Should I be annoyed?

Leonard Hofstadter

Looking for opinions please. I had my car in a garage this morning as I had gotten fault codes for bank 1 O2 sensor 2 (the post cat sensor). The sensor was knackered so it was replaced, but the issue I have is the garage never asked me if I wanted it to be replaced before doing it (despite me being in the waiting room the whole time) and it's cost me about €190.

On the one hand I was complaining that there were fault codes for the sensor and I have no right to complain because I went in with a problem and it's now fixed, but on the other, surely they should have asked me before replacing it as the sensor only exists to monitor the efficiency of the cat (to the best of my knowledge - although I did get the check engine light once for system too lean bank 1 and there's definitely no leaks or issues with injectors etc) so it would have been perfectly fine to never have bothered replacing it at all and I could have saved myself €190?

I've already paid so I don't know what ringing to complain on Monday will achieve other than letting off steam (although I did grumble a bit about the cost of the sensor when I was at the garage - but the price is the going rate for a Bosch sensor as I've discovered this afternoon).

If it makes a difference, the car is a BMW 325 (of the E46 variety).

Thanks in advance.

Toyotafanboi

It depends.

Personally if a job isn't much more expensive that the diagnostic fee, I'd always plough on and fix it. The customer never (rarely; the exception being boardsies :P) brings a car in that they don't want fixed, the customer always wants the car ASAP, so if there's a car on a lift that is already costing someone €100+ in diagnostics then if it needs a sub €100 part, the answer is pretty much always proceed to fit.

Out of interest, would you have declined if offered?

bear1

I wouldn't cause I would have had to fix it regardless.
Now if you went in to repair a worn bush and they replaced a shock absorber as well I'd be annoyed.

Cee-Jay-Cee

You should have clearly stated you didn't want them to replace anything without first saying it to you if that's what you wanted.

You brought a car in complaining about a fault. They fixed it as they assumed that's what you wanted.

You then paid without bringing it to their attention that they shouldn't have fixed the fault without running it by you first.

You had ample opportunity to say it to them when paying the bill.

If the cost had of been less you wouldn't be complaining, would you? Even though they still wouldn't have ran it past you first?

Your only complaining because it cost you more than you thought it would. If they had told you the price first and you decided the price was too much, they would have charged you for the diagnostic check anyway and their time so you would be paying €40-60 for that and then have to go elsewhere to try and find a cheaper sensor which you most likely wouldn't have managed to do so it would probably have ended up costing you more.

You are at fault here, no one else. Complain if you feel the need to but I know what I'd be telling you to do if I were taking that call...

H.E. Pennypacker

Maybe a bit more info.

What did you ask the garage to do when you brought the car in?

Leonard Hofstadter

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

Out of interest, would you have declined if offered?

In this case, yes, because it's only a sensor to monitor the efficiency of the catalytic converter, so it would have had no bearing on the running of the engine or passing an NCT. If it was the pre cat sensor I would have not only given the go ahead (regardless of cost - I know OEM sensors are expensive), I would have been delighted that it had been done and dusted without having to make a second garage visit, and no, I would not have expected them to ask me about it first (as that is a fault that has a material effect on the running of the engine not to mention the cats). As anyone who knows me well knows, I spare no expense with my car but I do feel like I've thrown the bones of €200 down the drain today, the car would have driven away fine without replacing the sensor really.

I take the point made by others that I should have stated that I did want them to run it by me first before I agreed the go-ahead. I wouldn't mind but they did ask me about doing something else with the car when I was there (I had asked about replacing the DISA valve o-ring as a preventative maintenance measure but it turns out that you can't get the part on its own unless you get it off ebay or something, if you go down the OEM route you can only get a complete one from BMW and that's quite expensive, not to mention that there's nothing at all wrong with the DISA valve) and they actually said they assumed I didn't want the entire valve done but they wanted to check with me first (and they were right). I'll live and learn!

Kenny Logins

What did you want them to do with the fault codes?

Del2005

If the engine is running lean it can do more than €200 worth of damage.

Leonard Hofstadter

Kenny Logins wrote: »

What did you want them to do with the fault codes?

I wanted them to confirm that it was the post cat sensor that was definitely at fault before fixing it and run it by me beforehand. I could hear what I thought were vacuum leaks (although it turns out there wasn't) and the exhaust downpipe gaskets were done recently so I thought there could be something else causing the fault codes (this is why I'm not a mechanic!!).

If we were talking about O2 sensor 1 (the one that actually impacts on vehicle running) or anything else that affects the engine's running, I wouldn't have started this thread (even though I still think I should have been told the price beforehand, but it wouldn't have bothered me as I've been a very happy camper with this garage up till now), but frankly, I don't see the point in spending €200 on a sensor that doesn't affect the running of the engine, yes I know it should work, but the car can survive perfectly well without the post cat sensor working (it doesn't even put the check engine light on) - the sensor does not tell the ECU to do anything differently in terms of the fuel/air mixture, it's just there to monitor how effectively the catalytic converter is working, nothing more - and this is why I'm a bit cheesed off.

Toyotafanboi

You'll have to appreciate that to 99.9% of people, a check engine light = a problem/ a concern; that they don't want or need.

99.9% of people will want the "problem" fixed. That's why they take it to the garage.

