Follow up to previous intervention request

gizmo81

Hi again.

I started a thread previously about After Hours problem with homophobia and transphobia.

Just wondering have the mods come together and decided whether or not to grant us LGBTQ+ Boardsies a bit of respite from the abuse?

It's very distressing to see these comments lead the home page of boards.

Much thanks

Gizmo

LoLth

respond by PM.

LoLth

at Gizmo's request here is the content of my PM response:

hi Gizmo81 your latest feedback thread is not actually feedback. its a complaint about content in AH disguised as an innocent enquiry.

From a personal point of view (not that of the admins as a whole or boards.ie) I hate that type of sideways slithering and my reaction is generally negative.

From a boards.ie point of view: the mods moderated the transgender in the military threads correctly and removed the trolling. While you may not agree with all opinions expressed by users, they still have a right to hold and post them as long as they are not illegal, direct attacks or trolling-dressed-up-as-opinion. it is unfortunate but there are ignorant pricks in society that have just as much right to be who they are as anyone else.

I am sure the mods appreciate you reporting posts that you feel are against the charter, not just posts that you don't like or don't agree with but there is no need to raise a helpdesk or feedback thread for every issue you observe. Also, I dont think mods like being lectured. If you want to "mobilise" and "galvanise" might I suggest you do it somewhere else. If you want to discuss and help make boards a more open place where it is good to have differences of opinion then please continue to post.

However ,less of the digs at the mods and less of the accusatory and combative stance. We're not your enemy and the mods do not deserve this judgemental attitude from you.

In the good old days I would just have told you to stop acting like a spoilt child trying to get attention by being a dick but I'm not allowed do that anymore because we've been asked to consider people's feelings so instead I would ask that you do the same and stop showboating for attention and trying to stir up some sort of movement where a simple report and/or discussion would be enough.

You have some decent points but you make it too much work to see them past the stench of your attitude

LoLth

This still isnt actually feedback though. Its an end run around the mods of a forum where users have posted content you dont like.

gizmo81

Thank you.

So I am not clear as to how my request to include homophobia and transphobia on the charters turned into calling me a slithering snake, a spoilt child trying to get attention by being a dick with a stench of attitude.

I've reported the PM as I cannot fathom how such a response stems from mine, other posters and moderators response to the problem on AH.

Criticism of moderators or admins shouldn't result in people being called snakes, dicks, spoilt etc etc.

This debate should be in public.

At the end of the day LGBTQ+ people should not have to defend having children, being in employment, ordering cakes or anything else a heterosexual person takes for granted.

LoLth

let me perfectly clear about this:

my response is absolutely nothing to do with the LGBTQ+ community it is to do with YOU, your militant attitude and argumentative and combative style.

To me, you are not any sexuality, you are an account of a user on boards.ie. thats it. You have a right to an opinion and you have a right to express that opinion withing the restrictions of acceptability on a website that you do not own. Report a post if you have an issue with it and, if it is against the charter or if the mods deem it actionable they will deal with it but dont raise helpdesk and feedback threads every time a flurry of reported posts is not actioned the exact way you want it to be. - and that applies to ANY user, regardless of the topic under discussion.

I have no objection to criticism of moderators or admins. I have no objection to disagreement with rules or decisions. as long as it is expressed in a constructive manner.

gizmo81

LoLth wrote: »

let me perfectly clear about this:


To me, you are not any sexuality,.

Please please don't take offence but this is problematic.

It's as problematic as saying I don't see skin colour. Stripping a person of their identity, sexuality or race is never the answer.

I kindly suggest you see the concerns of the LGBTQ+ Community, which are unique to their sexuality/identity, who are members of boards.ie.

For me and what I understand from other lGBTQ+ people on boards.ie we just want to free from having to defend ourselves from comments that a heterosexual person would never face because they are heterosexual.

The anger comes from the dismissiveness of mods and admins here of what it's like to see these comments regularly.

We are not asking for much but you have to understand that saying including homophobia/transphobia on the charter takes discussion, needs simplifying is really distressing.

It says that we should be open to some abuse, to be interrogated, less protected than other minorities.

We just want a symbolic commitment from you, of course it won't stop re-reg trolls but at the moment I don't feel supported by the admins or mods of boards in putting an end to homophobic/transphobic comments.

I say this in good faith. I don't want to argue.

LoLth

how is it problematic? you say you are a gender or an orientation or a colour or creed but... how does anyone really know. I don't. so i wont make any judgement on any user account based on anything other than what I have personally witnessed or have pointed out to me (after I have reviewed the evidence for myself). or would you prefer me to start making judgements based on what I think the user is based on their username / location / profile ?

its an anonymous medium. therefore the accounts should be treated as anonymous and amorphic until they prove themselves to be otherwise.


to address the rest of your post:

you are distressed at the comments. fair enough, report them. The mods will deal with them if they deem them actionable and they have been doing so. A post posted at 21:28 was reported at 21:33 and the poster banned at 21:43. That's some impressive response times from the AH mod team. so its not as if they are ignoring reported posts or not bothering.

