Confederate

The_Valeyard

A new show from the directors of GOT

'Confederate is an upcoming American television and alternate history drama series set in a timeline where the Confederacy won the American Civil War. David Benioff and D. B. Weiss are developing the series for the network HBO. The two previously developed the HBO series Game of Thrones'



I'm a massive fan of alternate history shows. This could be very good, but already some sjw groups are trying to stop it.

Agent Coulson

I've read this hasn't gone down well with African Americans especially with who is in and behind the current White House administration.

The_Valeyard

Agent Coulson wrote: »

I've read this hasn't gone down well with African Americans especially with who is in and behind the current White House administration.

Seems to be outrage of the week.


Man in the High Castle is very well done, I think this could also be interesting.

corks finest

The_Valeyard wrote: »

A new show from the directors of GOT

'Confederate is an upcoming American television and alternate history drama series set in a timeline where the Confederacy won the American Civil War. David Benioff and D. B. Weiss are developing the series for the network HBO. The two previously developed the HBO series Game of Thrones'



I'm a massive fan of alternate history shows. This could be very good, but already some sjw groups are trying to stop it.

Looking forward to this

silverharp

I like alternative history but this idea doesnt grab me much if its set now and if there is still actual slavery in the show. I guess it would be interesting to see a world where the the South successfully succeeded

iguana

I think that the problem with this is that it sounds like a story designed for it's shock value rather than an actual alternative history story. If the south had won the civil war and the US as we know it had become a smaller US and a Confederacy slavery would still be long abolished in both territories. It would have been slower in the south but it would have still happened. As for the 'sjws' not liking the idea, well I can see why black Americans aren't too keen on a depiction of their alternative contemporaries in chains. Who would be, especially when it's a nonsense premise. I can't imagine we'd be too keen on watching a Channel 4 alternative history drama where Ireland lost the War of Independence and Irish people in alterna-2017 were depicted as potato craving, leprechaun believing untermensch. When in a credible alternative history where we remained in the UK, the odds are we'd be in a similar position to the Scottish today.

I don't think too many people would mind watching a credible alternative history but it's not that surprising that a bit of victim porn isn't too popular.

fitz

Pretty on-the-money article here from Te Nehisi Coates:

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/08/no-confederate/535512/

It feels a bit like HBO should go watch the Juneteenth episode of Atlanta and then re-evaluate whether they still think this is a good idea.

TerrorFirmer

The outrage is largely hysteria, really, and all about leaping to conclusions in the main. We know almost nothing about the show, yet people are automatically leaping to assume that the show will have black people in chains. In fact it's even being done in this thread.

I think it's a fascinating concept and I'd be really looking forward to it. Benioff and Wiess are smart guys, I think it's grossly unfair to write it off as some sort of exploitative grindhouse concept when we know so little about it other than the solid back-record of those behind it.

The American Civil War was a huge event in the nations history and development and a hypothetical Confederate victory - which was at many points a distinct possibility - is a huge 'what if' that interests a great many academics and people.

I doubt the series will have black people as modern day slaves but it could be likely that the South will have outlawed slavery at some point, but black people will face the same level of overwhelmingly adversity even in the modern day that their historical counterparts faced in the early 20th century.

Or else maybe the Confederate Government will force black people to emigrate to the defeated, economically weakened, industrially stripped northern states - leading to a modern day Confederacy where black people simply aren't really very common, if at all.

No idea what they're going to do with it but a well thought out, intelligent show that takes care in exploring how a Confederate victory would have shaped the development of the continent and the identity of the United States would be brilliant. No reason at this point in time to suspect that it will be anything but, given it's green-lit by HBO and developed by individuals with very solid track records.

I can't imagine we'd be too keen on watching a Channel 4 alternative history drama where Ireland lost the War of Independence and Irish people in alterna-2017 were depicted as potato craving, leprechaun believing untermensch.

This is really just hysterical nonsense.

Owryan

People complaining that a show suggesting a Confederate victory would be meant the survival of slavery, yet the war was initially not about the ending of slavery and a union victory early in the war would have allowed slavery survive.

A union victory before Antietam would have seen the secessionist states readmitted to the union with slavery still in force. It was only as the war progressed that northern elements began to see how slavery was a valuable tool for the southern states.

