How do you decide on a person's nationality?

XxMCRxBabyxX

So this has the potential to become a sh*tstorm but I'm curious to see how people think!

Yet again I've seen another Facebook comment claiming that a person can't be Irish because (in a nutshell) they don't look like they should be. The usual claims are their parents aren't Irish, they weren't born here, they don't live here (normally in relation to the children of Irish parents), etc. These always leave me confused as to what I count as though. I'm an Irish citizen born to Irish parents, however, I was born in Africa and lived there until I was 10. To some people being born in a different country is enough to take away my rights to be Irish, but the country I was born in won't even allow me to take their nationality as neither of my parents are citizens.

So am I Irish or not? What about others who claim to be - those who have been born and/or raised here to foreign parents? Those who are born abroad to Irish parents? What are the rules?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

The definition of Nationality is quite straightforward. Nationality is a legal relationship between an individual person and a state. If the state, by way of citizenship, recognises your nationality as Irish then you may claim Irish nationality no matter what ignorant , biased, buffoons may try to maintain.

riffmongous

Depends what you refer to by nationality, citizenship, ethnicity or a mixture of both? These debates are always trouble because the definition is not clear

riffmongous

Faye Damaged Smart-ass wrote: »

The definition of Nationality is quite straightforward. Nationality is a legal relationship between an individual person and a state. If the state, by way of citizenship, recognises your nationality as Irish then you may claim Irish nationality no matter what ignorant , biased, buffoons may try to maintain.

It's not straightforward af all

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

riffmongous wrote: »

Depends what you refer to by nationality, citizenship, ethnicity or a mixture of both? These debates are always trouble because the definition is not clear

The definitions are clear. It's people who get it wrong. Ethnicity has absolutely nothing to do with nationality. Citizenship and Nationality are often interchangeable and yet can be different - if the individual wishes to distinguish between county of birth and bestowed citizen. But quite equally they have a right to claim nationality by virtue of the rights citizenship confers. It's all semantics really.

Gatling

To some apparently it's a felling they are a different nationality to their own.

ie I feel american , Irish, or anything in between

By their names.

Bruce and Sheila are Australian.

Yvonne and Natalie French.

Adolf is Austrian.

etc.

riffmongous

Faye Damaged Smart-ass wrote: »

The definitions are clear. It's people who get it wrong. Ethnicity has absolutely nothing to do with nationality. Citizenship and Nationality are often interchangeable and yet can be different - if the individual wishes to distinguish between county of birth and bestowed citizen. But quite equally they have a right to claim nationality by virtue of the rights citizenship confers. It's all semantics really.

No its not, dictionary definition of MW lists both legal and ethnic meanings

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationality

pickarooney

I've never once come across an Yvonne in all my time living in France. I knew three in Ireland.

_Brian

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

So this has the potential to become a sh*tstorm but I'm curious to see how people think!

Yet again I've seen another Facebook comment claiming that a person can't be Irish because (in a nutshell) they don't look like they should be. The usual claims are their parents aren't Irish, they weren't born here, they don't live here (normally in relation to the children of Irish parents), etc. These always leave me confused as to what I count as though. I'm an Irish citizen born to Irish parents, however, I was born in Africa and lived there until I was 10. To some people being born in a different country is enough to take away my rights to be Irish, but the country I was born in won't even allow me to take their nationality as neither of my parents are citizens.

So am I Irish or not? What about others who claim to be - those who have been born and/or raised here to foreign parents? Those who are born abroad to Irish parents? What are the rules?

This is very simple..

YOU don't ever get to decide on a person's nationality.. There are many legal papers that prove a person's nationality.. Yes there are many knuckle dragging standards that backward people will apply.. but that's all pub talk.

Biggest lickspittle on boardz

I go by passport.

osarusan

XxMCRxBabyxX wrote: »

I'm an Irish citizen born to Irish parents, however, I was born in Africa and lived there until I was 10. To some people being born in a different country is enough to take away my rights to be Irish

Ignore those morons and get on with life. Their opinion means f**k all.

