Boiler Replacement - Can I still get a Conventional Gas Boiler (rather than a condens

daithi7

Hi there,

I have an apartment in Cork, and the gas boiler needs replacing. The existing boiler is a back boiler that users the same flu as the existing combo gas fire(which is still working). Replacing this boiler with a new condensing gas boiler means replumbing the apartment significantly, and relocating the new boiler to the kitchen as well as putting in an external flu and drain pipe. This is very disruptive & expensive.

1. I was wondering is it still possible to get a good conventional gas boiler replacement that could share the existing flu with the gas fire place?

2. What do I need to do to get appropriate grants (e.g. seia Grant?,
home renovation incentive??, can I apply for both of these on the one job???)

Thanks for all assistance
Daithi

Tom44

NO

Only condensing boilers can legally be fitted in Ireland now.

No grant available unless you also spend money breaking heating into a zoned system.

antoinolachtnai

Is this guidance still relevant? I do not know for sure.

http://www.seai.ie/Power_of_One/Heat_Your_Home_For_Less/Replacing_Your_Boiler/Condensing%20boiler%20installation%20for%20existing%20dwellings.pdf

I am not an expert, but from your description I would be concerned that your existing gas boiler might be arranged to draw air from inside your apartment rather than from the outside as a modern boiler would do. This is definitely not a very good arrangement and you really should not risk reinstalling it like this and only a very courageous installer would put this in for you. Moving the boiler is almost certainly going to be the best thing to do.

Boring a hole in the wall of the apartment for the flue should not be that expensive. It may be possible for the condensate drain to run internally. In this day and age, replumbing an apartment for this should not be that expensive either. The runs are very short and qual-pex pipe is cheap and easy to install.

You will also save a significant amount of gas (potentially hundreds of euros a year).

Dtp1979

Tom44 wrote: »

NO

Only condensing boilers can legally be fitted in Ireland now.

No grant available unless you also spend money breaking heating into a zoned system.

I'm pretty sure it's not illegal yet tom. On new builds yes. On retrofits it's not. I'm open to correction of course. Would I fit a non condensing boiler? Never.
Op I'm probably picking u up wrong but are u saying you have 2 appliances off the one flue?

DGOBS

A back boiler unit by the sounds of it Dec

daithi7

DGOBS wrote: »

A back boiler unit by the sounds of it Dec

Yup, that's it. its an old glow worm gas back boiler fire combo, circa 2000

1874

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Is this guidance still relevant? I do not know for sure.

http://www.seai.ie/Power_of_One/Heat_Your_Home_For_Less/Replacing_Your_Boiler/Condensing%20boiler%20installation%20for%20existing%20dwellings.pdf

I am not an expert, but from your description I would be concerned that your existing gas boiler might be arranged to draw air from inside your apartment rather than from the outside as a modern boiler would do. This is definitely not a very good arrangement and you really should not risk reinstalling it like this and only a very courageous installer would put this in for you. Moving the boiler is almost certainly going to be the best thing to do.

Boring a hole in the wall of the apartment for the flue should not be that expensive. It may be possible for the condensate drain to run internally. In this day and age, replumbing an apartment for this should not be that expensive either. The runs are very short and qual-pex pipe is cheap and easy to install.

You will also save a significant amount of gas (potentially hundreds of euros a year).

I was thinking of upgrading, while trying to see where the flue would be on the new condensing boiler option, I realised I dont have close access to drain condensate.
How long of a run of qualpex is acceptable to drain condensate? (assuming so long as its all a downhill run, it could be anything?) I would not want a joint in a condensate drain along its route and would prefer a straight run that could connect into the kitchen sink waste, drilling out the wall and running along would not be preferable as Id consider it unsightly. Is qualpex acceptable? the other thing that put me off the upgrade was no flush was offered and I thought this was essential for condensing boilers, Ive read there can be issues with condensing that dont have a proper flush, Im assuming the gunk in the pipes can block up the heat exchanger or at least on the secondary part of it? so either smaller passageways for water or the design is prone to being blocked??

mickdw

Dtp1979 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it's not illegal yet tom. On new builds yes. On retrofits it's not. I'm open to correction of course. Would I fit a non condensing boiler? Never.
Op I'm probably picking u up wrong but are u saying you have 2 appliances off the one flue?

As far as I'm aware part L of the building regs requires condensing boiler efficiency for all installations whether they be new builds or refits.

Dtp1979

mickdw wrote: »

As far as I'm aware part L of the building regs requires condensing boiler efficiency for all installations whether they be new builds or refits.

Maybe it's in effect now I'm not certain. It should be if it's not.

Pkiernan

Tom44 wrote: »

NO

Only condensing boilers can legally be fitted in Ireland now.

No grant available unless you also spend money breaking heating into a zoned system.

You are wrong.

Non condensing boilers may be fitted where it is impractical to fit a ccondensing.

OP full guidelines here. Check to see if you meet the conditions.

And don't believe the self professed experts on boards all the time.

http://www.seai.ie/Power_of_One/Heat_Your_Home_For_Less/Replacing_Your_Boiler/

sydthebeat

mickdw wrote: »

As far as I'm aware part L of the building regs requires condensing boiler efficiency for all installations whether they be new builds or refits.

The regs require new condensing boilers in all cases, unless it can be shown to be impractical or excessively costly.

However in true Irish regulation style, the assessment procedure to prove impracticality or excessive cost hasn't been published yet....even though it's called for in the 2011 regulations.

So the OP is still in a bit of a limbo.

One thing for certain is a non condensing boiler won't be grant assisted.

Dardania

Do you really need the gas fire? I've lived in apartments with them, and never switched them on...or if you do, get that lovely smell of burning dust

K.Flyer

This Might be the answer to the O.P.'s problem.

