Water pressure problem

Good loser

New submersible pump in 2016.

One water trough is about 80 ft below yard level (and the pumphouse) and most of the rest of the troughs. When there is a warm day and a big draw on the low trough the tap in yard gets very slack as do some of the troughs on the level - and especially one higher trough.
Any reasons for this?

freedominacup

Good loser wrote: »

New submersible pump in 2016.

One water trough is about 80 ft below yard level (and the pumphouse) and most of the rest of the troughs. When there is a warm day and a big draw on the low trough the tap in yard gets very slack as do some of the troughs on the level - and especially one higher trough.
Any reasons for this?

Your pump isn't big enough.

Gawddawggonnit

freedominacup wrote: »

Your pump isn't big enough.

Or pressure is too low.

I'd a lot of problems with water supply until I upped the pressure to 150psi.

freedominacup

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Or pressure is too low.

I'd a lot of problems with water supply until I upped the pressure to 150psi.

There's a long list of possible problems dawg but based on the symptoms I think it's pump size. Cut in pressure could also be the problem.

dar31

Easier for water to go down hill than up.

Good loser

freedominacup wrote: »

Your pump isn't big enough.

It's 3/4 hp and the old one did alright for years in the same borehole. Mind you the the pump carried a lot of iron oxide gunge when lifted before.

Good loser

freedominacup wrote: »

There's a long list of possible problems dawg but based on the symptoms I think it's pump size. Cut in pressure could also be the problem.

I think mine cuts in at 50 psi.

150 psi seems very high as a cut in point.

If there is any significant draw out the fields - from stock drinking - the exit pressure in the yard tap falls a lot.

longgonesilver

How big a draw is a big draw? How many cows are drinking from it.

When they changed the pump did they change the pressure tank?

Check the pressure in the air side of the pressure vessel. To do this you must turn off the pump and drain the water to get the true air pressure in the tank, otherwise you only get the water pressure at the time.

Water John

It could be a variety of issues. We are presuming you have not a large extra number of cows.
Open pipe near pump, to see the volume it is pumping. It would be great to have a 90 degree tap and then gradually restrict the flow and see does the pressure rise. If it doesn't, you have a volume problem with the pump. Hopefully that is sediment blocking the intake vents.

Normally, sub pumps would work between 2 and 6 bar, which is 28 to 84 PSI.
There would be a 2 bar differential between cut in and cut out. So running between 2 and 4 or 3 and 5 or 4 and 6, typical settings.

On the test above, as you restrict the flow to a small flow and pressure builds up. If it then starts cutting in and out quickly, the air pressure is gone out of the cylinder.

A 3/4 HP should push a fair bit of water.

A lot of more recent problems have been pipe size too small over distance.
If pressure at a drinking tank drops a few seconds after opening the ballcock, then the pipe is restricting flow.

Good loser

longgonesilver wrote: »

How big a draw is a big draw? How many cows are drinking from it.

When they changed the pump did they change the pressure tank?

Check the pressure in the air side of the pressure vessel. To do this you must turn off the pump and drain the water to get the true air pressure in the tank, otherwise you only get the water pressure at the time.

Thanks for that.

No they didn't change the (fibre glass) pressure vessel when the pump was changed.

See below too.

Good loser

Water John wrote: »

It could be a variety of issues. We are presuming you have not a large extra number of cows.
Open pipe near pump, to see the volume it is pumping. It would be great to have a 90 degree tap and then gradually restrict the flow and see does the pressure rise. If it doesn't, you have a volume problem with the pump. Hopefully that is sediment blocking the intake vents.

Normally, sub pumps would work between 2 and 6 bar, which is 28 to 84 PSI.
There would be a 2 bar differential between cut in and cut out. So running between 2 and 4 or 3 and 5 or 4 and 6, typical settings.

On the test above, as you restrict the flow to a small flow and pressure builds up. If it then starts cutting in and out quickly, the air pressure is gone out of the cylinder.

A 3/4 HP should push a fair bit of water.

A lot of more recent problems have been pipe size too small over distance.
If pressure at a drinking tank drops a few seconds after opening the ballcock, then the pipe is restricting flow.

Thanks for that.

The pipe network is all 3/4 inch.

I think now my problem is a hot-day one when the 30/40 cattle at the lowest 40 gallon tank come up to drink together; this empties the 230 metres of pipe and until they have stopped drinking and the last leg of the pipe fills the other outlets including the yard tap are starved of water. Especially the one tank 30+ ft higher than the yard.

Total 100 drystock.

Water John

One solution is to put a reservoir tank at the highest land point. I would pump up to that with a 50-63mm pipe. That pipe is separate from the distribution one.

Your well and pump are probably plenty big enough. Just the draw need to be spread over the 24 hours, using the reservoir. Add to that bigger drinking troughs in the fields.
Lots of places would have precast reservoirs, to drop on site. Carlow Concrete were the first to do them I think.

foxy farmer

What is the pump doing when its running? Is it short cycling as in switching on and off very quickly?
2 easy jobs are to take off the pressure switch and clean the orifice which could be blocked. Next as mentioned above disconnect the supply pipe drain the tank and check the precharge pressure. Should be around 28psi. If as you say you have iron ochre in the water the impellers in the pump could get restricted in time but its unlikely if the pump is only fitted with 2 yrs. I pulled up my pump here last yr after 12 yrs and it had to be scrapped as it was clogged with iron and some of the plastic impellers had rounded on the shaft so they stopped spinning eventually. How long does it take to build full pressure with main gate valve shut?

