HRI - the chickens are coming to roost

theaceofspies

One look at the background of this photo taken today and you wonder why they are 'redveloping' the Curragh

http://www.irishracing.com/news?headline=Alex-might-make-into-a-nice-little-sprinter&prid=184282

seen more people on a deserted beach

BumperD

They have been careful with tv coverage and photos from the track. That photo says it all. Major promotions required when new facility opens . The old facility was terrible/smelly

Francie Barrett

BumperD wrote: »

They have been careful with tv coverage and photos from the track. That photo says it all. Major promotions required when new facility opens . The old facility was terrible/smelly

If they offered free admission, they still probably wouldn't even fill it outside of the likes of Derby day.

Lt Dan

The attendances for the Irish Champion Weekend , with 3 important Group 1s at the Curragh, is pathetic even Leopardstown, which is in the city and rarely clashing with anything major in Dublin, attendance for the ICS /matron ain't great at about 13000. The race has a fine record for future Arc winners (not just the last two years) Breeders Cup and other races. It is not like the admission price for both days is expensive.

Remarkable,there will be more people attending Galway at Any given day of next week, than two of the biggest days in the Irish flat season, outside the Derby. Peasants, the lot of them.

I haven't missed the St Leger day for years, even in the old days when it stupidly clashed with the English version. Won't be going this year not for love or money (and that race might get a great turn out if Aga Khan horse was to come, along with, wishful thinking, Big Orange and OSG -This year might be the year for him to go to Oz?)

They will regret telling people to stay away.

Car99

As a non gambler / horse racing fan, we went to a "family day " at the races recently and after an hour at the course when the kids were finished with the playground and pony rides we didn't hang around as nothing else going on . Unlesss youre a gambler not much else going on so goure never going to fill the stands unless it the biggest events of the year.

diomed

The Curragh is a bit soulless. I went for years, and had an annual badge.
One day I had one of the badge / swipe card, can't remember which. I also had ID. But I was accused at the entrance of passing my card out to allow someone else get free admission. I was amazed. When inside I spoke to the manager (Hensey?).

They can forget the lovely girls contests. That is only of interest to themselves and a small number of women. And women are in the minority at races.
Epsom has a carnival on Derby day, and stalls where you can buy souvenirs, books, pictures. The Curragh has hundreds of acres, and they can't think of any use for it.

They should go to the ploughing championships and pick up a few pointers.

Avatar MIA

The Irish Greyhound Board made a bags of spending so much money on their Limerick stadium.

Are HRI following in the same "track"?

diomed

When I was at Flemington racecourse in 2003 for Melbourne Cup day and racing on the following two days they had a petting zoo that was very popular with children.
Other attractions I've seen in Ireland (not on a racecourse) - a wild bird display, owls and hawks.
At the ploughing championships they had young children riding their ponies, and having little relay races of about fifty yards on horseback.
Slides, climbing frames, bouncy castles, trampolines are something children have seen too many times.

collie0708

Hopefully as part of the redevelopment they look at how to improve the customer experience as even derby day has become poor with simply things like long queues at the bars, limited food offering etc

Having been to a number of the English race days they seem to have far better facilities and provide more entertainment options and seem to attract far better crowds.

Francie Barrett

diomed wrote: »

The Curragh is a bit soulless. I went for years, and had an annual badge.

Yep, soulless is the word I'm afraid. Leopardstown on the other hand is completely the opposite. It's cramped, but that helps generate a good buzz. You get to see and meet so many characters around the place. I once got told that I didn't have a clue about racing by Rich Ricci of all people, stood next to Ted Walsh going mental when Foxrock won the hunter chase last February, been in a crowd that carried Dettori from the parade ring after he won on Snow Fairy back in 2012. Given the location, I don't think the Curragh will ever be that sort of place. But as others have alluded to, trying to target family days out might have it on to a winner.

Lt Dan

diomed wrote: »

The Curragh is a bit soulless. I went for years, and had an annual badge.
One day I had one of the badge / swipe card, can't remember which. I also had ID. But I was accused at the entrance of passing my card out to allow someone else get free admission. I was amazed. When inside I spoke to the manager (Hensey?).

They can forget the lovely girls contests. That is only of interest to themselves and a small number of women. And women are in the minority at races.
Epsom has a carnival on Derby day, and stalls where you can buy souvenirs, books, pictures. The Curragh has hundreds of acres, and they can't think of any use for it.

They should go to the ploughing championships and pick up a few pointers.

It is not just the lovely girls competition they have now. Men, well, I would use that term loosely, now have a competition too. They also go to great lengths with their suits, bow ties and hair. When I say they, I mean their mummies. Ghastly

Yep, could not go wrong with tips from the Ploughing. It is not like they have to be original or that it was be costly. Between the hassle of getting out there (credit a certain Dublin City bus company offer excellent service and are cheap) and how ugly it can look when it is barely full, I think Leopardstown trumps the Curragh at least for atmosphere

convert

I really hate the lovely persons competition.... Lovely girls or lovely boys.... It really wrecks my head. Fine, it gives some people something to do, but what really adds to my gall for this is the fact that the winner of the lovely girls' competition got a bigger prize that the rider who won the Ladies' Derby. Boodles sponsored both, and gave the lovely girl winner a prize (of their choice) worth €5,000, plus a weekend in the Westbury plus champagne when they went in to shop on Grafton St to select their prize. The lady rider was given a prize worth €3,000, while the winning owner and trainer were also given something from the 'luxury range' of jewellery!

