in 50s and medication has terrible side effects - osteoporosis is horrendous when it gets bad. You can break a back bone from just sneezing, it's not just about falling and breaking a bone

_Brian

OP should visit a state registered Dietician and get proper professional advice specific to their family history and dietary requirements.

Considering the GP has pointed out specific concerns OP should get professional advice rather than reading a book or following dietary advice from random posters online.

seefin

_Brian wrote:

Considering the GP has pointed out specific concerns OP should get professional advice rather than reading a book or following dietary advice from random posters online.

The problem is my GP didn't know if fortified foods had same risks as supplements when I asked . Does anyone out there ? She also said it wasn't important to take vitamin d with fat or food whereas Google 'Bible' says otherwise. I'll ask her re referral to a dietician but I was at one years ago and she didn't know either. Think am going to compromise and maybe eat 2 servings of dairy to get half the calcium requirement and get rest from green veg and seeds

jh79

seefin wrote: »

The problem is my GP didn't know if fortified foods had same risks as supplements when I asked . Does anyone out there ? She also said it wasn't important to take vitamin d with fat or food whereas Google 'Bible' says otherwise. I'll ask her re referral to a dietician but I was at one years ago and she didn't know either. Think am going to compromise and maybe eat 2 servings of dairy to get half the calcium requirement and get rest from green veg and seeds

Fortified food does carry the same risk as supplements. See the link to Science Based Medicine i posted earlier

seefin

jh79 wrote:

Fortified food does carry the same risk as supplements. See the link to Science Based Medicine i posted earlier

It doesn't say it explicitly? Either way, it seems like the calcium in fortified drinks can settle at bottom so can't be sure how much getting.

Tar.Aldarion

I'd avoid pure calcium supplements for heart health. Fortified foods aren't likely bad but I've not read much about it. The reason I say that is because they think it's the lack of cofounders in a supplement that causes the issue, as in you need things like vitamin D with your calcium or it will cause issues, as well as the high burst one's or twice a day from pure supplements over smaller doses throughout the day to keep the calcium levels in your blood lower.

Ideally just get it from food, and you should be eating all those veg every day anyway. You need really low levels of vitamins d and calcium to be at risk of osteoporosis. Increased calcium intake in normal healthy people actually leads to more fractures. Recent studies show that if you eat less you absorb more and not to worry much about calcium as long as you get a few hundred mg per day.

https://youtu.be/OuiGrT6aSvQ

Tar.Aldarion

adelcrowsmel wrote: »

Where do you get seitan - I can never see it anywhere to buy? Or does everyone make their own!

Nourish sells some, so does other health food shops. Admittedly I either eat it at a restaurant or make it myself more than buying it. Very easy and cheap to make

seefin

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Ideally just get it from food, and you should be eating all those veg every day anyway. You need really low levels of vitamins d and calcium to be at risk of osteoporosis. Increased calcium intake in normal healthy people actually leads to more fractures. Recent studies show that if you eat less you absorb more and not to worry much about calcium as long as you get a few hundred mg per day.

I have to go with what you consultant told me which is to get minimum 1200mg a day. Even if that's not true at least I can't blame myself in years to come and can blame her.

Worztron

seefin wrote: »

It doesn't say it explicitly? Either way, it seems like the calcium in fortified drinks can settle at bottom so can't be sure how much getting.

You need to shake it well before pouring.

davidjtaylor

jh79 wrote: »

Specifically for the above?

The reason i'm asking is, it sounds like he is claiming that calcium balance is affected by the electronegativity of the other cations. I'd imagine that this would be quite a difficult thing to prove clinically.

Any chance you could get the reference from the book and post it ?

Crikey, not sure. He gives 147 references in relation to the calcium chapter alone but they're not linked to specific sentences. They're largely Lancet, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, Journal of Bone and Mineral Research, Hypertension, and publications like that.

It's not easy to sift through it. If you know about such things (biology and chemistry) then you'd probably enjoy chatting to him - he says his background is in "process systems analysis, using mathematical models to predict how biological or chemical processes will respond to changes and the actions required to achieve a desired result".

I attribute my and my partner's very good health in part to the very comprehensive information in this single publication.

I'll post a couple of snaps of the reference pages (I don't think he'll mind about copyright issues for that). Blimey, that's eight photos. The guy is thorough.

davidjtaylor

OK, first three pages of references relating to calcium - if you want more, let me know! Hope they're readable.