Tom Mann Centuria

In my opinion op, your parents are Irish, so you're Irish, also if you had been born here regardless of your parents nationality you'd also be Irish.

I'm English, my kids were born here in Ireland, so they're Irish, if for whatever reason they want to apply for UK citizenship later then they should be able to.

In summary, the Tom Mann Centuria criteria is either, country you're born in, or nationality of your parents, entitles you to claim appropriate nationality.

Mrs OBumble

riffmongous wrote: »

It's not straightforward af all

Indeed.

Irish people have a very poor idea of the concept of ethnicity, which doesn't help either.

Ethnicity is about the group of people which you feel yourself to be part of. So a child born in Ireland before 2004 to parents of African descent may well have Irish citizenship, but ethnically be African. Similarly the OP may well be ethincally Irish - or may not if s/he doesn't identify with Irish people.

Nationality and citizenship are a good deal more complex. A casual glance might make you think that nationality is some people's attempt to bridge between citizenship and ethnicity. But as explained in an interesting article about it in The Economist this month (ref) there are some cases of people being nationals but not citizens (eg children in Mexico) - and some people who hold passports from countries who who are not even allowed to live in!

RFOLEY1990

The Granny Rule.

donegaLroad

I was in college in Derry in the early 90's and at the end of the year, students were applying for colleges in the UK and Ireland. I was the only one in the class from the South so I knew what to write in the 'Nationality' section of the form.... the rest of the class weren't sure what to put in, so the head of the department told them to write in what ever their passport stated, or to just put down Northern Irish, British or Irish.

riffmongous

pickarooney wrote: »

I've never once come across an Yvonne in all my time living in France. I knew three in Ireland.

I'd always assumed it was an Irish name until last year

indioblack

RFOLEY1990 wrote: »

The Granny Rule.

That'll do for me - my gran was Irish, [well, one of them was].

mikemac2

De Valera was a yank from New York, James Connolly was a Scot and like your situation OP David Norris was born in the Congo. I haven't mentioned our international soccer team yet

It's all good OP

triple nipple

indioblack wrote:

That'll do for me - my gran was Irish, [well, one of them was].

But was her gran Irish?

indioblack

triple nipple wrote: »

But was her gran Irish?

Ahh. Tricky.
I'd be delving back into the early 19th century to answer that one.
Lets take a chance and say she was!

donegaLroad

mikemac2 wrote: »

De Valera was a yank from New York, James Connolly was a Scot and like your situation OP David Norris was born in the Congo. I haven't mentioned our international soccer team yet

It's all good OP

Che Guevara, Robert De Niro and Jimi Hendrix could have played for the ROI soccer team

SpannerMonkey

for me its simple if you were born here you are irish . dont care what colour or creed you are . born here = irish

having an irish accent = bonus points

a friend of mine in secondary was born in dublin to iranian parents he was dark skinned and of the Bah faith but i never considered him anything but irish . he had the same sense of humour and irish mentality as anyone else i knew so i never considered him anything but irish

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Tom Mann Centuria

donegaLroad wrote: »

Che Guevara, Robert De Niro and Jimi Hendrix could have played for the ROI soccer team

Che was a Left winger I believe.

Autochange

Its a bit of a grey area to me. For example on your birthcert it may say female or male but nowadays people can decide they are something else so if you want to claim you are a different nationality then go for it.

Ulysses Gaze

donegaLroad wrote: »

Che Guevara, Robert De Niro and Jimi Hendrix could have played for the ROI soccer team

Whereas Tony Cascarino should not have.

FutureGuy

Here's one.

Went to supermacs in Limerick City today and ordered a takeaway for my wife. Nice guy took my order, central Asian, great English, might have been here for many years.

He started talking about the match on the the Gaelic Grounds. Excited for the under 21 final on there and loves the buzz around the city. Clearly knew his GAA.

I haven't a clue about GAA. Didn't care about the game and didn't know it was on. I couldn't even tell you now if it was hurling or Gaelic football.