Good loser

Water John wrote: »

One solution is to put a reservoir tank at the highest land point. I would pump up to that with a 50-63mm pipe. That pipe is separate from the distribution one.

Your well and pump are probably plenty big enough. Just the draw need to be spread over the 24 hours, using the reservoir. Add to that bigger drinking troughs in the fields.
Lots of places would have precast reservoirs, to drop on site. Carlow Concrete were the first to do them I think.

I expect that would solve the problem. The cost though.

Basically the pump would only be filling the new reservoir - and all outlets would backfill from that?

Good loser

foxy farmer wrote: »

What is the pump doing when its running? Is it short cycling as in switching on and off very quickly?
2 easy jobs are to take off the pressure switch and clean the orifice which could be blocked. Next as mentioned above disconnect the supply pipe drain the tank and check the precharge pressure. Should be around 28psi. If as you say you have iron ochre in the water the impellers in the pump could get restricted in time but its unlikely if the pump is only fitted with 2 yrs. I pulled up my pump here last yr after 12 yrs and it had to be scrapped as it was clogged with iron and some of the plastic impellers had rounded on the shaft so they stopped spinning eventually. How long does it take to build full pressure with main gate valve shut?

Thanks for that. I don't think pump is cycling.

Last year, before changing pump, I noticed the water from the yard tap was warm - especially noticable in cold weather And the ESB bill was high!

I would say, as you suggest, it would take a fair few years for the pump to clog with iron.

Might get someone to do those checks.

To last question just a few minutes on one try last week.

freedominacup

Good loser wrote: »

To last question just a few minutes on one try last week.

Should be seconds not minutes.

Mooooo

Dry stock even on a hot day should never put water under pressure, if get the lads that put in the pump to check it and as the lads say the vessel also.

patsy_mccabe

Mooooo wrote: »

Dry stock even on a hot day should never put water under pressure, if get the lads that put in the pump to check it and as the lads say the vessel also.

Of course they would. If the cattle drink more than the pump can supply, then the system will be starved of water.

J.O. Farmer

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Of course they would. If the cattle drink more than the pump can supply, then the system will be starved of water.

Yes and no.

They can't increase the flow rate at the trough so the question is whether the ballcock being fully open can have that big of an effect on the system.

The hot day and number of cattle will only affect how long it's fully open making the problem more likely to be noticed.

It would still be there in cold weather with 1 weanling if the trough gets lowered enough to fully open the ballcock. The difference is the amount of time it's open.

123shooter

If the valve/tap is open on the lower trough at 80ft below all overs that is a tremendous suction power created. So no or hardly any water would get to the higher troughs.........if I understand correctly?

patsy_mccabe

Ya if the lower trough had a high flow rate ballcock, and if that flow rate was higher than the pump, the whole system would be drawn down in pressure.

orm0nd

if the all the troughs were connected in a loop it would make a huge difference

we done it a few years back on the advise of a neighbour,

foxy farmer

orm0nd wrote: »

if the all the troughs were connected in a loop it would make a huge difference

we done it a few years back on the advise of a neighbour,

Same system (ring mains circuits) used in electrical networks. Can be fed from both sides in case of breakdown when faulty section is isolated. Allows for smaller pipe diameters as troughs are supplied from both sides.

Good loser

Sorted this problem last week. Pressure had continued low since the Summer and troughs in slats were very slow to fill.

The first problem was the pressure in the vessel (a 30 yr old Wellmate) was low and had not been boosted for years. When this was corrected it didn't fix the pressure issue. Because there was iron oxide (orange colour) in the pipes near the tank; this oxide was soft but had narrowed the apertures significantly. The pumphouse was in the yard and 10 yards from the outside tap; when this link was isolated and air blown through with the compressor it cleared it. Another link to a tank a further 10 yards was isolated and compressed air blown through.
These efforts were enough to solve the problem completely.
Plumber said an old pressure vessel should be checked once a year at least as there is less flex in the rubber.
Also that if the problem was manganese rather than iron oxide it would be much harder to shift.
If the pressure had been as high as it should be (30 cut in 50 cut out) it would have better flushed the oxide.
Also the yard pipe to the tap was not working as actively as the pipes to the water troughs and build up was facilitated.

whelan2

We have recently rebored our well. New piping put down. Put a new 1.5 hp pump in and a filter in the pump house. Its amazing in this day and age that there's no filter to put down on the pump to stop tge iron stuff coming up

Water John

Any filter down the well, would clog. It would need a backwash mechanism, making the pump a lot dearer and would disturb all the well water.
Your hope is admirable but not feasible. Lots of iron or manganese, are a right pain. For you, I would suggest an ion exchanger on the house line and the raw water is fine for the stock.

foxy farmer

I'd say that most new wells sunk around here in last 20 yrs all have issues with rust and manganese. IMO it's the depth of well that's the biggest culprit.
I posted above about changing a pump last year after it clogged with rust. I used it continuously since and it gave up pumping water about 2 months ago. I'm certain it's clogged again. I have a dug well 24ft deep in the yard. Grand clean water. The only issue is it goes slack in late summer. Never an issue with the pump.

whelan2

How much is an ioniser?

Water John

Your talking about 12/1600 euro. Don't know of the grant situation now, but you could get a 75% grant on it from the County Council, for a domestic supply.