Honorary Degrees: UCD to Brian Cowen v. UL to Jack Charlton

feargale

So Ed Walsh has handed back his UCD doctorate in protest against a UCD honorary doctorate awarded to Brian Cowen. But isn't it a bit rich that in 1994, while Ed Walsh was president, UL made an identical award to Jack Charlton?
At least Cowen ran a country, however inefficiently. Charlton's award arose from knowing how to kick a bloody football.
I suggest that honorary doctorates are handed out too liberally in any event, sometimes as a bribe to some wealthy individual to give money to the relevant institution, too often to somebody who might be more suitably awarded an honorary junior cert.
When Dr. Charlton got his UL doctorate in 1994 I recall meeting a UL undergraduate who complained bitterly about the trouble and expense occasioned by her in her attempt to obtain a primary degree while a celeb could get a doctorate for something as trivial as football.

Dirty Dingus McGee

All honourary degrees and the likes are a complete load of bollocks.

The_Valeyard

Ed Walsh is a bit of a grumpy git who seems to hate everyone that's not Ed Walsh.

Owryan

I thought honorary doctorates were given to people who had made some sort of positive change or were successful at something.

At least jack raised the mood of the country and brought some success to the place.

Really don't see what biffo did to be honoured. He was probably the worst leader we ever had, oversaw the near ruination of the country and then went into hiding with his big fat pension.

He's been in seclusion for the last few years so why the fcuk did he get it?

Donald Trump

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

All honourary degrees and the likes are a complete load of bollocks.

They're as valid as "normal" degrees.

An Arts degree from UCD is equally as valid as is a Medical Degree from that college. Preempting expected responses from people who don't understand simple things, I am not saying that those two degrees are equivalent in any other way. I am not saying that an Arts degree from UCD is equal to a Medical degree, nor will it allow you to practice medicine. However it is a valid degree. And so is any ordinary degree.

If you want to talk about equivalences, there is a slight difference between a UCD (Arts) degree and a roll of Andrex........I'd wipe my arse with the Andrex but..... :P

Arghus

Honoury degrees are nothing but PR puff that should be done away with.

Arghus

Donald Trump wrote: »

They're as valid as "normal" degrees.

An Arts degree from UCD is equally as valid as is a Medical Degree from that college. Preempting expected responses from people who don't understand simple things, I am not saying that those two degrees are equivalent in any other way. I am not saying that an Arts degree from UCD is equal to a Medical degree, nor will it allow you to practice medicine. However it is a valid degree. And so is any ordinary degree.

If you want to talk about equivalences, there is a slight difference between a UCD (Arts) degree and a roll of Andrex........I'd wipe my arse with the Andrex but..... :P

You're talking waffle mate.

Donald Trump

Arghus wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

They're as valid as "normal" degrees.

An Arts degree from UCD is equally as valid as is a Medical Degree from that college. Preempting expected responses from people who don't understand simple things, I am not saying that those two degrees are equivalent in any other way. I am not saying that an Arts degree from UCD is equal to a Medical degree, nor will it allow you to practice medicine. However it is a valid degree. And so is any ordinary degree.

If you want to talk about equivalences, there is a slight difference between a UCD (Arts) degree and a roll of Andrex........I'd wipe my arse with the Andrex but..... :P

You're talking waffle mate.

No. You just don't understand how degrees are awarded. At least traditionally.
People think coursework + exams = degrees. That is not the case. Degrees are awarded by the Board of the University. If the Board decides to award you a degree, then that is what gives you a degree. It just so happens that in the majority of cases, the justification for doing so is on your exams etc.
Also, you don't have the degree until you are conferred with it. If you do all your exams, get 100% in each of them but don't apply for the degree, and either attend the ceremony or have it conferred in absentia, you don't have a degree.
This is the way it is done in Dublin University.

Arghus

But they aren't a degree in the common real world ordinarily understood sense. They can't be used to signify educational achievement, people can't use the honorific title etc, etc.They are a nice thing done for someone to make everyone involved feel good about themselves: that's it.

