Deposit / Buyer cant close deal?

Agricola

Looking for a bit of advice on how to handle this.

I'm selling a car online for a family member. A man came to see it on Wednesday last with the intention of buying the car for his daughter. He left me a €300 deposit in order to hold it for him until he could return with someone else a couple of days later, to drive it away. I didn't think to give him a receipt, he didnt request one.

Now it turns out he can't buy the car due to insurance problems. Simply can't get a reasonable quote, has exhausted all options. So he has to pull out of the deal. He's expecting the deposit to be returned.

My problem is that in the couple of days between accepting the deposit and hearing back from him to say he's out of the deal, I have lost the sale of the car with another buyer. Another man came to see the car last night, offered me close to the asking price there and then in cash, but I told him I'd taken a deposit and would know in 24 hours what was happening. He told me he was going to look at an another car and he may buy it as he was badly stuck and needed something cheap and cheerful asap. I took that as a bit of aul :rolleyes: story to get me to sell and told him I'd stick to what I agreed and I'd come back to him soon.
As you would expect, I called him back today to be told he bought the other car!

I know its my own fault for not taking the money there and then. If I had, I'd be happy to refund the first man no questions asked. He's a really sound guy and his reasons for pulling out are no fault of his own. My gut instinct is to just refund him but the fact remains, I lost a sure sale holding the car for him......

Any advice appreciated!

lawred2

give him back his money

why is there even a debate in your head?

e: legally you don't have to though

amcalester

Keep the deposit, that's what it's for.

When you sell the car, use the deposit to make up the difference between the price agreed with him and the new price it was sold at.

Give him back the rest.

Brian Scan

lawred2 wrote: »

give him back his money

why is there even a debate in your head?

What's the point of taking a deposit?

ash8390

By keeping it you are in effect stealing. It is not a deposit as you had no contract in place, the only verbal contract was that you would "hold the car" until he came back. You did not agree with him that if he did not return you would be keeping the deposit and so if I were him and you kept my €300 you would be seeing me in small claims court.

js35

Keep the deposit.
He should have done his homework re car insurance before going to look at your car and leaving a €300 deposit

lawred2

js35 wrote: »

Keep the deposit.
He should have done his homework re car insurance before going to look at your car and leaving a €300 deposit

He knows the guy - it's not as easy as referring him to contract law..

is it worth spoilt relations over €300..

up to the OP to decide - I'd be giving it back though.

amcalester

ash8390 wrote: »

By keeping it you are in effect stealing. It is not a deposit as you had no contract in place, the only verbal contract was that you would "hold the car" until he came back. You did not agree with him that if he did not return you would be keeping the deposit and so if I were him and you kept my €300 you would be seeing me in small claims court.

Read up on implied contract terms.

Whole point of taking a deposit is so that both parties follow through.

js35

From citizens advice;

It is always easier to know what your rights and responsibilities are if you have details of the contract in writing, however, a verbal contract is also enforceable. If the supplier does not adhere to the terms of the contract (for example, delivery of a product takes significantly longer than stated) you may have a right to ask for your deposit to be returned. If you pay a deposit to a supplier who, in return, holds an article for you and you change your mind about paying the balance the supplier may not in all these circumstances be obliged to return your deposit.

SCOOP 64

Pointless taking a deposit on private sales, when he comes back with the cash to buy, if the cars still there its his.

js35

lawred2 wrote: »

He knows the guy - it's not as easy as referring him to contract law..

is it worth spoilt relations over €300..

up to the OP to decide - I'd be giving it back though.

OP doesn't know the guy?! It was stated the car was being sold on behalf of a family member to man...not somebody already known

ION08

Out of kidness I would say give him back his deposit.... but think of it this way, next time the situation arises and you take a deposit but then somebody offers to buy the car, you will be inclined to sell there and then on the basis of the previous negative experience ... thus completely undermining the entire concept of a "deposit".

