Good only declaration

rionzion

Hi all, this was the best place i could think of for my question although its really a legal question...

Can any legal eagles out there tell me what legislation gives a local authority the right to demand confirmation of self employed status in order to tax a commercial vehicle as such?

The rf111a form cites Article 3 of the Road Vehicles (Registration & Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992 which reads as follows:

3. Upon the receipt by a licensing authority of an application for a licence, upon compliance by the applicant with the provisions of sub-article (5) of article 2 of these Regulations, and upon payment by the applicant of the amount of duty appropriate to the vehicle, the licensing authority, if they are satisfied that the vehicle in respect of which the prescribed declaration is made is one in respect of which they are authorised to issue a licence and that the licence applied for is the appropriate licence for the vehicle specified, shall—


( a ) issue to the applicant an appropriate form of licence bearing the date of expiry thereof duly completed as required at paragraph (b);


( b ) enter upon such licence before issue thereof such particulars as the Minister may from time to time direct—


(i) the identification mark of the vehicle;


(ii) the cylinder capacity of the engine expressed in cubic centimetres, maximum seating capacity, or weight unladen (as the case may be) in respect of which duty has been paid;


(iii) the class, make and colour of the vehicle;


(iv) the annual rate of duty payable under the Act of 1952 and the amount of such duty paid;


(v) the date of issue of the licence;


(vi) the relevant code number of the licensing authority;


( c ) have due regard to the registration certificate or registration book or vehicle licensing certificate as appropriate, in respect of the vehicle and either retain the prescribed declaration made in respect of the vehicle or forward it to another licensing authority, as these Regulations require.
(sorry about the bad formatting, copy and paste job!)

the problem is this: nowhere does it state that the authority must satisfy themselves that the applicant is suitable for the taxation category, only that the vehicle is.

unless somebody can show me any other legislation or regulation that covers this, it's clear from the text of the regulation above that all local authorities who require a goods only declaration on the part of the applicant are in fact breaking the law!

I will be seeking further clarification from a relevant legal expert but for now just thought i'd put it out there in case anyone can save me the hassle.

rionzion

by the way sub article 5 of article 2 is about having the relevant insurance.

CiniO

There's more to it.

Have a look at Motor Vehicle (Duties and Licences) Act 2013

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/9/enacted/en/print.html

In short that's the most up to date legislation setting motortax categories and rates for those categories.

This bit represents (defines) what we know as commercial vehicles:

5. Vehicles (including tricycles weighing more than 500 kilograms unladen) constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of goods or burden of any other description in the course of trade or business (including agriculture and the performance by a local or public authority of its functions) and vehicles constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of a machine, workshop, contrivance or implement by or in which goods being conveyed by such vehicles are processed or manufactured while the vehicles are in motion:

What is relevant here is that it mentions "vehicles constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of goods or burden of any other description in the course of trade or business".

It applies to vehicles used for business, but doesn't state anywhere "solely used for business".
Therefore if vehicle taxed under that category is used for business, there's nothing in that legislation stopping anyone using that vehicle for private purposes as well (f.e. as second type of use).

For contrast, the same legislation when defining different kind of vehicles, clearly states that they can be only taxed under that category, if they are solely used for that purpose:

(a) any vehicle which is used as a hearse and for no other purpose,

€102

(b) any vehicle (excluding a taxi) which is used as a small public service vehicle within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act 1961 and for no other purpose,

€95

(c) any vehicle which is fitted with a taximeter and is lawfully used as a street service vehicle within the meaning of the Road Traffic Act 1961 and for purposes incidental to such use and for no other purpose,

IMO motor tax offices are requestion "goods only declaration" purely out of the blue without any grounds in the law.

rionzion

Thanks CiniO, looking forward to combing through that one!

I got started on this because it seems every time i change my van there's a new set of "required" documents and they always manage to send me away without a tax disc!

deeper down the rabbit hole i go!

rionzion

CiniO wrote: »

IMO motor tax offices are requestion "goods only declaration" purely out of the blue without any grounds in the law.

i've read through the legislation you linked, and the associated legislation, and i totally agree... i still cant find anything that contradicts what is stated in the 1992 regulations, essentially if you have a goods vehicle, that is registered as such, you can prove that you are insured to drive it and you have the correct fee, the authority is required under law to give you the correct license for that vehicle.