Please stop trying to argue that black is white.

cbreeze

Universities employ PR departments. They continually pump out content to try to keep themselves in the forefront of the media in competition with other institutions. In order to attract attention/publicity in the off-season universities present their honorary degree candidates as being worthy of the attention of the press. The further down the ranking of the university, the more unacademic/outrageous/doolally/off the wall the candidate seems to be. Mr Cowen meets all four of the criteria mentioned in the last sentence. It would be interesting to read the citation to be proffered in respect of this former Taoiseach. Were I an NUI graduate I would rip up my parchment in shame!

Donald Trump

Arghus wrote: »

But they aren't a degree in the common real world ordinarily understood sense. They can't be used to signify educational achievement, people can't use the honorific title etc, etc.They are a nice thing done for someone to make everyone involved feel good about themselves: that's it.

Please stop trying to argue that black is white.

Who is arguing that black is white? An honorary degree is a degree. The clue is in the name. Same as an medical degree is a degree. Same as an arts degree is a degree. I don't expect an Arts degree holder to be able to do the same as the medical student. But UCD will award both. If I'm an medical student, the fact that the arts degree holder can't do what I do doesn't make either any less of a degree. An honorary degree is not trying to claim that the recipient studied or wrote a thesis.

A degree is just an official stamp/title/recognition awarded by an academic institution. Some institutions/courses have continuous assessment where all years go towards your degree mark. Some have everything in the final year, or maybe two years. One person might do a subject in TCD where 50% of degree mark comes from each of final two years and the other person might do the same subject in UCD where the degree is awarded solely on the final year. Both people score 100% in year 3 and 50% in year 4 in broadly similar classes each year. Both are awarded widely different classes of degree.

There is no "absolute" level to award a degree. It is up to the institution to come up with it's own rules and it is important for the reputation of the institution to uphold standards. The decision for them to award that bit of paper at the end of the course is solely theirs. If they want to award something to someone based on experience rather than passing an exam, then they are entitled to do so. No offence, but I would be confident that their committee are probably better judges of "educational achievement" than you. Do you want to define "educational achievement" as passing a specific set of exams? 

These honorary degrees are usually doctorates. Doctor comes from the latin word that means "teacher" and a doctorate was a licence to teach. It signified that you were an expert in a topic. By giving an honorary doctorate, the institution is just giving their stamp that the recipient is competent to a certain standard in their topic/field. If you misunderstand that degree means "passed loads of specific exams" and you are annoyed that someone got one without passing those exams then that is your misunderstanding and misinterpretation. 

If you think that the value and measure of any education is solely in the bit of paper then you missed out on most of that potential education.

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

I am not saying that an Arts degree from UCD is equal to a Medical degree, nor will it allow you to practice medicine. However it is a valid degree. And so is any ordinary degree.

But both of them are ordinary degrees, obtained after a course of education.

The difference here is that we are talking about the distinction between those degrees, and honorary ones, which do not require the completion of any course at all, and are merely handed out on the basis of reputation.

So Ryan Giggs and Kermit the Frog have them. Now you can say all you want about why an inanimate puppet deserved that recognition and Kermit's competency in his field (or perhaps pond), and a degree is a degree is a degree, but many will feel that it kinda demeans the value of the degree that others with the same qualifications earned through study.

Hannibal_Smith

Ah here. The quarter finals of the World Cup! The quarter finals! My god you'd had to have been living under a rock to not get swept up by the euphoria! I'd say if he'd ran for president he'd have got it :pac: Achieving great things in sport is always recognised isn't it? Didn't Sonia O'Sullivan get an honorary degree from UCC?

What did Brian Cowen do to deserve it?

Winterlong

Deleted User wrote: »

The difference here is that we are talking about the distinction between those degrees, and honorary ones, which do not require the completion of any course at all, and are merely handed out on the basis of reputation.

Exactly. It is not as if people who have a 'proper' degree are competing in the job market with people with honorary degrees.

The whole concept seems daft to me but it is just PR for the person and the institution.

griffin100

feargale wrote: »

So Ed Walsh has handed back his UCD doctorate in protest against a UCD honorary doctorate awarded to Brian Cowen. But isn't it a bit rich that in 1994, while Ed Walsh was president, UL made an identical award to Jack Charlton?
At least Cowen ran a country, however inefficiently. Charlton's award arose from knowing how to kick a bloody football.
I suggest that honorary doctorates are handed out too liberally in any event, sometimes as a bribe to some wealthy individual to give money to the relevant institution, too often to somebody who might be more suitably awarded an honorary junior cert.
When Dr. Charlton got his UL doctorate in 1994 I recall meeting a UL undergraduate who complained bitterly about the trouble and expense occasioned by her in her attempt to obtain a primary degree while a celeb could get a doctorate for something as trivial as football.