History lesson over. Personally I would love to see this show made. The alternate history writer Harry Turtledove has covered this topic in some detail

TerrorFirmer

Owryan wrote: »

The alternate history writer Harry Turtledove has covered this topic in some detail

I always thought Guns of the South would make an amazing TV show or movie.

Owryan

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I always thought Guns of the South would make an amazing TV show or movie.

Was that the one with the ak-47's and the south Africans? That one would make a great mini series

iguana

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Or else maybe the Confederate Government will force black people to emigrate to the defeated, economically weakened, industrially stripped northern states - leading to a modern day Confederacy where black people simply aren't really very common, if at all.

Why in the name of fuçk would they have done that? The Confederates didn't hate black people, they saw them as a commodity that much of their wealth depended on. If they had expelled black people, who made up as much as 40% of the population in many areas south of the Mason-Dixie, their economy would have collapsed immediately.

And it has been confirmed that slavery is preserved in the world of Confederate. An absolutely nonsense premise. Slavery was so far out of fashion in much of the world by the time of the American Civil War. If the Confederates had done anything but phase slavery out they would have been suffering all sorts of embargoes that they'd almost certainly have been non-viable by the start of the 20th century. The proliferation of non-slavery agreements and treaties all over the world during the late 19th century make it very likely that the rest of the world would have been keen to use slavery as a justification for keeping the Confederacy from garnering influence. It would have suited Europe and South America greatly to keep Northern America from gathering too much international power by keeping their economy from growing. Remember, the British who had previously outlawed slavery supported the South, in the civil war because they foresaw the power potential of a unified US and wanted to avert it.

Slavery was the banner the civil war was fought under and the propaganda of the victor ensures that emancipation of slaves is how most people automatically think of that war. But the reality is that the war, like most wars, was mainly fought for economic purposes and slavery was a much smaller part of it than is assumed. I love alternative history but AH is only good if the writers have a very, very solid grasp of the actual history. And anyone imagining a Confederacy that has preserved slavery into 2017 is going to create an alternative history with less validity than my 4 year old's musings on what would have happened if the Vikings had met the Mayans.

Owryan

Even if the south had won the states would have fragmented even more because they had little other than slavery in common. Hell they couldn't even agree to supply units from other states with basics like food or uniforms.

Many of the Confederate leaders knew slavery was doomed and some had advocated that it be phased out in return for military service.

While the shows premise is intriguing it really calls for the suspension of belief and to accept what is on screen.

iguana

Owryan wrote: »

While the shows premise is intriguing it really calls for the suspension of belief and to accept what is on screen.

Is it really that intriguing though? There is huge potential in an AH of a world where the South won, emphasis on world. Without the emergence of a powerful United States the whole of world history would be so completely different. Right off the bat, the political landscape of South America, Europe and Asia would be very, very different. Without US involvement in Latin America from the Pacific Wars shortly after the Civil War to American interference in the Mexican Revolution shortly before the first World War, that would be a very different continent. Speaking of the first World War, assuming it happened, the outcome could have been very different as would the outcome of the second, again, assuming it happened. If the Russian Revolution still happened, just imagine the difference to the world a lack of America's 1947 National Security Act would have made.

I loved the idea of the series when I first read it because I thought it could be great, even though realistically the story would focus on life in what is the current US, which would probably be the least interesting part of the set-up. But this series will be no more an alternative history than Game of Thrones is a period drama. It will be a modern fantasy series set around the utterly unrealistic idea that that kind of slavery would still exist in 2017. It will be liberal slavery porn and to make it in and about a country where race relations are still so volatile seems like nothing more than a shock value tactic to garner publicity. Which seems to have backfired.

maudgonner

^^^

You seem to have made up your mind already about what this series will be and will not be. From what I've seen, details are quite scant at the moment, so I'm not sure where you're getting your information from?

One of the most fascinating series to make it to screens lately shows an alternate history (or near-future) where the majority of women in the US are treated as either incubators or slaves. A situation that's pretty much unthinkable to us today, but the most frightening aspect of the story is the little insights into how it came about, that almost make it imaginable.

Why not wait and see how the series actually shapes up before judging it? Maybe it will turn out to be as thought provoking as The Handmaid's Tale?