I'm still wondering if there's more to it... surely somebody should have spoken up about this by now?!

Isambard

it's surely much simpler. To carry passengers,other than during business use,you need the vehicle taxed as a passenger vehicle.

The concession is given or intended for, vehicles that are only commercially used.

Why would you give a concession for anyone to carry their passengers at a cheaper rate? It's isn't equitable.

GM228

Take the Finance Act 1958 for example, it amended the Schedule of the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act 1952 to require farmers to prove their occupation for taxing a tractor.

Anyway........

rionzion wrote: »

unless somebody can show me any other legislation or regulation that covers this, it's clear from the text of the regulation above that all local authorities who require a goods only declaration on the part of the applicant are in fact breaking the law

.......the RF111A is a prescribed form under S2 of the 1992 regulations, so any information required as part of the form is a lawful demand and required before being issued.

rionzion

I will have a look at the finance acts...

GM228 wrote: »

.......the RF111A is a prescribed form under S2 of the legislation 1992 regulations, so any information required as part of the form is a lawful demand and required before being issued.

To say that the RF111A is a prescribed form under S2 is stretching it a bit? unless i missed something it merely states that an application must be made, not that a form must be completed and that any and all information requested on that form must be provided, whatever that information may be.

As i said earlier, Article 3 is very clear that, subject to the criteria mentioned, an authority shall grant a license.

rionzion

Just for clarity here is article 3. of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations, 1992. once again with a few notes inserted -


3. Upon the receipt by a licensing authority of an application for a licence, upon compliance by the applicant with the provisions of sub-article (5) of article 2 of these Regulations [the relevant evidence of insurance in respect of the vehicle.], and upon payment by the applicant of the amount of duty appropriate to the vehicle, the licensing authority, if they are satisfied that the vehicle in respect of which the prescribed declaration is made is one in respect of which they are authorised to issue a licence [e.g. that it is normally kept in the authority's administrative area] and that the licence applied for is the appropriate licence for the vehicle specified [e.g. goods vehicle], shall—


( a ) issue to the applicant an appropriate form of licence bearing the date of expiry thereof duly completed as required at paragraph (b)

---that seems pretty clear to me, and i'm still looking for any legislation that contradicts this.

besides, this is the very legislation cited on the RF111A form as giving the authority the right to ask about the applicants self-employment status - which it clearly DOESNT!

rionzion

rionzion wrote: »

I will have a look at the finance acts...



To say that the RF111A is a prescribed form under S2 is stretching it a bit? unless i missed something it merely states that an application must be made, not that a form must be completed and that any and all information requested on that form must be provided, whatever that information may be.

As i said earlier, Article 3 is very clear that, subject to the criteria mentioned, an authority shall grant a license.

apologies, i see you meant schedule 2 not article 2.. still i dont see form rf111a under the prescribed forms??

rionzion

there is: FORM R.F.4


Declaration, application for a licence for a goods vehicle.

but there is no RF4 form in actuality.

it is interesting to note that there is no detail given within the regulations of what format the prescribed forms are to take.

GM228

CiniO wrote: »

There's more to it.

Have a look at Motor Vehicle (Duties and Licences) Act 2013

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2013/act/9/enacted/en/print.html

In short that's the most up to date legislation setting motortax categories and rates for those categories.

This bit represents (defines) what we know as commercial vehicles:


What is relevant here is that it mentions "vehicles constructed or adapted for use and used for the conveyance of goods or burden of any other description in the course of trade or business".

It applies to vehicles used for business, but doesn't state anywhere "solely used for business".

Therefore if vehicle taxed under that category is used for business, there's nothing in that legislation stopping anyone using that vehicle for private purposes as well (f.e. as second type of use).

The 2013 Act isn't relevant as it deals with tax rates and categories and how they are defined, it does not deal with the conditions of issue and use of motor tax - for that you deal solely with the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act 1952 and it's secondary legislation, the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992.