Also, was at one of the meetings last July. Had tickets for the day, so didn't have to pay in, but what really riled me was the fact that families were given free entry. Those adults who did not have families or were not accompanied by children had to pay. While nice they're trying to attract families and they'd put on some entertainment for them (no idea what, I avoided that area as much as possible), I don't think it's fair to given them preferential treatment over those who don't have or decided not to bring kids.....

marvin80

Lt Dan wrote: »

The attendances for the Irish Champion Weekend , with 3 important Group 1s at the Curragh, is pathetic even Leopardstown, which is in the city and rarely clashing with anything major in Dublin, attendance for the ICS /matron ain't great at about 13000. /QUOTE]

I presume ticket sales are slow for the Champions weekend - serious amount of competitions for tickets on facebook etc..

Good discussion on twitter:

I'd like to ask for suggestions on what you, the general public think would get more people into racing, and going to the track???

https://twitter.com/MDOCallaghan/status/898861812245962752

Lt Dan

marvin80 wrote: »

Lt Dan wrote: »

The attendances for the Irish Champion Weekend , with 3 important Group 1s at the Curragh, is pathetic even Leopardstown, which is in the city and rarely clashing with anything major in Dublin, attendance for the ICS /matron ain't great at about 13000. /QUOTE]

I presume ticket sales are slow for the Champions weekend - serious amount of competitions for tickets on facebook etc..

Good discussion on twitter:

I'd like to ask for suggestions on what you, the general public think would get more people into racing, and going to the track???

https://twitter.com/MDOCallaghan/status/898861812245962752

I know I had a moan, but let me get it straight, the Irish Champions Weekend is one of the best racing weekends around. The quality of the races are up there with the top Europeans. Last year, race for race was top notch at Leopy. I will be going again this year, at least to Leoppy, not sure about the Curragh

The Irish Derby gets 25,000 + . St Stephens Day at Leoppy , despite clashing with the King George in England and dodgy weather gets well over 20 , 000 and some say it can be uncomfortable. I don't think that there is a Group 1 on the day

What annoys me is, Leopardstown do a nice job holding the event. Moyglare do their best on Sunday at the Curragh with the nice children's attraction. And most important of all, the price of tickets for general admission for both days , €35 is excellent, add a tenner for the coach on a Sunday and your laughing. Then you got the stud trails on Sunday and the Irish Stud bring out the champs of the past

Credit to O'Callaghan by the way. Between him and Ger Lyons, they are brilliant for using social media and dealing with the media . Even Aidan does his best, he might not be as Suave as Johnny G, but at least he gives his time.

diomed

marvin80 wrote: »

I'd like to ask for suggestions on what you, the general public think would get more people into racing, and going to the track???

Honesty
I think horseracing has a problem here.
My two minor instances of "ownership" taught me a lesson about people in racing - do not give money to people in horseracing.
This lesson was reinforced by the Motivator and Rock Of Gibraltar episodes in the UK.
I intend buying a mare in the November Breeding Stock sales.
As far as I can see there is nothing to protect me from sharp practices.
I've read many books about buying and selling horses at auction, and the stories are scarcely believable.

We also need horseracing to respect the rules.
The government has a rule that officials in government financed bodies serve one term.

Facilities
The old stand at The Curragh was I think built in the 1930s. The toilets were deplorable.
Does each racecourse still do its own thing i.e. are they separate businesses?
We need HRI or some central body to have a plan to rebuild much of what we have.
It would be helpful if they had a design section to give a consistent, high quality image to racecourses.
The last time I was at The Curragh there was a green scum/slime on the underside of the running rails. That gave a poor image.

I'm sure course inspections focus on safety.
Racecourse got rid of concrete posts when jockeys were killed.
Jockey helmets were introduced to lessen injuries.
Horseracing is an entertainment industry.
They need to do more than react too late to events.

There is a liquorice allsorts approach to planting of shrubs, trees, painting, entrances, carparking.
They think that adding a few non-racing related attractions like best dressed lady, childrens amusements, after racing music will fix horseracing.
Those are extras.
They need to fix the main product.

Communication
On my one visit to Doncaster for the 1997 St Leger the thing that impressed me was they had Doncaster racecourse radio.
I knew this in advance and brought a tiny radio and earphones, and listened to interviews, commentary, features on the history of the race. That was 20 years ago.
This is better imo than an occasional loudspeaker announcement that you might miss if not prepared for it.

Education
Is there an Irish website that shows what is on?
We can go to the Racing Post website and look through the cards to find Irish racing.
But I think we need an easy to view website that shows what horseracing is upcoming in Ireland today, tomorrow, next week, next month.
I would like to know the race time, distance, age (2yo, 3yo, 3yo+ ...), type (0-70 Hcap, Group 3 ...), distance, colts, fillies, both.

We need good information on the "going".
Years ago they gave the going as "good" and after the first race there was an announcement that the jockeys say the going is "soft". (Does this still happen?)
I am not interested in the race name, and I suspect most racegoers are not interested either.
I live in Dublin and would like to be able to filter the list to race meetings within a 60 minute drive, a 90 minute drive from my home (a Google maps search).

Other countries give much more information about horses in training.
They have workout times, horses weights.
We expect people to go to the races and bet based on what?