JohnFalstaff

iguana wrote: »

Is it really that intriguing though? There is huge potential in an AH of a world where the South won, emphasis on world. Without the emergence of a powerful United States the whole of world history would be so completely different. Right off the bat, the political landscape of South America, Europe and Asia would be very, very different. Without US involvement in Latin America from the Pacific Wars shortly after the Civil War to American interference in the Mexican Revolution shortly before the first World War, that would be a very different continent. Speaking of the first World War, assuming it happened, the outcome could have been very different as would the outcome of the second, again, assuming it happened. If the Russian Revolution still happened, just imagine the difference to the world a lack of America's 1947 National Security Act would have made.

Much of this was explored in a 2004 alternate history film called C.S.A: The Confederate States of America. The film presents the material as a documentary (or, if you will, 'mockumentary') complete with racially insensitive commercials, some of which are based on actual products from the early part of the 20th century.

It's worth a look if you're interested in alternate history stories. The whole thing is available to view on Youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exnwTWfFRM8

conorhal

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Seems to be outrage of the week.


Man in the High Castle is very well done, I think this could also be interesting.

The individual behind this campaign is, surprise surprise, April Reign, the same individual that created the #oscarsowhite hastag and gained a lot of publicity for herself and is obviously trying hard to keep the chip on their shoulder relevant, so in other words, best ignored.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/28/entertainment/confederate-hbo/index.html

Manach

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

I always thought Guns of the South would make an amazing TV show or movie.

Likewise - the author Harry Turtledove had an other series written on this (Southern Victory ?) which mirrored most of the main timelines 20th Century's events up to WWII but with the Confederate states now a player.

The Black Oil

Was keeping an eye out for To Appomattox a few years ago. Going by the updates from the guy behind it, they really struggled to get funding and a home for it.

Owryan

The Black Oil wrote: »

Was keeping an eye out for To Appomattox a few years ago. Going by the updates from the guy behind it, they really struggled to get funding and a home for it.

That's a pity, he had some cast lined up for it. It's been a long time since there was a civil war drama on TV or big screen that has been a success.

Think "Gettysburg" or "Lincoln" were the last stand outs, "God's and Generals" was a massive flop and that killed off any hope for the 3rd book "Last Full Measure" getting made.

"The Field of Lost Shoes" was also very poor. When you think of the scale of the civil war it's strange that it is too often overlooked as subject matter.

Agent Coulson

HBO CEO Richard Plepler On ‘Confederate’ Backlash: “We Screwed Up”

Speaking at the Vanity Fair summit on Tuesday, HBO CEO Richard Plepler said of the press release announcement, “We screwed up in an important way.”

The Black Oil

So eh, are you going ahead, or what?

Agent Coulson

Confederate Officially Axed: HBO Confirms Controversial Slavery Drama From Game of Thrones EPs Is Dead

With Game of Thrones EPs David Benioff and D.B. Weiss now tethered to Netflix via a mega-bucks overall deal, HBO president Casey Bloys officially confirms to TVLine that the pair’s long-gestating, controversial slavery drama Confederate will not be moving forward.

Confederate, an hour-long, sci-fi drama that envisions an alternate, post-Civil War world wherein “the southern states have successfully seceded from the Union, giving rise to a nation in which slavery remains legal and has evolved into a modern institution,” was dogged by controversy from the moment it was announced three years ago. Critics bristled at the idea of two white men — who have already come under fire for their portrayal of race (or lack thereof) on Game of Thrones — heading up a show about slavery.

https://tvline.com/2020/01/15/confederate-cancelled-hbo-slavery-drama-game-of-thrones-producers/

Hande hoche!

Not surprised by that. Now's the chance for Benioff and Weiss to hop on board the new Saved by the Bell series.

RobbingBandit

Nah they'll go for the Fresh Prince reboot instead.

Hande hoche!

RobbingBandit wrote: »

Nah they'll go for the Fresh Prince reboot instead.

Can see it now. Will spend most of the second season unsure as to whether or not Jazz is dead.

Skerries

like Will Smiths career

Hande hoche!

Skerries wrote: »

like Will Smiths career

Hard to argue too strongly against that. I say this despite making the effort to see Gemini man in the cinema.

pixelburp

Reading some American outlets, it always looked like there was a lot of pushback against this show's premise. And while I'd be loathed to have any creative endeavour canned because of peer pressure from the media, the whole show felt like an extremely difficult needle to thread that'd be a total minefield at best. Aside from the fact Benioff and Weiss' record is somewhat scuffed, they never seemed the right kind of perspective to be running the show either.