CiniO wrote: »

IMO motor tax offices are requestion "goods only declaration" purely out of the blue without any grounds in the law.

The RF111A was issued in 2008 (to replace the then RF4 which was a similar declaration), by the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government as a ministerial direction under powers afforded by the Roads Act, 1920, the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act 1952, the Finance Act 1976 and the Finance (No. 2) Act 1992 as the statutory declaration required under the 1992 regulations.

rionzion wrote: »

I got started on this because it seems every time i change my van there's a new set of "required" documents and they always manage to send me away without a tax disc!

The RF111a became applicable in 2008 having replaced the then RF4 (which was in force since 1995).

rionzion wrote: »

i've read through the legislation you linked, and the associated legislation, and i totally agree... i still cant find anything that contradicts what is stated in the 1992 regulations, essentially if you have a goods vehicle, that is registered as such, you can prove that you are insured to drive it and you have the correct fee, the authority is required under law to give you the correct license for that vehicle.

I'm still wondering if there's more to it... surely somebody should have spoken up about this by now?!

There is more to it, you seem to be solely focusing on Article 3 of the 1992 regulations which is where you are going wrong, you need to also look at Articles 2 and 7 and the Second Schedule and more importantly the various amendments made and the 1952 Act.

rionzion wrote: »

I will have a look at the finance acts...

Forget the Finance Acts, all you need to look at is the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act 1952 and the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992.

rionzion wrote: »

To say that the RF111A is a prescribed form under S2 is stretching it a bit?

rionzion wrote: »

apologies, i see you meant schedule 2 not article 2.. still i dont see form rf111a under the prescribed forms??

Yes the RF111a is the prescribed form under the Second Schedule (as amended).

rionzion wrote: »

To say that the RF111A is a prescribed form under S2 is stretching it a bit? unless i missed something it merely states that an application must be made, not that a form must be completed and that any and all information requested on that form must be provided, whatever that information may be.

You may want to re-read Article 2:-

2. (1) ( a ) Subject to the provisions of sub-articles (2) and (4) of this article the owner of a vehicle who desires to obtain a licence for it shall make application by means of a prescribed declaration in the scheduled form to the licensing authority in whose area such vehicle will be ordinarily kept, or where the vehicle will not be ordinarily kept in any one area, to the licensing authority of the area in which is situated the principal place of business or the usual place of abode of the owner.

The RF111a became the prescribed form under the schedule when the 1992 regulations Second Schedule was amended in 2008 by the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) (No.2) Regulations 2008.

rionzion wrote: »

As i said earlier, Article 3 is very clear that, subject to the criteria mentioned, an authority shall grant a license.

Spot on when you say "subject to the criteria" - but read the criteria of Article 3.

What you need to remember is that Article 3 is in relation to the issue of the motor tax, not the application stage. The application stage must be satisfied before moving to the issue stage and the RF111a is part of the application stage.

You have missed the most important parts of Article 3, which I have highlighted below: -

3. Upon the receipt by a licensing authority of an application for a licence, upon compliance by the applicant with the provisions of sub-article (5) of article 2 of these Regulations, and upon payment by the applicant of the amount of duty appropriate to the vehicle, the licensing authority, if they are satisfied that the vehicle in respect of which the prescribed declaration is made is one in respect of which they are authorised to issue a licence and that the licence applied for is the appropriate licence for the vehicle specified, shall—

As you can see Article 3 does not apply until there is an application for a licence (which is as per Article 2 which I quoted above), and that they are satisfied with regards the prescribed declaration. Both are the qualifying criteria for Article 3 to apply.

rionzion wrote: »

besides, this is the very legislation cited on the RF111A form as giving the authority the right to ask about the applicants self-employment status - which it clearly DOESNT!

The RF111a states:-

Please read the following note before completing this declaration.

Article 3 of the Road Vehicles (Registration & Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992 provides that a licensing authority must be satisfied that a vehicle is correctly taxed. In this regard, in order to tax a vehicle at the goods rate all applicants must confirm that they are registered for tax purposes as a business with the Revenue Commissioners by providing their Revenue Registration identity number. Please note these details are strictly confidential and are for the sole purpose of ascertaining entitlement to tax a vehicle as a goods vehicle.