UCD didn't give an honarary degree to Cowen, the NUI did.

SEPT 23 1989

What age are you OP nobody who was lucky enough to be alive during Italia 90 would have that attitude towards Charlton

Mardy Bum

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Ah here. The quarter finals of the World Cup! The quarter finals! My god you'd had to have been living under a rock to not get swept up by the euphoria! I'd say if he'd ran for president he'd have got it :pac: Achieving great things in sport is always recognised isn't it? Didn't Sonia O'Sullivan get an honorary degree from UCC?

What did Brian Cowen do to deserve it?

The vast majority of sports stars who get doctorates don't deserve them. It is all for PR.

[Fact]Ed Walsh is a superstar cúnt, superstar hypocrite and, given that in 1997 he received over €300,000 tax free upon his retirement from the University of Limerick and has been getting over €100,000 every year since as a pension on top of it, superstar parasite on the Irish taxpayer.[/Fact]

That the entire class of alcohol-soaked, Brit copying layabouts that constitute the pseudo-profession of journalism in Dublin give this pompous hypocritical rightwing chump a stage (and payment) for his trolling against the poor and lower-paid public servants is absolutely par for the course in the snivelling incestuous little cult that passes as the establishment media in Dublin. "Greater efficiency" in the entire public sector begins with tackling Ed Walsh's pension.

Cowen should hand back his doctorate as an objection to the NUI giving one to the personification of smug pompous git that is Walsh.

washman3

Deleted User wrote: »

[Fact]Ed Walsh is a superstar cúnt, superstar hypocrite and, given that in 1997 he received over €300,000 tax free upon his retirement from the University of Limerick and has been getting over €100,000 every year since as a pension on top of it, superstar parasite on the Irish taxpayer.[/Fact]

That the entire class of alcohol-soaked, Brit copying layabouts that constitute the pseudo-profession of journalism in Dublin give this pompous hypocritical rightwing chump a stage (and payment) for his trolling against the poor and lower-paid public servants is absolutely par for the course in the snivelling incestuous little cult that passes as the establishment media in Dublin. "Greater efficiency" in the entire public sector begins with tackling Ed Walsh's pension.

Cowen should hand back his doctorate as an objection to the NUI giving one to the personification of smug pompous git that is Walsh.

Well said......!!!

Donald Trump

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you want to talk about equivalences, there is a slight difference between a UCD (Arts) degree and a roll of Andrex........I'd wipe my arse with the Andrex but..... :P

This sounds like plagiarism on the graffiti scribbled over a toilet roll holder in UCD Arts Block in the early 1990s - 'Arts degree dispenser: please take one.' :P

Deleted User

Deleted User wrote: »

[Fact]Ed Walsh is a superstar cúnt, superstar hypocrite and, given that in 1997 he received over €300,000 tax free upon his retirement from the University of Limerick and has been getting over €100,000 every year since as a pension on top of it, superstar parasite on the Irish taxpayer.[/Fact]

Some of the very well paid heads of Universities have displayed an extarordinary level of arrogance and self entitlement. Remember the poor President of UCC struggling to make ends meet on a quarter mill per annum...

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/life-is-a-struggle-on-232000-says-university-president-26895973.html

Donald Trump

griffin100 wrote: »

feargale wrote: »

So Ed Walsh has handed back his UCD doctorate in protest against a UCD honorary doctorate awarded to Brian Cowen. But isn't it a bit rich that in 1994, while Ed Walsh was president, UL made an identical award to Jack Charlton?
At least Cowen ran a country, however inefficiently. Charlton's award arose from knowing how to kick a bloody football.
I suggest that honorary doctorates are handed out too liberally in any event, sometimes as a bribe to some wealthy individual to give money to the relevant institution, too often to somebody who might be more suitably awarded an honorary junior cert.
When Dr. Charlton got his UL doctorate in 1994 I recall meeting a UL undergraduate who complained bitterly about the trouble and expense occasioned by her in her attempt to obtain a primary degree while a celeb could get a doctorate for something as trivial as football.