What use is a "deposit" to either a buyer or a seller if it holds absolutely no power? i.e if a buyer can back out and get their deposit refunded, or if a seller receives a deposit but sells the car to another party upfront?

wotswattage

I'd be pretty pissed off if I went to see a car, agreed on a price then found out there was a deposit already on it.

I've taken deposits before but made well sure the buyer knew the ad was coming down on receipt of the deposit - and it was non-refundable on those grounds. It put one guy off paying the deposit as he felt he'd be tied in! What do people expect!?! But to be fair he came with the agreed price a few days later (car remained for sale).

You should give it back if you kept the car for sale after the deposit. That's bad form. I can't comment on what you're entitled to as I don't know anything about the laws myself.

jimmycrackcorm

ash8390 wrote:

By keeping it you are in effect stealing. It is not a deposit as you had no contract in place, the only verbal contract was that you would "hold the car" until he came back. You did not agree with him that if he did not return you would be keeping the deposit and so if I were him and you kept my €300 you would be seeing me in small claims court.

It's not stealing otherwise why the need for a deposit? The only condition is a specific time limit.

If the seller loses money on a sale in the meantime because the buyer didn't come back in time then the seller would be wholly justified in keeping the difference.

Agricola

Thanks for all the replies, bit of a mixed bag!

amcalester wrote: »

Keep the deposit, that's what it's for.

When you sell the car, use the deposit to make up the difference between the price agreed with him and the new price it was sold at.
Give him back the rest.

Not a bad idea.

lawred2 wrote: »

He knows the guy - it's not as easy as referring him to contract law..

is it worth spoilt relations over €300..

up to the OP to decide - I'd be giving it back though.

I don't know either the man with the deposit or the second viewer.....

ION08 wrote: »

Out of kidness I would say give him back his deposit.... but think of it this way, next time the situation arises and you take a deposit but then somebody offers to buy the car, you will be inclined to sell there and then on the basis of the previous negative experience ... thus completely undermining the entire concept of a "deposit".

What use is a "deposit" to either a buyer or a seller if it holds absolutely no power? i.e if a buyer can back out and get their deposit refunded, or if a seller receives a deposit but sells the car to another party upfront?

Good point. I have taken deposits before and issued a printed and signed receipt. That would seem to be something that would stand up as opposed to a verbal agreement. But the whole thing is silly when a buyer expects no penalty for pulling out of a deal or if the seller can just sell to others regardless

wotswattage wrote: »

You should give it back if you kept the car for sale after the deposit. That's bad form. I can't comment on what you're entitled to as I don't know anything about the laws myself.

I think I was right to keep the car for sale online. You never know if it's sold until the money is in your hand, and I have saved myself having to relist it again 2 days after I first entered the ad. Bad form would be selling it over his head without even notifying him.... and really REALLY bad form would be failing to refund him then on the basis that the agreement isn't worth the paper it's not even written on!
I actually lost a sale holding the car for him, based on a non binding agreement that sees me down 2.5k and him not down a cent! (If I fully refund)

Look, I'm not a cúnt and I'm not purely trying to see this from the legal angle ie can i just hold onto the cash and give him the finger. That's not where Im coming from.
As I said, the man was really sound and a better buyer you could not ask for. He simply got screwed by the Irish insurance racket companies. My instinct it just to swallow it and refund him but then I think to myself, why should I (and more to the point, the owner) loose €2.5k while he gets aways completely scot free.

bazz26

ash8390 wrote: »

By keeping it you are in effect stealing. It is not a deposit as you had no contract in place, the only verbal contract was that you would "hold the car" until he came back. You did not agree with him that if he did not return you would be keeping the deposit and so if I were him and you kept my €300 you would be seeing me in small claims court.

Lionel Hutz is that you? Where did you pull that from?

What's the point in taking deposits if it's not enforceable? The buyer should have researched insurance well before looking at the car and putting a deposit on it as it's well known that insurance is difficult in this country. If the seller had not turned away another buyer then I'd have given them back the deposit in an instance as I didn't lose anything but the seller turned away another buyer on the premise that the first buyer was following through on the sale.