That statement is correct, again read the highlighted part of Article 3:-

3. Upon the receipt by a licensing authority of an application for a licence, upon compliance by the applicant with the provisions of sub-article (5) of article 2 of these Regulations, and upon payment by the applicant of the amount of duty appropriate to the vehicle, the licensing authority, if they are satisfied that the vehicle in respect of which the prescribed declaration is made is one in respect of which they are authorised to issue a licence and that the licence applied for is the appropriate licence for the vehicle specified, shall—

If you are not self employed or otherwise using the vehicle for your employers business then how can they be satisfied to the requirements of commercial motor tax? They can't.

S2 of the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act 1952 (as amended) forbids the use of a commercially taxed vehicle for any other use (i.e private use), it also mentions occuptaion, so if you are not self employed or using for your employer only then you are using it for private use and can't avail of commercial motor tax.

MojoMaker

Honest to God, would you stop annoying him with facts, he just wants cheap tax with no hassle.

GM228

MojoMaker wrote: »

Honest to God, would you stop annoying him with facts, he just wants cheap tax with no hassle.

Hmmm......

rionzion wrote: »

Can any legal eagles out there tell me what legislation gives a local authority the right to demand confirmation of self employed status in order to tax a commercial vehicle as such?

<SNIP>

unless somebody can show me any other legislation or regulation that covers this

He who asks, receives.

rionzion

Thank you very much Gm228, you have a very good understanding of the law! I look forward to reading through the relevant legislation.

rionzion

rionzion wrote: »

...................

the problem is this: nowhere does it state that the authority must satisfy themselves that the applicant is suitable for the taxation category, only that the vehicle is................

The goods only declaration is for the vehicle.

rionzion

GM228 wrote: »

S2 of the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act 1952 (as amended) forbids the use of a commercially taxed vehicle for any other use (i.e private use), it also mentions occuptaion, so if you are not self employed or using for your employer only then you are using it for private use and can't avail of commercial motor tax.

- i can't see where it mentions occupation under section 2. It does state that where a vehicle is used for more than one purpose under tax classification, the higher rate must be charged.

rionzion

rionzion wrote: »

- i can't see where it mentions occupation under section 2. It does state that where a vehicle is used for more than one purpose under tax classification, the higher rate must be charged.

Indeed.
So if you are using a commercially taxed vehicle for private use as well as commercial use than the higher private rate should be paid.

So if you are using it for commercial only use this is declared in the Goods Only Declaration form

rionzion

Ok so i now know that the RF111a form is actually prescribed under law (what a relief i though i was going mad!).

What i cant quite get my head around is how this seemingly simple and straightforward form enables any local authority to ask any proof they deem necessary to the end of ensuring that drivers of goods vehicles do not use their vehicles for any other purpose. This is he case in point: Clare County Council used to just ask for the RF111a to be completed and stamped by the guards and that was it. Then they started to ask for confirmation of self employed status. An original letter from revenue confirming registration as self employed used to suffice. Now they ask for a specific letter, dated in the current year confirming name, address, registration number and occupation. Additionally they also require proof of insurance for commercial purposes and also if any other driver is listed on the insurance a confirmation in writing that the other driver works also in connection with the self employed business. It seems also that Clare CC dont feel it is necessary for them to explain any of this to applicants since they do not issue any guidance notes with the rf111a form and wait for the hapless individual to turn up in good faith ready with what they think are all the necessary documents only to be sent away to get more proofs. Even if you telephone in advance to check what you need to bring they dont tell you.

Ultimately there is no way any authority can be sure beyond the shadow of a doubt that a vehicle is not being used for any other purpose than commercial so all we have to fall back on are the forms prescribed under law. The RF111a makes no mention of the kind of proofs Clare CC are asking for. I have no idea if other authorities are asking for the same proofs or not but surely there should be transparency and some standardization of the whole process.

GM228

rionzion wrote: »

- i can't see where it mentions occupation under section 2.