This is the scenario that most garages expect as it's how virtually all jobs play out. I've yet to meet a punter myself who just wants to pay me to confirm their diagnosis and give their car back having lightened their wallet to the tune of €100 just to tell them what they already knew, so scenarios like that must be in the extreme minority and in those scenarios, the punter must be very clear that they do not want the car fixed.

It's like going to the doctor, asking him to confirm that pain in your arm but getting annoyed when he writes you a prescription because you wanted to self medicate. If you knew where the pain was and wanted to self medicate, why go to the doctor?

I wouldn't be annoyed at the garage tbh. They followed what would usually be a standard procedure for them. No offence but if you knew as much as you knew, why didn't you just fix it yourself? It's almost a classic case of too many cooks. You took a problem to a business that fixes problems, it may not be the result you wanted but you can't really blame them for fixing it, at that price point at least.

Leonard Hofstadter

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

You'll have to appreciate that to 99.9% of people, a check engine light = a problem/ a concern; that they don't want or need.

99.9% of people will want the "problem" fixed. That's why they take it to the garage.

This is the scenario that most garages expect as it's how virtually all jobs play out. I've yet to meet a punter myself who just wants to pay me to confirm their diagnosis and give their car back having lightened their wallet to the tune of €100 just to tell them what they already knew, so scenarios like that must be in the extreme minority and I those scenarios, the punter must be very clear that they do not want the car fixed.

It's like going to the doctor, asking him to confirm that pain in your arm but getting annoyed when he writes you a prescription because you wanted to self medicate.

I wouldn't be annoyed at the garage tbh. They followed what would usually be a standard procedure for them. No offence but if you knew as much as you knew, why didn't you just fix it yourself? It's almost a classic case of too many cooks. You took a problem to a business that fixes problems, it may not be the result you wanted but you can't really blame them for fixing it, at that price point at least.

Yeah, I take the point (and those of others who said the same thing)!

Had I not had the diagnostic scanner I wouldn't have bothered booking the car in to begin with (I got them to do something else but it was only a preventative maintenance item) but I did tell them I wanted them to check the fault codes and I was bothered by the hidden DTCs even though I knew the car was fine to keep driving.

I'm sure if I was in their shoes I would have done the same thing and fixed it as I would have reckoned that if the customer was observant/fussy enough to complain about a hidden fault that they must have wanted it to be fixed (the fault wasn't causing a warning light to come up on the dash after all so nobody, not even me, would have noticed there was anything wrong with the car, if it wasn't for the diagnostic scanner).

And yes, I totally agree, everyone else would have been happy with the service they received today (as I would have been if it was a DTC that caused the MIL to come on or another more serious fault:)).

Message received and understood!

corks finest

captainspeed wrote: »

Looking for opinions please. I had my car in a garage this morning as I had gotten fault codes for bank 1 O2 sensor 2 (the post cat sensor). The sensor was knackered so it was replaced, but the issue I have is the garage never asked me if I wanted it to be replaced before doing it (despite me being in the waiting room the whole time) and it's cost me about €190.

On the one hand I was complaining that there were fault codes for the sensor and I have no right to complain because I went in with a problem and it's now fixed, but on the other, surely they should have asked me before replacing it as the sensor only exists to monitor the efficiency of the cat (to the best of my knowledge - although I did get the check engine light once for system too lean bank 1 and there's definitely no leaks or issues with injectors etc) so it would have been perfectly fine to never have bothered replacing it at all and I could have saved myself €190?

I've already paid so I don't know what ringing to complain on Monday will achieve other than letting off steam (although I did grumble a bit about the cost of the sensor when I was at the garage - but the price is the going rate for a Bosch sensor as I've discovered this afternoon).

If it makes a difference, the car is a BMW 325 (of the E46 variety).

Thanks in advance.

Yes,u should be a bit pissed off,but normally I'd specify that to the mechanic prior to any work been done.

rex-x

captainspeed wrote: »

does not tell the ECU to do anything differently in terms of the fuel/air mixture, it's just there to monitor how effectively the catalytic converter is working, nothing more - and this is why I'm a bit cheesed off.

This is not necessarily true. The rear o2 is not as important as the front o2 but it still can control the fuel trims and when bad can make for a very poor running car. It also may scupper your chances of passing an nct emissions test depending on how it has failed and the condition of your cat, so you got more value out of the new sensor than you think.

Leonard Hofstadter

rex-x wrote: »

This is not necessarily true. The rear o2 is not as important as the front o2 but it still can control the fuel trims and when bad can make for a very poor running car. It also may scupper your chances of passing an nct emissions test depending on how it has failed and the condition of your cat, so you got more value out of the new sensor than you think.

I thought it was only some Fiat group cars where the post cat sensor affects fuel trims?

If it's the case that it affects other makes then I'm certainly very glad they fixed it!

Having done some googling this morning, there does seem to be conflicting information on BMW forums as to whether the post cat sensor does affect the AFR, so probably just as well I got it done then to be on the safe side .

OldmanMondeo

I think you have the right to be annoyed, your sitting in the waiting room, they could have came out and mentioned what was wrong. What if you have no money at the time? Forgotten wallet etc.

Autochange

OldmanMondeo wrote: »

I think you have the right to be annoyed, your sitting in the waiting room, they could have came out and mentioned what was wrong. What if you have no money at the time? Forgotten wallet etc.

Diagnostics and garage time aint free either