The website should have information about the number of horses in Ireland, where they are.
It should show breeding stock and racing stock separately. They could show where owners live (not in detail).
Of course this should shown as dots on maps, not lists or bar charts.
You could even do this to show where the horses at an upcoming race meeting are based.

This central website should be a portal to the website of each racecourse in Ireland.
Does every racecourse have a website?
Do not allow each racecourse to have a website of its own design.
Have one high quality racecourse website design, free to all racecourses.
Over time racegoers will know where to go for the information they need.

Irish Racing Websites
I decided to look at the my bookmarked websites to see if any Irish sites are there (ordered in frequency of use).

pedigreequery.com
Racing Post
Betfair
France Galop - Genelogie
JBIS - Japan data
Irish Bloodstock Forums (mostly Australian!)
Rating Classifications - The BHA
Video - The Jockey Club
Thoroughbredvillage.com.au forum
The Sport Horse Show and Breed Database
De HorseRracing StartPagina
International Federation of Horseracing Authorities
Liste der Sieger
Equibase (USA site)
The Irish Field (don't use as it needs a login)
Irish Thoroughbred Marketing - stallions in Ireland

Irish horseracing websites are uninteresting.

Lt Dan

diomed wrote: »

Honesty
I think horseracing has a problem here.
My two minor instances of "ownership" taught me a lesson about people in racing - do not give money to people in horseracing.
This lesson was reinforced by the Motivator and Rock Of Gibraltar episodes in the UK.
I intend buying a mare in the November Breeding Stock sales.
As far as I can see there is nothing to protect me from sharp practices.
I've read many books about buying and selling horses at auction, and the stories are scarcely believable.

We also need horseracing to respect the rules.
The government has a rule that officials in government financed bodies serve one term.

Facilities
The old stand at The Curragh was I think built in the 1930s. The toilets were deplorable.
Does each racecourse still do its own thing i.e. are they separate businesses?
We need HRI or some central body to have a plan to rebuild much of what we have.
It would be helpful if they had a design section to give a consistent, high quality image to racecourses.
The last time I was at The Curragh there was a green scum/slime on the underside of the running rails. That gave a poor image.

I'm sure course inspections focus on safety.
Racecourse got rid of concrete posts when jockeys were killed.
Jockey helmets were introduced to lessen injuries.
Horseracing is an entertainment industry.
They need to do more than react too late to events.

There is a liquorice allsorts approach to planting of shrubs, trees, painting, entrances, carparking.
They think that adding a few non-racing related attractions like best dressed lady, childrens amusements, after racing music will fix horseracing.
Those are extras.
They need to fix the main product.

Communication
On my one visit to Doncaster for the 1997 St Leger the thing that impressed me was they had Doncaster racecourse radio.
I knew this in advance and brought a tiny radio and earphones, and listened to interviews, commentary, features on the history of the race. That was 20 years ago.
This is better imo than an occasional loudspeaker announcement that you might miss if not prepared for it.

Education
Is there an Irish website that shows what is on?
We can go to the Racing Post website and look through the cards to find Irish racing.
But I think we need an easy to view website that shows what horseracing is upcoming in Ireland today, tomorrow, next week, next month.
I would like to know the race time, distance, age (2yo, 3yo, 3yo+ ...), type (0-70 Hcap, Group 3 ...), distance, colts, fillies, both.

We need good information on the "going".
Years ago they gave the going as "good" and after the first race there was an announcement that the jockeys say the going is "soft". (Does this still happen?)
I am not interested in the race name, and I suspect most racegoers are not interested either.
I live in Dublin and would like to be able to filter the list to race meetings within a 60 minute drive, a 90 minute drive from my home (a Google maps search).

Other countries give much more information about horses in training.
They have workout times, horses weights.
We expect people to go to the races and bet based on what?

The website should have information about the number of horses in Ireland, where they are.
It should show breeding stock and racing stock separately. They could show where owners live (not in detail).
Of course this should shown as dots on maps, not lists or bar charts.
You could even do this to show where the horses at an upcoming race meeting are based.

This central website should be a portal to the website of each racecourse in Ireland.
Does every racecourse have a website?
Do not allow each racecourse to have a website of its own design.
Have one high quality racecourse website design, free to all racecourses.
Over time racegoers will know where to go for the information they need.

Irish Racing Websites
I decided to look at the my bookmarked websites to see if any Irish sites are there (ordered in frequency of use).

pedigreequery.com
Racing Post
Betfair
France Galop - Genelogie
JBIS - Japan data
Irish Bloodstock Forums (mostly Australian!)
Rating Classifications - The BHA
Video - The Jockey Club
Thoroughbredvillage.com.au forum
The Sport Horse Show and Breed Database
De HorseRracing StartPagina
International Federation of Horseracing Authorities
Liste der Sieger
Equibase (USA site)
The Irish Field (don't use as it needs a login)
Irish Thoroughbred Marketing - stallions in Ireland

Irish horseracing websites are uninteresting.

Irish racing have to websites, go racing (HRI) and irish racing . There is a fair bit on them , the latter canbe difficult to read . With the HRI site, what else could be done about it? It does the job. It has all the contact details of the race tracks and description of the tracks

Now look at a site like racing.com which covers Victoria racing in Australia and you go wow. Oddly, the Hong Kong Website ain't much (well the one I frequent) The Americans with their individual race track sites along with Bloodhound and Equibase are , as expected, top notch

Are websites still relevant with the advent of face book etc? Most of the course at least have a face book page and twitter account


I agree about other countries where you can not just get the track times, but you can even watch the training gallop.Santa Anita to live streams of horses running out. Hong Kong also publishes the weight of the horse...............I wonder how far the lads or even Jim Bolger would go to allow cameras coming onto their private property ?

diomed

I have visited all the Irish racing websites.
They don't keep me coming back to visit.