See here:-

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1958/act/25/section/20/enacted/en/html

GM228

rionzion wrote: »

Ok so i now know that the RF111a form is actually prescribed under law (what a relief i though i was going mad!).

What i cant quite get my head around is how this seemingly simple and straightforward form enables any local authority to ask any proof they deem necessary to the end of ensuring that drivers of goods vehicles do not use their vehicles for any other purpose. This is he case in point: Clare County Council used to just ask for the RF111a to be completed and stamped by the guards and that was it. Then they started to ask for confirmation of self employed status. An original letter from revenue confirming registration as self employed used to suffice. Now they ask for a specific letter, dated in the current year confirming name, address, registration number and occupation. Additionally they also require proof of insurance for commercial purposes and also if any other driver is listed on the insurance a confirmation in writing that the other driver works also in connection with the self employed business. It seems also that Clare CC dont feel it is necessary for them to explain any of this to applicants since they do not issue any guidance notes with the rf111a form and wait for the hapless individual to turn up in good faith ready with what they think are all the necessary documents only to be sent away to get more proofs. Even if you telephone in advance to check what you need to bring they dont tell you.

Ultimately there is no way any authority can be sure beyond the shadow of a doubt that a vehicle is not being used for any other purpose than commercial so all we have to fall back on are the forms prescribed under law. The RF111a makes no mention of the kind of proofs Clare CC are asking for. I have no idea if other authorities are asking for the same proofs or not but surely there should be transparency and some standardization of the whole process.

They can ask for whatever they want under ministerial direction.

The requirements to ask for such are outlined in ministerial circular MT 10/2005 (I can't link the document - but I can quote it as I have a copy):-

Having regard to Article 3 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992, which provides that a licensing authority must be satisfied that a vehicle is correctly taxed, the applicant, in particular in relation to small vans and adapted goods vehicles, should be asked for supporting documentation which can include but is not limited to

 evidence of registration for VAT;
 a Tax Clearance Certificate;
 a commercial insurance certificate;
 a copy of their “Notice of Tax Registration Form"

This applies to all CCs and they can basically use whatever means necessesary to satisfy the requirements of motor tax.

Have a read of these also:-

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/seanad2010110900008?opendocument

The legal position is that to be taxed as a goods vehicle, a vehicle must be constructed or adapted for that purpose and used solely in the course of trade or business. Under section 2 of the Finance (Excise Duties) (Vehicles) Act 1952, if a vehicle is used in a condition or manner which would attract motor tax at a higher rate, tax then becomes payable at that rate. In other words, if a goods vehicle is not used solely in the course of trade or business, it must, like all other private vehicles, be taxed at the private rate of motor tax.

Under Article 3 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992, a licensing authority must be satisfied that it is authorised to issue the licence applied for and, accordingly, that it is the appropriate licence for the vehicle. It is thus open to a motor tax office to seek additional documentation to support an application for a goods vehicle licence. Such documentation may include a certificate of commercial insurance or evidence of registration for VAT purposes or, at the discretion of the licensing authority concerned, any other appropriate document. Provision of a VAT certificate would assist in satisfying a local authority that a goods vehicle licence is appropriate, but other documentation is also acceptable. It would not be expected that any person genuinely using a vehicle in the course of trade or business should have a difficulty supplying documentation to support a claim for what is, in effect, a concessionary rate of motor tax.

Form RF111A, goods declaration form, which may also be required by the licensing authority, has been in existence for a number of years and filling it in is not a new requirement. It constitutes the statement by the applicant that the vehicle is being used in the course of trade or business. This declaration should not need to be sought at every renewal once particulars of the vehicle have not changed, but it is normally sought at the time of first taxing as a goods vehicle

http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/DebatesWebPack.nsf/takes/dail2011050300280?opendocument

Under Article 3 of the Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations 1992, a licensing authority must be satisfied that it is authorised to issue the licence applied for and accordingly, that it is the appropriate licence for the vehicle. It is thus open to a motor tax office to seek backing documentation to support an application for a goods vehicle licence, which is in effect a concessionary rate of tax. Such documentation could include, but is not limited to, a certificate of commercial insurance, evidence of registration for VAT or a Tax Clearance Certificate, or any other document that would assist in satisfying the licensing authority as to the basis for the application. It would not be expected that any person genuinely using a vehicle in the course of trade or business would have any difficulty providing such documentary evidence if requested to do so.

elperello

The OP's original point is valid.