OP if you do manage to sell the car and you're not out of pocket then I'd tend to contact the first buyer and then give him back his deposit as a measure of decency.

bmwguy

Yeah just give it back. Even though you don't have to. Pain in the hole having the hassle and arguments. But if you genuinely lost the sale to another and are annoyed and willing to put up with the hassle then keep it.
I had a few guys asking me would I hold the car for them when selling a few months ago I refused.
First person with cash to buy takes it, don't do the deposit thing again.

Agricola

bmwguy wrote: »

Yeah just give it back. Even though you don't have to. Pain in the hole having the hassle and arguments. But if you genuinely lost the sale to another and are annoyed and willing to put up with the hassle then keep it.
I had a few guys asking me would I hold the car for them when selling a few months ago I refused.
First person with cash to buy takes it, don't do the deposit thing again.

Yeah, I don't think I will be doing it again. You could sign a written agreement on the basis that it's non refundable, but even then I think you'd never be out of trouble. It's just better to sell to the first person with the cash. If I had done that, I wouldn't be starting this thread!

Atlantic Dawn

If he got back to me in 24 hours after putting the deposit on I'd give it back to him, otherwise no. He should have called insurers before handing over money or else just after putting the deposit down and then informed you that they couldn't insure it so you were not turning away perspective purchasers.

MarkN

Same thing happened to me in April. I texted the other guy I'd cancelled on due to it being sold and he bought the car within 3 hours. So I gave the first guy his deposit back. It was a 3.0L car so I arguably would have an even harder time shifting it after being messed around than you hopefully will but I would've still felt wrong keeping the deposit. Legally, it's all yours though.

bmwguy

Agricola wrote: »

Yeah, I don't think I will be doing it again. You could sign a written agreement on the basis that it's non refundable, but even then I think you'd never be out of trouble. It's just better to sell to the first person with the cash. If I had done that, I wouldn't be starting this thread!

It's easy to trust someone though. When they hand over cash you presume they are serious.

grogi

ash8390 wrote: »

By keeping it you are in effect stealing. It is not a deposit as you had no contract in place, the only verbal contract was that you would "hold the car" until he came back. You did not agree with him that if he did not return you would be keeping the deposit and so if I were him and you kept my €300 you would be seeing me in small claims court.

Verbal contract is equally binding...

The whole purpose of the deposit is to secure the interests of the seller should the buyer backs from the deal.

lawred2

js35 wrote: »

lawred2 wrote: »

He knows the guy - it's not as easy as referring him to contract law..

is it worth spoilt relations over €300..

up to the OP to decide - I'd be giving it back though.

OP doesn't know the guy?! It was stated the car was being sold on behalf of a family member to man...not somebody already known

What? He said he's sound. I don't know many people who say that about strangers.

amcalester

lawred2 wrote: »

What? He said he's sound. I don't know many people who say that about strangers.

He also said he doesn't know him.

lawred2

amcalester wrote: »

lawred2 wrote: »

What? He said he's sound. I don't know many people who say that about strangers.

He also said he doesn't know him.

Did he?

Oh well. Keep it then.

His insurance costs are not your concern so don't let his problem become yours.

You have €300 deposit against the agreed price. He can pay the balance and take the car (keep it parked up, pay through the nose for insurance, sell it for a profit/loss/break even. Who cares?) or he can lose his deposit. Black and white stuff.

He pays up and buys the car or he pays the price for a lesson in how deposits work. If he forfeits the deposit you can reduce your asking price by the same amount and get the car sold elsewhere without losing out financially for his messing about. 'Sound' doesn't put food on the table.

Agricola

JayZeus wrote: »

His insurance costs are not your concern so don't let his problem become yours.

You have €300 deposit against the agreed price. He can pay the balance and take the car (keep it parked up, pay through the nose for insurance, sell it for a profit/loss/break even. Who cares?) or he can lose his deposit. Black and white stuff.