You mention that you can see the horses in other countries on websites.
In Ireland you might get a glimpse of a horse in a stable visit (Aidan O'Brien).
I don't remember seeing horses from the Dermot Weld, John Oxx, Jim Bolger yards.

One bit of PR I forgot was the confusion in the betting market by the plans for Teofilo and New Approach.
I know the betting public do not pay the bills (they pay some).
Horseracing say they want to attract people to racing but ignore them.

famagusta

diomed wrote: »

Honesty


Education
Is there an Irish website that shows what is on?
We can go to the Racing Post website and look through the cards to find Irish racing.
But I think we need an easy to view website that shows what horseracing is upcoming in Ireland today, tomorrow, next week, next month.
I would like to know the race time, distance, age (2yo, 3yo, 3yo+ ...), type (0-70 Hcap, Group 3 ...), distance, colts, fillies, both.

We need good information on the "going".
Years ago they gave the going as "good" and after the first race there was an announcement that the jockeys say the going is "soft". (Does this still happen?)
I am not interested in the race name, and I suspect most racegoers are not interested either.
I live in Dublin and would like to be able to filter the list to race meetings within a 60 minute drive, a 90 minute drive from my home (a Google maps search).

Other countries give much more information about horses in training.
They have workout times, horses weights.
We expect people to go to the races and bet based on what?



Irish horseracing websites are uninteresting.

http://www.goracing.ie/race-meetings/meeting-updates/

Here, this website has all the going descriptions for you, a lot of other info too. Stats, blogs, glossarys, upcoming fixtures, upcoming race programmes, registrations, the list goes on........
the goracing.ie section has been well advertised in the last couple of years, surprised you do not seem to use it.

Regarding workout times, what are you on about? in the States the training centres are based at the track at it makes sense.

Look at the Fahey brothers training in Ireland, they live on the same road but all use different gallops, what good would workout times be to you?


As a horse owner, i do not want any of that personal info about me published anywhere such as location etc. i wouldn't like any info on my horses regarding times, photos, any other info etc, its my business.

It is obvious you got badly burnt with your couple of forays into horse ownership, but you shouldn't be constantly putting forward your negative agenda regarding buying and owning horses, its getting a bit old at this stage.

diomed

famagusta wrote: »

Here, this website has all the going descriptions for you, a lot of other info too. Stats, blogs, glossarys, upcoming fixtures, upcoming race programmes, registrations, the list goes on........
the goracing.ie section has been well advertised in the last couple of years, surprised you do not seem to use it.

No I don’t use it.
I did contact HRI in the last few weeks, and the package I got was aimed at National Hunt and syndicates.
But my interest is buying a mare to breed a flat horse.

famagusta wrote: »

Regarding workout times, what are you on about? in the States the training centres are based at the track at it makes sense.
Look at the Fahey brothers training in Ireland, they live on the same road but all use different gallops, what good would workout times be to you?

I did not say Ireland should have workout times.
Thanks for trying to educate me about American racing. I have been to meetings there, know they train at the track, and that meetings can/did last for 40 days or more.
I said other countries give more information, and gave a few examples.
I could have mentioned comfortable seating, railway station beside the track (Aqueduct; Flemington; Epsom), Tote board on the infield with constantly changing prices.
Do Irish racing officials put on blinkers when they go abroad?
The attitude in Ireland is “come racing”, but then the industry does little to improve the racing experience.
They have contests, music, amusements that have nothing to do with racing.

famagusta wrote: »

As a horse owner, i do not want any of that personal info about me published anywhere such as location etc. i wouldn't like any info on my horses regarding times, photos, any other info etc, its my business.

Again you are selective with your comments. I said “They could show where owners live (not in detail)".
Weatherbys have a Fact Book (cost €12) that shows the number of breeders, mares, foals by county, Ireland and Great Britain.
If horseracing wants to make the sport attractive they must educate the public.

famagusta wrote: »

It is obvious you got badly burnt with your couple of forays into horse ownership, but you shouldn't be constantly putting forward your negative agenda regarding buying and owning horses, its getting a bit old at this stage.

Getting old or not, the experiences that people have are remembered.
My brother was an owner in two horses. The story was the same. Plenty of expense for not much performance.

The cases of Teofilo, New Approach, Rock Of Gibraltar, Motivator were negative publicity, massive own-goals by racing.
The case where racing ignored government appointment rules another own-goal.
And today there is more negative publicity for horseracing in the Labour court. It was on the lunchtime RTE TV news.

If racing wants to attract customers they need good publicity.

I hope to buy a mare soon and will probably spend €25k in the first year on purchase, keep, stallion fee. I am willing to try again.

Francie Barrett

diomed wrote: »

Honesty
I think horseracing has a problem here.
My two minor instances of "ownership" taught me a lesson about people in racing - do not give money to people in horseracing.
This lesson was reinforced by the Motivator and Rock Of Gibraltar episodes in the UK.
I intend buying a mare in the November Breeding Stock sales.
As far as I can see there is nothing to protect me from sharp practices.
I've read many books about buying and selling horses at auction, and the stories are scarcely believable.