The poster was banned. not because the post was an opinion that anyone of any gender would be offended at but because the post was not treating another poster in an acceptable manner. And thats the way it *should* be. For any topic or subject that can be legally discussed. the AH mods are supporting the AH community and by proxy the boards.ie user community. not any particular subset of it.

I wont give a symbolic commitment of support. I'll give the same commitment I give equally to any community on boards. Discuss issues in a civilised manner, even if heated, and I'm happy to support and help provide a place to hold that discussion and help protect it from internet users that would prefer you did not have that platform even if I don't personally agree with the opinion being expressed. And I'm pretty sure I speak for the Admins as a whole when I say this. Pretty sure Cmods and mods would express the same sentiment.

gizmo81

LoLth wrote: »

how is it problematic? you say you are a gender or an orientation or a colour or creed but... how does anyone really know. I don't. so i wont make any judgement on any user account based on anything other than what I have personally witnessed or have pointed out to me (after I have reviewed the evidence for myself). or would you prefer me to start making judgements based on what I think the user is based on their username / location / profile ?

its an anonymous medium. therefore the accounts should be treated as anonymous and amorphic until they prove themselves to be otherwise.


to address the rest of your post:

you are distressed at the comments. fair enough, report them. The mods will deal with them if they deem them actionable and they have been doing so. A post posted at 21:28 was reported at 21:33 and the poster banned at 21:43. That's some impressive response times from the AH mod team. so its not as if they are ignoring reported posts or not bothering.

The poster was banned. not because the post was an opinion that anyone of any gender would be offended at but because the post was not treating another poster in an acceptable manner. And thats the way it *should* be. For any topic or subject that can be legally discussed. the AH mods are supporting the AH community and by proxy the boards.ie user community. not any particular subset of it.

I wont give a symbolic commitment of support. I'll give the same commitment I give equally to any community on boards. Discuss issues in a civilised manner, even if heated, and I'm happy to support and help provide a place to hold that discussion and help protect it from internet users that would prefer you did not have that platform even if I don't personally agree with the opinion being expressed. And I'm pretty sure I speak for the Admins as a whole when I say this. Pretty sure Cmods and mods would express the same sentiment.

I'm not going to go through your post but it is clear that there is a huge misunderstanding.

I will point out though, why are people of colour protected under the charter and LGBTQ+ people are not?

Why is sexism on the charter?

This is not treating minority communities equally as you suggest.

LoLth

Boards terms of use starts with:

We expect you to act responsibly in posting Material on Boards.ie. You agree, through use of this service, NOT to use boards.ie to:


treat others with disrespect
defame, abuse, harass, stalk, threaten or otherwise violate the rights of others

that should be enough to cover everything regardless of individuality. There shouldn't be a need for a race / religion / sexuality specific entry into any charter. And that does treat all communities equally.

everything else is discussion and disagreement and these are healthy activities for any society.

gizmo81

The After Hours charter states

Rules and Guidelines.
You do not have absolute free speech.
No advertising or spam.
Personal abuse is not tolerated.
No porn. No links to porn.
No racism or immigrant bashing.
Sexism is not tolerated.
Do not post here simply to reach a larger audience.
Text speak is strictly forbidden.
No pointless threads, posts or polls.
Do not post any private phone numbers.
Rules on discussing drugs.
If there is a more appropriate forum, post your thread there.
No questioning moderator actions on thread.
No videos depicting violence, murder cruelty.
Excessive off-topic chat or flirting is not allowed.
Rickrolling / 4chan memes and similar link abuse not permitted.
Do not abuse the thread tag system.
No advocating criminality or violence.
Grammar nazis are not welcome here.
Contribute something of your own to any threads you start.
Rules on threads about sex and sexuality / Personal Issues threads / threads about soccer.
Information about bans and infractions.
Do not feed the trolls.
Do not post in really old / zombie threads.
Do not post libellous or copyright material.
Please do not post any more political threads in After Hours
Images in After Hours


Thinking that my identity/sexuality is up for discussion is ultimately heterosexist. We live our lives as we see fit and don't harm anyone by doing it.

After Hours bans racism, sexism, grammar, flirting, text speak but homophobic and transphobic abuse can't get a mention?

I'm baffled by these responses.

I'm going to ask that this thread is opened to other LGBTQ+ boards members.