He pays up and buys the car or he pays the price for a lesson in how deposits work. If he forfeits the deposit you can reduce your asking price by the same amount and get the car sold elsewhere without losing out financially for his messing about. 'Sound' doesn't put food on the table.

A blunt but fair assessment to be honest!

It goes against my grain to be as ruthless as that, but as I said, I'm down 2.5k tonight, while he's expecting to not even loose a couple of hundred quid. I think it is indeed that black and white.

lawred2

Agricola wrote: »

JayZeus wrote: »

His insurance costs are not your concern so don't let his problem become yours.

You have €300 deposit against the agreed price. He can pay the balance and take the car (keep it parked up, pay through the nose for insurance, sell it for a profit/loss/break even. Who cares?) or he can lose his deposit. Black and white stuff.

He pays up and buys the car or he pays the price for a lesson in how deposits work. If he forfeits the deposit you can reduce your asking price by the same amount and get the car sold elsewhere without losing out financially for his messing about. 'Sound' doesn't put food on the table.

A blunt but fair assessment to be honest!

It goes against my grain to be as ruthless as that, but as I said, I'm down 2.5k tonight, while he's expecting to not even loose a couple of hundred quid. I think it is indeed that black and white.

How are you down 2.5k

Del2005

lawred2 wrote: »

How are you down 2.5k

He turned away someone willing to buy.


It a tough one OP. But a deposit is a deposit and unless specified otherwise they aren't refundable. I

Agricola

Agricola wrote: »

A blunt but fair assessment to be honest!

It goes against my grain to be as ruthless as that, but as I said, I'm down 2.5k tonight, while he's expecting to not even loose a couple of hundred quid. I think it is indeed that black and white.

You'd give him a jumpstart, a lend of an umbrella and busfare home if he was stuck for example. Fair dues. Most would and why not. This is pure pisstaking on his part and it isn't ruthless at all to put a stop to it. You can bet your life he knows exactly what he's at.

Agricola

JayZeus wrote: »

You'd give him a jumpstart, a lend of an umbrella and busfare home if he was stuck for example. Fair dues. Most would and why not. This is pure pisstaking on his part and it isn't ruthless at all to put a stop to it. You can bet your life he knows exactly what he's at.

To be honest, I don't think it's like that at all. He's a very genuine fella, whos just out of touch with the insurance situation in Ireland and was expecting no hassle getting his kid a policy on this car. He's also green when it comes to buying cars privately, it was one of the easiest sales I ever had.

That's what makes it hard for me because if he was just some chancer (and I have dealt with plenty of those) I wouldn't bat an eyelid. But this man made a genuine mistake not doing his homework first. If I was in his shoes, I'd be hoping the seller would show me some leniency to me. And if I hadn't had a buyer with cash in hand the day after, I would think nothing of handing the cash back to him.

grogi

Agricola wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think it's like that at all. He's a very genuine fella, whos just out of touch with the insurance situation in Ireland and was expecting no hassle getting his kid a policy on this car. He's also green when it comes to buying cars privately, it was one of the easiest sales I ever had.

That's what makes it hard for me because if he was just some chancer (and I have dealt with plenty of those) I wouldn't bat an eyelid. But this man made a genuine mistake not doing his homework first. If I was in his shoes, I'd be hoping the seller would show me some leniency to me. And if I hadn't had a buyer with cash in hand the day after, I would think nothing of handing the cash back to him.

Is €300 worth the regrets that you clearly have?

James Bond Junior

Give the man back his money. If the man was buying it for his daughter it's clearly a small car such as a yaris or clio or something. You're not going to find it hard to sell if you had someone else coming to buy it. Karma and all that.

JohnBoy26

Agricola wrote: »

Looking for a bit of advice on how to handle this.

I'm selling a car online for a family member. A man came to see it on Wednesday last with the intention of buying the car for his daughter. He left me a €300 deposit in order to hold it for him until he could return with someone else a couple of days later, to drive it away. I didn't think to give him a receipt, he didnt request one.