We also need horseracing to respect the rules.
The government has a rule that officials in government financed bodies serve one term.

Facilities
The old stand at The Curragh was I think built in the 1930s. The toilets were deplorable.
Does each racecourse still do its own thing i.e. are they separate businesses?
We need HRI or some central body to have a plan to rebuild much of what we have.
It would be helpful if they had a design section to give a consistent, high quality image to racecourses.
The last time I was at The Curragh there was a green scum/slime on the underside of the running rails. That gave a poor image.

I'm sure course inspections focus on safety.
Racecourse got rid of concrete posts when jockeys were killed.
Jockey helmets were introduced to lessen injuries.
Horseracing is an entertainment industry.
They need to do more than react too late to events.

There is a liquorice allsorts approach to planting of shrubs, trees, painting, entrances, carparking.
They think that adding a few non-racing related attractions like best dressed lady, childrens amusements, after racing music will fix horseracing.
Those are extras.
They need to fix the main product.

Communication
On my one visit to Doncaster for the 1997 St Leger the thing that impressed me was they had Doncaster racecourse radio.
I knew this in advance and brought a tiny radio and earphones, and listened to interviews, commentary, features on the history of the race. That was 20 years ago.
This is better imo than an occasional loudspeaker announcement that you might miss if not prepared for it.

Education
Is there an Irish website that shows what is on?
We can go to the Racing Post website and look through the cards to find Irish racing.
But I think we need an easy to view website that shows what horseracing is upcoming in Ireland today, tomorrow, next week, next month.
I would like to know the race time, distance, age (2yo, 3yo, 3yo+ ...), type (0-70 Hcap, Group 3 ...), distance, colts, fillies, both.

We need good information on the "going".
Years ago they gave the going as "good" and after the first race there was an announcement that the jockeys say the going is "soft". (Does this still happen?)
I am not interested in the race name, and I suspect most racegoers are not interested either.
I live in Dublin and would like to be able to filter the list to race meetings within a 60 minute drive, a 90 minute drive from my home (a Google maps search).

Other countries give much more information about horses in training.
They have workout times, horses weights.
We expect people to go to the races and bet based on what?

The website should have information about the number of horses in Ireland, where they are.
It should show breeding stock and racing stock separately. They could show where owners live (not in detail).
Of course this should shown as dots on maps, not lists or bar charts.
You could even do this to show where the horses at an upcoming race meeting are based.

This central website should be a portal to the website of each racecourse in Ireland.
Does every racecourse have a website?
Do not allow each racecourse to have a website of its own design.
Have one high quality racecourse website design, free to all racecourses.
Over time racegoers will know where to go for the information they need.

Irish Racing Websites
I decided to look at the my bookmarked websites to see if any Irish sites are there (ordered in frequency of use).

pedigreequery.com
Racing Post
Betfair
France Galop - Genelogie
JBIS - Japan data
Irish Bloodstock Forums (mostly Australian!)
Rating Classifications - The BHA
Video - The Jockey Club
Thoroughbredvillage.com.au forum
The Sport Horse Show and Breed Database
De HorseRracing StartPagina
International Federation of Horseracing Authorities
Liste der Sieger
Equibase (USA site)
The Irish Field (don't use as it needs a login)
Irish Thoroughbred Marketing - stallions in Ireland

Irish horseracing websites are uninteresting.

Key items in your post I would like to see.

Weights of horses.
Declaration of whether mare's are in foal.
Workout/schooling times.
Medication disclosure.
Going stick readings like in the UK.

Frankly, punter facilities are of no concern to me.

Peintre Celebre

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Key items in your post I would like to see.

Weights of horses.
Declaration of whether mare's are in foal.
Workout/schooling times.
Medication disclosure.
Going stick readings like in the UK.

Frankly, punter facilities are of no concern to me.

Weights and particularly schooling times are absolutely irrelevant

Lt Dan

I agree with you Diomed , many of us would love to know how a horse weighs between races, and get an idea how how big the horse got since the last race.

We hear now, that Arrogate grew in size when he returned from Dubai. For those who watched on the tv, we would not have known that. We hear Aidan talk about how one of his horse ate the house out of it and put on weight since....and he is delighted. Those little facts are good to know when one wonders if a horse who traveled over the Melbourne for the Cup is okay etc. I knew that Sole Power was a small horse, but it wasn't until I saw him in the flesh that I realised how small he was . We don't really cop that on tv. Hong Kong publish the weights of their horses

Look at this picture from Paddy Power, sure it is tongue in cheek , but to a child or a newbie, they might liked to have known some of the facts



As for times and work outs.............depends on the trainer. Some old skool guys like Henry Cecil claims to have never timed his horses or even weighed them whereas as some one like Guy Harwood was the complete opposite . I know that it is a big part for me to determine who to back in a race in the US (If they went too fast at training, I might dodge) Would times mean much though? A 5 furlong gallop on Aidan's galloping track might be different to a 5 furlong gallop on Bolger's?