There should be a simple straightforward list of the required documentation made available to applicants. Some councils have it on their website. If your paperwork is in order you should get the disc, if not you should not. It's just good public service not rocket science.

Even if you do get it taxed your woes won't end there. Due to the restrictive nature of the RF 111a declaration business people and tradesmen all over the country are being turned into lawbreakers on a daily basis. Just picking up a bit of furniture or dropping a kid off at school with your van is forbidden.

Isambard

elperello wrote: »

The OP's original point is valid.

There should be a simple straightforward list of the required documentation made available to applicants. Some councils have it on their website. If your paperwork is in order you should get the disc, if not you should not. It's just good public service not rocket science.

Even if you do get it taxed your woes won't end there. Due to the restrictive nature of the RF 111a declaration business people and tradesmen all over the country are being turned into lawbreakers on a daily basis. Just picking up a bit of furniture or dropping a kid off at school with your van is forbidden.

It was always the case that you were breaking the Law by using the vehicle for other than commercial purposes, it never stopped us doing it of course, but it's nothing new

elperello

Isambard wrote: »

It was always the case that you were breaking the Law by using the vehicle for other than commercial purposes, it never stopped us doing it of course, but it's nothing new

You are correct but it's still a silly impractical rule that puts ordinary tradespersons, farmers, shopkeepers etc. on the wrong side of the law on a daily basis for no good reason. If you are self employed in business and have a van its almost impossible to avoid a certain element of private use. The rules should recognise this and accommodate it.

Del2005

elperello wrote: »

If you are self employed in business and have a van its almost impossible to avoid a certain element of private use. The rules should recognise this and accommodate it.

They do accommodate it, you can pay private tax if you can't be sure that you will use it 100% commercial.

uck51js9zml2yt

All the MTO looks at is if your insurance certificate says "for business use".
It doesn't care if your also using the vehicle for personal use.
The Gardai might though!

elperello

Del2005 wrote: »

They do accommodate it, you can pay private tax if you can't be sure that you will use it 100% commercial.

The private tax is for people who are not in business and want a van for one reason or another. Maybe they have a hobby that entails moving around bulky objects for instance.

My point is that genuine business users should not be pushed into a grey area by a stupid unenforceable restriction.

100% commercial is almost impossible for the self-employed.

GM228

rionzion wrote: »

This is he case in point: Clare County Council used to just ask for the RF111a to be completed and stamped by the guards and that was it. Then they started to ask for confirmation of self employed status. An original letter from revenue confirming registration as self employed used to suffice. Now they ask for a specific letter, dated in the current year confirming name, address, registration number and occupation. Additionally they also require proof of insurance for commercial purposes and also if any other driver is listed on the insurance a confirmation in writing that the other driver works also in connection with the self employed business. It seems also that Clare CC dont feel it is necessary for them to explain any of this to applicants since they do not issue any guidance notes with the rf111a form and wait for the hapless individual to turn up in good faith ready with what they think are all the necessary documents only to be sent away to get more proofs. Even if you telephone in advance to check what you need to bring they dont tell you.

Ahem

https://www.clarecoco.ie/roads-and-transport/motor-tax/tax-a-goods-vehicle-for-the-first-time/

Isambard

elperello wrote: »

The private tax is for people who are not in business and want a van for one reason or another. Maybe they have a hobby that entails moving around bulky objects for instance.

My point is that genuine business users should not be pushed into a grey area by a stupid unenforceable restriction.

100% commercial is almost impossible for the self-employed.

why so? they can always buy a car for the private use part of their life. The thing is business users take advantage of the cheap tax and use vehicles privately. It's always been so and it's always been illegal. Just not enforced. I think they'd be very unwise to start complaining about it.....