I couldn't care less about Irish music or drinking. Few Polish lads I know can sing rebel songs.

I honestly never had much of a care for Irish history, instead I loved European history and stories of other civilisations. Found stories boring. Never had any haters of the English and never will. I think the Queen is a nice person.

I couldn't care less about Celtic, Rangers or Scottish football in general.

Am I "Irish"? Well I was born here but I am incredibly atypical. I guarantee there are non-nationals that are more Irish than me.

Mint Sauce

If I grow my beard long enough, a little bit of ginge appears. Make of that what you will,

Are Am Eye

I hope you had words with him for putting lotion in your order.

Paddy Cow

_Brian wrote: »

This is very simple..

YOU don't ever get to decide on a person's nationality.. There are many legal papers that prove a person's nationality.. Yes there are many knuckle dragging standards that backward people will apply.. but that's all pub talk.

I beg to differ. When Americans start claiming they're Irish going back 5 or 6 generations then they are NOT Irish. They are American.

Paddy Cow

I generally go by accent. There's a guy in my local deli who looks asian but speaks with a thick Dublin accent so I'd class him as Irish as he's obviously spent his formative years in Ireland.

_Brian

Paddy Cow wrote: »

I beg to differ. When Americans start claiming they're Irish going back 5 or 6 generations then they are NOT Irish. They are American.

Beg what you want Paddy but it's not your decision.
Nationality is a legal not cultural issue, if the paperwork supports a persons claim, then they are an Irish national - simples !

feargale

donegaLroad wrote: »

Che Guevara, Robert De Niro and Jimi Hendrix could have played for the ROI soccer team

Not to mention David Cameron who could have been hurling for Waterford last Sunday.
Elizabeth Hay, Lady Erroll, was conceived in straw by King William IV and Waterford-born Dorothea Jordan.
British Prime Minister David Cameron is a fourth great-grandson of Lady Erroll, thus making him the fifth cousin twice removed to Queen Elizabeth II according to Debrett's.
Waterford could probably do with David the next day against Cork.

dd972

There's a odd dynamic in relation to England with this stuff, someone like Dermot O'Leary for example, an Irish national born to two Irish parents is course Irish, whether he holds a UK passport or not I don't know, but when the accent of the person is English, especially a London one, it's assumed all Irishness or claims to it are nulled and voided and they've been wrapped up in a St George's flag the moment they're born.

People an hour away, many of whom have been here countless times, are familiar with the geography, history, politics and culture, many of whom make their homes and lives here are much more Irish to me than a third or fourth generation Irish American, yet they're held in much more affection.

Again, be born and raised in France or Spain and you're an Irish national born overseas, the U.K and you're a 'Brit', not 'one of us'.

donegaLroad

I remember posting this before a couple of years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZNEloGC1oI

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

greenflash

I always use the Phil Lynott test.

He was half black/Brazillian, born in Birmingham and supported Manchester United - therefore clearly Irish.

Why would I be in a position to decide on someone's nationality. I'm not a judge or a Garda, and neither are most people here.

Imagine being the kind of person who approaches someone in a bar and insists that they have no right to claim a nationality. You would need to be a special grade of douchebag to engage in that kind of nonsense.

As Permabear also mentioned above, many people don't always refer to nationality in the narrow, legal sense. My relatives in England habitually refer to themselves as Irish when joking about their personalities, but none of them AFAIK have Irish passports (at least, not yet)

wotzgoingon

Well I don't know about you OP but I am 100% Irish beef. Born and bred here all my life. Left the shores a few times to go on short holidays.

wotzgoingon

donegaLroad wrote: »

I remember posting this before a couple of years ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZNEloGC1oI

I see that is quite a old documentary. But I wonder if they still keep to being Irish this day in age or do they now try to stick to that African roots?

greenflash

wotzgoingon wrote: »

I see that is quite a old documentary. But I wonder if they still keep to being Irish this day in age or do they now try to stick to that African roots?

Don't know if there's anyone left on Montserrat these days. The place was evacuated after volcanic eruptions in the mid 90s.