I understand that much of the training at Newmarket, ordinary passers by can watch horses galloping , I assume people can do so on the Curragh, do any of ye bother to have a look (people who live around the area) . When I use to commute to Dublin, I would always have the head look out the window as we pass through the Curragh fields (not really sure where most of the training is done, I think on the other side)

The much slagged off Racing post website does offer one good piece of information. They site now allows people to look at the progeny that the dam has produced and their form , for free, all with a few click of the mouse. Previously that information was for subscription holders only

diomed

The thread has moved a bit from the original comments about the facilities (or lack) at The Curragh, and spread out to a discussion of what the punter gets.

I keep a stack of Sporting Life/Racing Post Weekender articles of the most interesting Nick Mordin systems articles.

On 22/08/10 his article "Height and weight can be pointers to ideal trip" gave number of winners at each trip from 1000m to 2400m from nine years of Hong Kong info.
1000m winners averaged 1084 lbs, 2400m runners averaged 1055 lbs, weight falling gradually from short to long distance.
Class 1 runners averaged 1089 lbs down to class 6 runners averaging 1065 lbs.

Weight info can be useful
(1) does the horses fit the race distance
(2) has the horse gained/lost weight.

I recently read of a horse that lost 70 lbs, but the trainer said he put back almost all of the loss in a very short time. We do not have info like this.

A very telling comment in the Nick Mordin article was a photo of St Nicholas Abbey captioned
"St Nicholas Abbey is the sort of light-framed horse who should excel over longer distances".
At the time of the article the horse had run 3 times as a 2yo for 3 wins, and was 6th in the 2000 Guineas (his only run as a 3yo).
Later as a 4yo and older the horse won over 13.5f, 12f, 12f, 12f, 12f, 12f.

Horses heights are on their passports, but we will never know that classified information. I believe the taller a horse the more suited to longer distances.

Nick Mordin ends his article with the comment "experience around the world shows that the more information punters are given the bigger betting turnover tends to be."

They publish horse weights in Hong Kong (and probably loads more). Is betting turnover larger/smaller than in Ireland?

Let's ignore all that and have more bouncy castles and lovely girls competitions.

Harry Angstrom

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Weights and particularly schooling times are absolutely irrelevant

Knowing a horse's weight can be a useful tool, it's done in greyhound racing as a matter of course. Comparing a horse's current weight with its optimum/winning weight is a handy pointer, especially at the beginning of the season.

Lt Dan

diomed wrote: »

The thread has moved a bit from the original comments about the facilities (or lack) at The Curragh, and spread out to a discussion of what the punter gets.

I keep a stack of Sporting Life/Racing Post Weekender articles of the most interesting Nick Mordin systems articles.

On 22/08/10 his article "Height and weight can be pointers to ideal trip" gave number of winners at each trip from 1000m to 2400m from nine years of Hong Kong info.
1000m winners averaged 1084 lbs, 2400m runners averaged 1055 lbs, weight falling gradually from short to long distance.
Class 1 runners averaged 1089 lbs down to class 6 runners averaging 1065 lbs.

Weight info can be useful
(1) does the horses fit the race distance
(2) has the horse gained/lost weight.

I recently read of a horse that lost 70 lbs, but the trainer said he put back almost all of the loss in a very short time. We do not have info like this.

A very telling comment in the Nick Mordin article was a photo of St Nicholas Abbey captioned
"St Nicholas Abbey is the sort of light-framed horse who should excel over longer distances".
At the time of the article the horse had run 3 times as a 2yo for 3 wins, and was 6th in the 2000 Guineas (his only run as a 3yo).
Later as a 4yo and older the horse won over 13.5f, 12f, 12f, 12f, 12f, 12f.

Horses heights are on their passports, but we will never know that classified information. I believe the taller a horse the more suited to longer distances.

Nick Mordin ends his article with the comment "experience around the world shows that the more information punters are given the bigger betting turnover tends to be."

They publish horse weights in Hong Kong (and probably loads more). Is betting turnover larger/smaller than in Ireland?

Let's ignore all that and have more bouncy castles and lovely girls competitions.

Information on weight and if possible, times on the gallops might help the arm chair jockey or those always quick to blame jocks for a ride, as a light to explain why a horse might have lost a race.

In Hong Kong, they are very suspicious about bad rides and they have to answer to the stewards, they want to know everything , the weight of the horse etc. At least there appears to be a lot of integrity and everything seems transparent. Turn Over? Well, I know that there isn't really much distractions in Hong Kong, Sport wise, but , have you seen the crowds they get on a Wednesday night? :eek::D:P

There is a lot to learn from the Hong Kong guys, alas, that won't happen here, if very well known horse people have shares in certain book makers

theaceofspies

As long as HRI serve the eilte through Prizemoney, prizemoney and more prizemoney nothing will change.
Punters are last on the list to be looked after outside of the Festival AKA 'Ladies Day' venues. Horse welfare is treated more seriously than the experiences of racegoers and even then you have trainers scrambling for stables for runnners at places like Tramore and Bellewstown.

One Grace A handicap at Punchestown would build enough permanent brick & mortar stables in every racecourse in Ireland in one year to fix this basic issue.

What I am trying to say is that there are serious issues facing people within the industry right now so what chance does Joe Public have? None.

Proabably the only man who has been most honest in the assesment is Michael Hourigan. Just check his press comments over the last two years. When a man of his experience voices such honest concerns then the powers that be should listen.
People within and outside the industry have been treated with contempt for years and now the signs are showing.
Irish racing has become an embarassment and the greatest hurt has been caused to the people who love it most.