UCD didn't give an honarary degree to Cowen, the NUI did.

Well I assume that all degrees are granted by NUI rather than the specific college?
I was actually going to make a point in a previous post about degree awarding bodies but I had already written a lot. (You'll notice how I did make the distinction "Dublin University" rather than TCD). I recall DIT degrees being awarded by Dublin University up until recently enough! Those students, having never went to a class in TCD, sat an exam or submitted an assignment to any lecturer in TCD, ended up being awarded a degree by Dublin University. Are those degrees invalid?

feargale

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Ah here. The quarter finals of the World Cup! The quarter finals! My god you'd had to have been living under a rock to not get swept up by the euphoria! I'd say if he'd ran for president he'd have got it :pac: Achieving great things in sport is always recognised isn't it? Didn't Sonia O'Sullivan get an honorary degree from UCC?

What did Brian Cowen do to deserve it?

I never said that Brian Cowen deserved it, quite the contrary. My whole point is that honorary degrees are being handed out like snuff at a wake. As Conor74 has pointed out this demeans degrees.
An honorary doctorate should be confined to the likes of George Washington Carver who was born into slavery, had limited educational opportunities and made a phenomenal contribution to biology and agriculture.
Your post underlines the lack of perspective and proportion in this country where sport is concerned. Don't get me wrong. I enjoy sport as much as anyone. But I do not regard it as a matter of life and death. There is a place for everything. Some years ago I visited the town hall in Maó, capital of Menorca and there I saw a wall bedecked with about 20 portraits of eminent natives, people who had distinguished themselves in medicine, science, government etc. ( not a sportsman in sight. ) The equivalent in an Irish town would have everybody who ever kicked a football for the county.
Ryan Giggs and Jack Charlton have been handsomely compensated for their efforts, to an extent that most of us can only dream about. Do we need to devalue degrees so that they can "feel good about themselves"?

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

What age are you OP nobody who was lucky enough to be alive during Italia 90 would have that attitude towards Charlton

I experienced the euphoria of Ronnie Delany's Olympic gold medal in 1956. Does that answer your question?

griffin100 wrote: »

UCD didn't give an honarary degree to Cowen, the NUI did.

Thank you. Correction noted. We will nominate you for the gold medal at the next AGM of UCD's L&H.

Arghus

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you think that the value and measure of any education is solely in the bit of paper then you missed out on most of that potential education.

That's precisely what I am not saying. An honoury degree/ doctorate is just basically a piece of paper: as opposed to all other types!

Whatever way you want to phrase it, a degree or any other level of award by an educational body correspondeds in 99.9% of cases to a certain level of academic achievement. The exception being honorary degrees, which represent nothing more than a sort of lifetime achievement award and are frequently handed to individuals who have excelled in fields well beyond the awarding institutions purview.

I don't know why you have become fixated on the question of validity and the semantics and minutiae of what body awards who - probably because you don't seem to have much of an argument here.

No one is disputing that they are awarded by educational bodies with all the pomp and circumstance that one would expect and, yes, they do exist - so, yes, they are "valid" in that sense.

But just because this is the case it doesn't follow that they actually carry any weight in the real world.
A universitys bread and butter is learning and education and the issue of awards to students is part and parcel of that. The honorary doctorate has nothing to do with any of that. Yes, they are awarded by an educational body but that doesn't mean that they actually mean anything, really. As someone has said Kermit The Frog has an honorary doctorate, does that mean that his doctorate is as meaningful as one handed out to a PHD student? The validity of the award is totally irrelevant. That not on par with other educational awards, they don't mean the same thing - what's "validity"got to do with it?

Anyway, I'm done with this debate now, because no doubt your response is just going to consist of more irrelevant whataboutery and guff.

endacl

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

What did Brian Cowen do to deserve it?

Won the World Cup?

feargale

endacl wrote: »

Won the World Cup?

Ah no. You're confusing him with Charlie Haughey who won the Tour de France.