Now it turns out he can't buy the car due to insurance problems. Simply can't get a reasonable quote, has exhausted all options. So he has to pull out of the deal. He's expecting the deposit to be returned.

My problem is that in the couple of days between accepting the deposit and hearing back from him to say he's out of the deal, I have lost the sale of the car with another buyer. Another man came to see the car last night, offered me close to the asking price there and then in cash, but I told him I'd taken a deposit and would know in 24 hours what was happening. He told me he was going to look at an another car and he may buy it as he was badly stuck and needed something cheap and cheerful asap. I took that as a bit of aul :rolleyes: story to get me to sell and told him I'd stick to what I agreed and I'd come back to him soon.
As you would expect, I called him back today to be told he bought the other car!

I know its my own fault for not taking the money there and then. If I had, I'd be happy to refund the first man no questions asked. He's a really sound guy and his reasons for pulling out are no fault of his own. My gut instinct is to just refund him but the fact remains, I lost a sure sale holding the car for him......

Any advice appreciated!

Why did you waste that persons time by letting them view a car you had already sold or taken a deposit on? Id be really annoyed if someone done that to me, fair enough if I knew it before going to view it but if someone led me believe the car was for sale until the time it came to talk money I don't think id be too happy.

Agricola

JohnBoy26 wrote: »

Why did you waste that persons time by letting them view a car you had already sold or taken a deposit on? Id be really annoyed if someone done that to me, fair enough if I knew it before going to view it but if someone led me believe the car was for sale until the time it came to talk money I don't think id be too happy.

I told him on the phone cash had been put down on it, he came anyway. He thought he'd wave some cash in the air and I'd let it off.

More fool me!

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Give the man back his money. If the man was buying it for his daughter it's clearly a small car such as a yaris or clio or something. You're not going to find it hard to sell if you had someone else coming to buy it. Karma and all that.

Karma? That's an even sillier idea than turning away a buyer with a fistful of cash!

Harry Palmr

Not sure why the OP needs guidance on this matter - it's essentially a matter of conscience. If it goes against the grain to keep it then hand it back, I'm sure the other fella is feeling a bit sheepish. He may even split the difference with a strong hint.

James Bond Junior

Agricola wrote: »

I told him on the phone cash had been put down on it, he came anyway. He thought he'd wave some cash in the air and I'd let it off.

More fool me!



Karma? That's an even sillier idea than turning away a buyer with a fistful of cash!

Well if that's your attitude I hope I never sell you a car. I've sold more cars than I've had hot dinners and I always returned people's deposits if they genuinely couldn't buy the car due to unforseen circumstances. What goes around comes around, call me silly if you want but I'd rather be a honest and decent person than a person who takes another person's hard earned money needlessly.

lawred2

Del2005 wrote: »

He turned away someone willing to buy.

Fine. How does that mean he's down 2.5k?

GustavoFring

If it's something that there's interest in and will be an easy sell give him half back if its bothering you.

If it's a hard sell don't.

And telling the second buyer there was a deposit on it before viewing is ok. It's their problem if you say no.

Del2005

lawred2 wrote: »

Fine. How does that mean he's down 2.5k?

Because he doesn't have the money in his pocket, is it that hard to understand?

An asset is worth as much as someone is willing to spend. If you refuse an offer of 2.5k for a person who pulls out then you don't have 2.5k Sorry you are correct the OP is down 2.2k because they have the deposit from the person who pulled out.

I can't understand people. They expect a business/person to honour any verbal/written contract or order, with deposit or not, yet expect to get the deposit returned if they change their mind/find out they can't afford it.

What would the same people say if the OP had sold the car and we had the "buyer" posting saying that they had put a €300 deposit on a car and the seller sold it to someone else? They would be saying that the seller owes them the car!

Pkiernan

Why not just tell the guy you'll return his deposit when the car sells?

bazz26

That's not how a deposit works.