Harry Angstrom

Lt Dan wrote: »

In Hong Kong, they are very suspicious about bad rides and they have to answer to the stewards, they want to know everything , the weight of the horse etc. At least there appears to be a lot of integrity and everything seems transparent. Turn Over? Well, I know that there isn't really much distractions in Hong Kong, Sport wise, but , have you seen the crowds they get on a Wednesday night? :eek::D:P

There is a lot to learn from the Hong Kong guys, alas, that won't happen here, if very well known horse people have shares in certain book makers

In Hong Kong if a horse drifts, the stewards phone down to the start to let the jockey know what's happening. If they introduced the same system to Ireland the phone would never stop ringing.

Francie Barrett

Peintre Celebre wrote: »

Weights and particularly schooling times are absolutely irrelevant

You think a horses weight is irrelevant, really? If a few extra pounds on a horses back can be acknowledged as been a critical factor in a tight race, a horse being overweight by an extra 30-40lbs is not important?

I had a tour of Jim Bolgers yard, it must be about 15 years ago. The lad showing us around said that horses were put on a weighing machine on a regular basis and all horses weights were tracked and logged. He said weight was absolutely critical, and if it wasn't right and a horse had a race entry, it just wouldn't run.

Bolger is one of the more scrupulous operators in racing, so you can imagine the current system of unpublished weights is wide open to abuse. I mean how often do you hear a trainer say "ah he came back after Winter a bit heavy and need a run first time out". Punters have no way of knowing, unless they are in the parade ring and have an amazing eye.

Francie Barrett

famagusta wrote: »

Regarding workout times, what are you on about? in the States the training centres are based at the track at it makes sense.

Look at the Fahey brothers training in Ireland, they live on the same road but all use different gallops, what good would workout times be to you?

When diomed says workout times, he means on-course schooling races. This information can be useful for when horses come back after a break in the season.

diomed

It might make sense to owners and trainers here to keep horse weight and training time information to themselves.
That attitude come from low prizemoney and the need to benefit financially from a bet at high odds.
That is a negative to the people on the receiving end of the subterfuge, the racing public.

Racecourses do not publish sectional times.
Going descriptions must always include the word "good".

In Hong Kong and Singapore owning horses can be profitable.
Almost everything about the horses is known to the public.
Race attendance is large, betting handle is high, prizemoney is good, administration is professional.

The only thing missing out there is a steady supply of good horses.
They get them from Great Britain and Ireland where owners are happy to sell as they can not make money here.
When Johnny's Pride goes missing he might be running out east in a few months renamed Super Golden Dragon.

Markets dictate.
If we do not give the racing public what they want attendances fall.
In countries where they give the racing public what they want attendances rise.
Is it too much to expect we copy the best ideas?

Peintre Celebre

Francie Barrett wrote: »

You think a horses weight is irrelevant, really? If a few extra pounds on a horses back can be acknowledged as been a critical factor in a tight race, a horse being overweight by an extra 30-40lbs is not important?

I had a tour of Jim Bolgers yard, it must be about 15 years ago. The lad showing us around said that horses were put on a weighing machine on a regular basis and all horses weights were tracked and logged. He said weight was absolutely critical, and if it wasn't right and a horse had a race entry, it just wouldn't run.

Bolger is one of the more scrupulous operators in racing, so you can imagine the current system of unpublished weights is wide open to abuse. I mean how often do you hear a trainer say "ah he came back after Winter a bit heavy and need a run first time out". Punters have no way of knowing, unless they are in the parade ring and have an amazing eye.

Punters are clueless. If they were told the weight of a horse would they know if it's under or overweight? Wouldn't make any odds to 99%

diomed

diomed wrote: »

Let's ignore all that and have more bouncy castles and lovely girls competitions.

The intention is to get people to go racing.

Do you really believe that will be achieved with weights and training times rather than bouncy castles and lovely girls competitions? Even among punters it is a miniscule minority who use anything close to the full amount of information already available.

Apart from the obvious, publishing weights and sizes would probably discourage attendance because any edge from sizing up the horses in the parade ring would be largely negated.

It isn't difficult to get people to go racing. Remove the mystique a little, treat people who want to get involved with the sport well (agree with you 100% on that one) and make sure people who come along have a good time. That means decent catering, decent toilets, and a decent day out beyond the horses alone. Most of those things appear to be beyond HRI.

Agree with whoever upthread pointed out that the refusal to move the classics from the Curragh told you everything you need to know about who horse racing in this country is 'for'

Lt Dan

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

In Hong Kong if a horse drifts, the stewards phone down to the start to let the jockey know what's happening. If they introduced the same system to Ireland the phone would never stop ringing.

Richard Hughes wrote a good chapter in his book, about his time in Hong Kong and India (where you would probably be killed)

God help Jaoa Maoira is he ever goes through a month or two with dry spell

As for Ireland, sure Brian Gleeson is giddy telling the viewer how someone had thrown on 10 grand etc (sometimes on odd on horses ) Funny how rarely those stories turn out to be successful punts

NaiveMelodies

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

In Hong Kong if a horse drifts, the stewards phone down to the start to let the jockey know what's happening. If they introduced the same system to Ireland the phone would never stop ringing.

Excuse my ignorance but I don't get this. They let the jockies know their horse is drifting in the betting? Why?

Lt Dan

diomed wrote: »

It might make sense to owners and trainers here to keep horse weight and training time information to themselves.
That attitude come from low prizemoney and the need to benefit financially from a bet at high odds.
That is a negative to the people on the receiving end of the subterfuge, the racing public.