Donald Trump

Arghus wrote: »

Donald Trump wrote: »

If you think that the value and measure of any education is solely in the bit of paper then you missed out on most of that potential education.

That's precisely what I am not saying. An honoury degree/ doctorate is just basically a piece of paper: as opposed to all other types!

Whatever way you want to phrase it, a degree or any other level of award by an educational body correspondeds in 99.9% of cases to a certain level of academic achievement. The exception being honorary degrees, which represent nothing more than a sort of lifetime achievement award and are frequently handed to individuals who have excelled in fields well beyond the awarding institutions purview.

I don't know why you have become fixated on the question of validity and the semantics and minutiae of what body awards who - probably because you don't seem to have much of an argument here.

No one is disputing that they are awarded by educational bodies with all the pomp and circumstance that one would expect and, yes, they do exist - so, yes, they are "valid" in that sense.

But just because this is the case it doesn't follow that they actually carry any weight in the real world.
A universitys bread and butter is learning and education and the issue of awards to students is part and parcel of that. The honorary doctorate has nothing to do with any of that. Yes, they are awarded by an educational body but that doesn't mean that they actually mean anything, really. As someone has said Kermit The Frog has an honorary doctorate, does that mean that his doctorate is as meaningful as one handed out to a PHD student?  The validity of the award is totally irrelevant. That not on par with other educational awards, they don't mean the same thing - what's "validity"got to do with it?

Anyway, I'm done with this debate now, because no doubt your response is just going to consist of more irrelevant whataboutery and guff.

Again, this is all down to your misunderstanding. You are assuming that degrees are all equal and then trying to imply that I am arguing that an honorary degree is equal to a "normal" degree when I said it wasn't. Let them award what they want.

An honorary degree is a degree. It is not the same as a medical degree. It is not the same as an Arts degree. A medical student cannot claim that their medical degree is demeaned by someone being awarded a 3 year Arts degree. No realistic or reasonably person would try to claim that that Arts degree is academically as rigorous as the medical degree.
This appears to be your argument:
It's not fair. I have a degree. I know that in order to get a degree it means that I had to work for 4 years and pass exams and do lots of assignments and now someone who doesn't have to do those things is being awarded the same thing. It should be stopped as it demeans my degree.

This could be the medical students argument:
It's not fair. I have a degree. I know that in order to get a degree it means that I had to work for 5 years and pass exams and do lots of assignments and training and now someone who did a couple of hours each week reading about ancient art is being awarded the same thing. It should be stopped as it demeans my degree.

Both arguments are equally as valid, which is that they are not valid at all! As mentioned before the honorary degrees would tend to be advanced degrees in any case. If I have a PhD from studying nanoscience in UCD (obligatory Andrex reference here) and they want to award an honorary doctorate to Biffo I don't give a shite any more than I would that they might award a PhD to someone for an academic study of contemporary dance. I can be pissed off only if I know that the reasons that they gave it to him were unjustified.  If they want to award ordinary degrees even though other people have to study for an honours degree, I also don't give a crap.
You can get an Ordinary degree from Trinity if you fail, or do not do, your fourth year. It is still a degree. It's just not worth fuck all so very few people take that option. The fact that they will award that does not take from a 4 years honours degree.

The reason that I talked about awarding institutions was that if you understand the process, you might appreciate the subtle differences between passing exams and getting that stamp/certificate.  It is a distinct process and that is what makes the honorary degree as "legitimate" as a "normal" degree. I tried my best but the logic appears to have not been comprehended. 

I've spent too much time on this. Adios.

_Dara_

Donald Trump wrote: »

You can get an Ordinary degree from Trinity if you fail, or do not do, your fourth year. It is still a degree. It's just not worth fuck all so very few people take that option.

Aye but the three years done in Trinity still represents a lot more toil than someone rocking up to receive their honorary degree. A pass degree from Trinity is still worth much more than an honorary degree, IMO. You could probably use that pass degree to start halfway through another related degree course elsewhere. You wouldn't be able to do that with an honorary degree.

jelutong

Brian Cowan= Dr.Debt.

CatFromHue

Walsh's reasons for why Cowen shouldn't get an honorary degree are pretty sound. You can't say Cowen deserves one for what he did when he was in charge of the country or when he was finance minster.