Agricola

James Bond Junior wrote: »

Well if that's your attitude I hope I never sell you a car. I've sold more cars than I've had hot dinners and I always returned people's deposits if they genuinely couldn't buy the car due to unforseen circumstances. What goes around comes around, call me silly if you want but I'd rather be a honest and decent person than a person who takes another person's hard earned money needlessly.

No need to get your knickers in a twist. I wasn't calling you silly, I was calling the idea of karma silly. Believe me I've sold plenty of cars myself and If I was operating a free for all in the hope that karma would see me right on the next sale, then I'd quickly have to stop buying and selling I reckon.
You're looking at this from just one angle, that of the buyer.
I have no interest in taking people's money needlessly, but the fact is he gave me a deposit, a contract was entered into. In exchange for the cash, I agreed to hold the car for him until a certain point in time. I upheld my end of the bargain, and lost a definite sale as a result, he has not upheld his end of the bargain and he expects/hopes to loose not one cent. I understand it's not his fault, but as another poster said, that's tough but why should he be fully compensated while I have lost far far more cash because of it.



-- Anyway lads, I've got it sorted in the end. I called the man up to tell him the whole story. He was very understanding and agreed completely that we've both lost out here and it's fair and reasonable that he should take some kind of hit on the deposit. So we agreed I'd refund him 50% - To be honest he sounded happy enough and was probably expecting me to say he'd lost the whole lot. That will cover my relisting fees and allow me some headroom to drop the asking price a bit now to try to get more eyes on it. It will also allow let me sleep a bit better at night

Thanks for all the input, it was a big help.

James Bond Junior

Agricola wrote: »

No need to get your knickers in a twist. I wasn't calling you silly, I was calling the idea of karma silly. Believe me I've sold plenty of cars myself and If I was operating a free for all in the hope that karma would see me right on the next sale, then I'd quickly have to stop buying and selling I reckon.
You're looking at this from just one angle, that of the buyer.
I have no interest in taking people's money needlessly, but the fact is he gave me a deposit, a contract was entered into. In exchange for the cash, I agreed to hold the car for him until a certain point in time. I upheld my end of the bargain, and lost a definite sale as a result, he has not upheld his end of the bargain and he expects/hopes to loose not one cent. I understand it's not his fault, but as another poster said, that's tough but why should he be fully compensated while I have lost far far more cash because of it.



-- Anyway lads, I've got it sorted in the end. I called the man up to tell him the whole story. He was very understanding and agreed completely that we've both lost out here and it's fair and reasonable that he should take some kind of hit on the deposit. So we agreed I'd refund him 50% - To be honest he sounded happy enough and was probably expecting me to say he'd lost the whole lot. That will cover my relisting fees and allow me some headroom to drop the asking price a bit now to try to get more eyes on it. It will allow let me sleep a bit better at night

Thanks for all the input, it was a big help.

Fair enough. I was in the pub posting last night so may have been a bit more argumentive than needed. Best of luck in the sale.

893bet

Edit.

TheShow

Unless you stipulated that it was a non refundable deposit, then I don't see why you would not return it to him.

grogi

TheShow wrote: »

Unless you stipulated that it was a non refundable deposit, then I don't see why you would not return it to him.

What is a refundable deposit? A loan of some sort?

Deposit is non-refundable, unless specified and agreed circumstances prevent the deal to go through. If nothing was discussed, it does not need to go back.

Lantus

Give the guy his money back. He obviously has insurance difficulties which were unforeseen. He gave the deposit I in good faith. How are you helping him by stealing from him?

As you said yourself you should of taken the other guys money when offered. You will sell your car though so don't worry.

road_high

You're entitled to keep the deposit but that's not neccessarily the right thing to do in this instance. He sounds genuine and if it were I'd just give the deposit back and chalk it down...

ash8390

amcalester wrote: »

Read up on implied contract terms.

Whole point of taking a deposit is so that both parties follow through.

The verbal contract that they had was not that a deposit would be taken so both parties would follow through it was that the car would be held until the man reverted. Big difference. He would win in court and rightly so because verbal contracts dont work with "implied" terms they are only enforceable so far as what was actually agreed