Racecourses do not publish sectional times.
Going descriptions must always include the word "good".

In Hong Kong and Singapore owning horses can be profitable.
Almost everything about the horses is known to the public.
Race attendance is large, betting handle is high, prizemoney is good, administration is professional.

The only thing missing out there is a steady supply of good horses.
They get them from Great Britain and Ireland where owners are happy to sell as they can not make money here.
When Johnny's Pride goes missing he might be running out east in a few months renamed Super Golden Dragon.

Markets dictate.
If we do not give the racing public what they want attendances fall.
In countries where they give the racing public what they want attendances rise.
Is it too much to expect we copy the best ideas?

With the exception of the breeders , the former owners and trainers of these horses must have a wry smile when they watched ATR at 4-8 am every weekend

Dan Excel https://www.racingpost.com/profile/horse/756677/dan-excel

Military Attack (okay, bred in Ireland, but trained in England) https://www.racingpost.com/profile/horse/766759/military-attack


Designs on Rome https://www.racingpost.com/profile/horse/812053/designs-on-rome

Peniaphobia https://www.racingpost.com/profile/horse/831468/peniaphobia

Look how this ex Aga Khan -Oxx horse got close to Winx after a reasonable career in Ireland Dibanyi https://www.racingpost.com/profile/horse/815323/dibayani

While be interesting to see how Sea The Stars' colt Born to Play will do in the Hong Kong 4 year old classic races. He was sold before Royal Ascot for about £400,000. While he didn't win any of his 3 races, he only started at 3 and was thrown into the deep end a bit, ran close 2nd in a Group 3 to Homesman, who was massive in size. Homesman hasn't done much since

Lt Dan

NaiveMelodies wrote: »

Excuse my ignorance but I don't get this. They let the jockies know their horse is drifting in the betting? Why?

To find out what they know about it, did the horse react a certain way, are they fit and able to run, and whether they or the trainers or owners are behind something betting wise. Jockeys , especially the foreign jockeys , and the super star foreign jockeys are under a lot of scrutiny.

In Japan, they make ALL participating jocks for the following days racing stay over night at the race course and they must report in at 10. No mobiles, no computers , nothing .

NaiveMelodies

Lt Dan wrote: »

To find out what they know about it, did the horse react a certain way, are they fit and able to run, and whether they or the trainers or owners are behind something betting wise. Jockeys , especially the foreign jockeys , and the super star foreign jockeys are under a lot of scrutiny.

In Japan, they make ALL participating jocks for the following days racing stay over night at the race course and they must report in at 10. No mobiles, no computers , nothing .

Wow, that is thorough stuff and proper order. Japanese style probably wouldn't be legal here!

marvin80

I bet in Japan thee's no jockeys cosying upto bookies either!!

diomed

I made some comments about lack of information to punters in Great Britain and Ireland. I was too kind. A look at hkjc.com is mindblowing.

While I was browsing I found a page of horses... Former Name/Hong Kong Name ... that shows many IRE breds go to Hong Kong.
http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/horse_former_name.asp?frmSortType=COUNTRY_OF_ORIGIN

tryfix

marvin80 wrote: »

I bet in Japan thee's no jockeys cosying upto bookies either!!

diomed wrote: »

I made some comments about lack of information to punters in Great Britain and Ireland. I was too kind. A look at hkjc.com is mindblowing.

While I was browsing I found a page of horses... Former Name/Hong Kong Name ... that shows many IRE breds go to Hong Kong.
http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/horse_former_name.asp?frmSortType=COUNTRY_OF_ORIGIN

In Hong-Kong and Japan there are no parasitic bookmakers sucking the money out of horseracing, all betting in Japan goes through the JRA which returns 15% of all bets there ( 15% of $22 bn) back into financing racing. Loads of money for racing and doing things properly.

Lt Dan

diomed wrote: »

I made some comments about lack of information to punters in Great Britain and Ireland. I was too kind. A look at hkjc.com is mindblowing.

While I was browsing I found a page of horses... Former Name/Hong Kong Name ... that shows many IRE breds go to Hong Kong.
http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/horse_former_name.asp?frmSortType=COUNTRY_OF_ORIGIN

Only thing missing from that site is a bit of colour and graphics to make it easy on the eye, like Australia's Racing.com. Other than that, it is the go to site when looking at Hong Kong Racing

Keep an eye on Senator (Fahy) and Seven Heavens (Gosden) both Frankel's came from Good track performing mares. And of course, Racing Post Winner , Rivet. Born To Play (as mentioned earlier) Jesus, even Irishcorrespondent has been sold. He was a big hope for Mick Halford this year.(Teofilos do well in HK and Oz )

A stallions, Mastercraftsman got around and does Showcasing

If my memory serves me correct, when you look at the result page, on the same page, will contain a comment from the jocks to the stewards about horses that ran below their best. Normally you have to go to the BHA's own site, which, to be fair is very good (and easy on the eye), to read the stewards reports.

Seriously though, we all have a lot to learn from Hong Kong. They can make what we would consider crappy class 4 handicaps exciting (and very very very very very very profitable ) Imagine them getting them crowds that they get on a Wednesday night. Credit to Dundalk (in the bad weather) they have a good get up, but places like Kempton and Windsor (nice track) should be London's equivalent to HK's Happy Valley