LoLth

just because it is not specifically listed in the charter does not mean it is tolerated.

it has been stated multiple times in multiple ways that charters cannot cover all eventualities and to a degree the mods must apply a "don't be a dick" rule which comes under the Boards respect for other posters rule and actually is in the AH charter.

gizmo81

LoLth wrote: »

just because it is not specifically listed in the charter does not mean it is tolerated.

it has been stated multiple times in multiple ways that charters cannot cover all eventualities and to a degree the mods must apply a "don't be a dick" rule which comes under the Boards respect for other posters rule and actually is in the AH charter.

I'm asking why grammar, text speak, race are listed in the charter as things that are unacceptable and homophobia/transphobia is not?

Also having considered your earlier post;

my response is absolutely nothing to do with the LGBTQ+ community it is to do with YOU, your militant attitude and argumentative and combative style.

Joey raised this issue and had a dismissive response, so it's not just about just me.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057760208


The reaction to criticism or my perceived 'militant attitude and argumentative and combative style' makes no sense to me given what is at stake and is disproportionate to the reaction to homophobia and transphobia.

LoLth

No, joey raised an issue with PMs not being acknowledged which was dealt with then the content of the PM which was on the handling of a particular thread and was given a full response by LEIN which he disagreed with. There is a massive difference and there was no dismissive response involved. A lot of work and discussion went on in the background.

The reason there is no mention of homophobia/transphobia in the charter is because it has not been updated yet. It is being redrawn from scratch and cleaned up to make it easier to follow.

You assume, wrongly, that because an issue is not specifically mentioned then it is absolutely ok. I have explained that this is not the case.

are you reading the responses?

gizmo81

LoLth wrote: »

No, joey raised an issue with PMs not being acknowledged which was dealt with then the content of the PM which was on the handling of a particular thread and was given a full response by LEIN which he disagreed with. There is a massive difference and there was no dismissive response involved. A lot of work and discussion went on in the background.

The reason there is no mention of homophobia/transphobia in the charter is because it has not been updated yet. It is being redrawn from scratch and cleaned up to make it easier to follow.

You assume, wrongly, that because an issue is not specifically mentioned then it is absolutely ok. I have explained that this is not the case.

are you reading the responses?

If i said this I'd be reprimanded for being uncivil.

hullaballoo

gizmo81 wrote: »

If i said this I'd be reprimanded for being uncivil.

I'm going to take it that you have nothing further to add to the issue in this thread if this is the extent of your reply to the above.

gizmo81

hullaballoo wrote: »

I'm going to take it that you have nothing further to add to the issue in this thread if this is the extent of your reply to the above.

My point stands that you are creating a hierarchy of acceptable and unacceptable discrimination.

The mod yesterday said on the Trump thread when it was locked 'this is why we cannot have nice things' Nice things? Questioning LGBTQ+ peoples place in society is a nice thing?

LGBTQ+ existence doesn't need discussion, we exist, we are protected by IHRC and many other human rights laws.

Why does the charter of boards, mods and admins think it's acceptable every other day to debate, pride, employment rights, having children, etc etc. We do all these things. we work we celebrate, we commemorate, we reproduce, we love, etc etc

Why is this still a topic worthy of debate? Why have LGBTQ+ boardsies to come on boards every other day and defend themselves, their community and their culture?

hullaballoo

Discrimination is not accepted on this site.

As you rightly say, LGBT are protected by various national and international codices.

Not every rule has to be enumerated in order for it to be a rule. However, in this case, the rule is enumerated by the various documents setting out site- and forum-wide rules.

You are saying it is not sufficiently particularised but the site has always operated on the basis that you cannot have an exhaustive list of proscribed activities and any attempt so to do is bound to fail.

The preferred approach is to moderate on the basis of general principles, one such being that discrimination is not allowed. Another being that we are subject to the laws of the State.

gizmo81

hullaballoo wrote: »

Discrimination is not accepted on this site.

As you rightly say, LGBT are protected by various national and international codices.

Not every rule has to be enumerated in order for it to be a rule. However, in this case, the rule is enumerated by the various documents setting out site- and forum-wide rules.

You are saying it is not sufficiently particularised but the site has always operated on the basis that you cannot have an exhaustive list of proscribed activities and any attempt so to do is bound to fail.

The preferred approach is to moderate on the basis of general principles, one such being that discrimination is not allowed. Another being that we are subject to the laws of the State.

Ok, then why single out racism and immigrant bashing? Immigrant bashing was obviously added more recently because of a problem on the forum, would that be correct?

Other LGBTQ+ posters have stated that there is an increase in anti-gay/trans rhetoric in recent times, would that not warrant a clause being added?

No doubt I'll be accused of wanting special treatment but I don't.

LoLth

This has been dealt with by the AH mods.

the time taken was because they were re-working the entire charter and not just adding in a phrase or two.