Baxi Bermuda HE Backboiler c/w built in condense pump

I don't know anymore about them other than what is on the link, but it could be worth looking into.


Edit:
forget about it, its discontinued

antoinolachtnai

I understand that the dream is over in relation to the Bermuda. See last para.

http://www.baxi.co.uk/a-warm-welcome-home-to-baxi-bermuda.htm

We are now almost a fifth way through the 21st century since Christ walked among us and proclaimed his good news. There are much better ways to do stuff!

K.Flyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I understand that the dream is over in relation to the Bermuda. See last para.

http://www.baxi.co.uk/a-warm-welcome-home-to-baxi-bermuda.htm

We are now almost a fifth way through the 21st century since Christ walked among us and proclaimed his good news. There are much better ways to do stuff!

After reading all the way down through that..

Dardania

K.Flyer wrote: »

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I understand that the dream is over in relation to the Bermuda. See last para.

http://www.baxi.co.uk/a-warm-welcome-home-to-baxi-bermuda.htm

We are now almost a fifth way through the 21st century since Christ walked among us and proclaimed his good news. There are much better ways to do stuff!

After reading all the way down through that..

I did too - it sounded really promising. I was somewhat distraught at the end when I found out the main character died!

1874

I appreciate this is a hijack, but does anyone have any insight into my post below?
Someone has written that a non condensing boiler may be fitted if a condensing boiler doesnt suit/fit, but the guidelines havent been written, so does the situation below constitute that?
Overall I was happy enough with the boiler but it was getting a bit older and I had some things fixed on it, which is the luck of the draw I suppose and to be expected, but the option to upgrade came up at a good price on an Ideal logic so I considered it, I realised the problem of no route to drain the condensate due to the location of the boiler and then no flush being mentioned, I thought I better stick with the boiler in place as there may be less problems with it than upgrading and not getting a flush of the system.
Are non condensing boilers even available as replacements?

1874 wrote: »

I was thinking of upgrading, while trying to see where the flue would be on the new condensing boiler option, I realised I dont have close access to drain condensate.
How long of a run of qualpex is acceptable to drain condensate? (assuming so long as its all a downhill run, it could be anything?) I would not want a joint in a condensate drain along its route and would prefer a straight run that could connect into the kitchen sink waste, drilling out the wall and running along would not be preferable as Id consider it unsightly. Is qualpex acceptable? the other thing that put me off the upgrade was no flush was offered and I thought this was essential for condensing boilers, Ive read there can be issues with condensing that dont have a proper flush, Im assuming the gunk in the pipes can block up the heat exchanger or at least on the secondary part of it? so either smaller passageways for water or the design is prone to being blocked??

K.Flyer

From what you are saying the main issue is routing for the condense.
There are several options available to manage condense, and usually it can be worked out with a bit of thought.
Apartments can be tricky, but houses are generally easy enough to work around. What was the reason given for the difficulty and what type of property is it.
And I would never use qualpex or metal tubing of any sort for condense anyway.

antoinolachtnai

You could run the condensate pipe (a 3/4 inch white plastic drainpipe) at a low level along the outside of the wall so it wouldn't look as nasty though you do need enough fall so the water in it won't freeze, but that's not much. Joins in the rigid pipe are (or should be) made with a solvent weld. It won't leak. You can also get flexible pipe for indoors and this might suit behind cabinets. http://www.screwfix.com/p/mcalpine-flexible-condensate-pipe-kit/7751p# If you are really stuck a condensate pump is a possibility. With a little imagination you will solve this.

1874

K.Flyer wrote: »

From what you are saying the main issue is routing for the condense.
There are several options available to manage condense, and usually it can be worked out with a bit of thought.
Apartments can be tricky, but houses are generally easy enough to work around. What was the reason given for the difficulty and what type of property is it.
And I would never use qualpex or metal tubing of any sort for condense anyway.

Routing, yes. Its a house but the boiler isnt on the same level as the kitchen or near a drain and not accessible internally without pulling off a plasterboard wall, and I dont know if there is space for a drain behind that, the flexible condensate pipe mentioned above looks like it might behind the plasterboard.
Im not sure if Im misinterpreting the technical spec, but I think they might be wrong, it says 3000mm long so 3metres, ok, but that it looks round section and they say H400mm x D500mm, that cant be right, surely they mean 40 OR 50mm diameter, its round so both measurements should be the same? and not 400 OR 500mm?? that must be a typo!

As for the reason, I wasn't given one, as I had just been given a price quote and the type of boiler for a potential upgrade, the installer hasn't even seen the location, they might have assumed the location was near a drain. I realised myself when I was making some measurements to check if the new boiler would fit in the same space as the old boiler with regard to the flue, it dawned on me that Id need a condensate drain, which isn't required on the current boiler. I'm not sure if that condensate drain from scrwfix would reach to an existing drain, I prefer not running a drain down the outside of the house, but that might be the easiest or only option.The current boiler works now but its not condensing, Im weighing if its worth it in terms of saved expense/efficiency now as here seems to be extra cost involved in removing a plasterboard wall I had not intended on.
There was no mention of a flush as part of the boiler change either, which Im thinking could cause me problems with a condensing boiler later on, maybe thats why the deal seemed so attractive at first as its not as complete as it needs to be plus the fitter isn't aware its not a standard location for the boiler.

antoinolachtnai

It's much smaller than you're thinking. According to the Q+A on the website:

"Conents of kit are 1 x 3m length of 25mm flexible pipe, 6 x 25mm pipe clips, 2 x straight connectors with universal connections suitable for 19/23mm rigid and 25mm flexible pipe, 1 x 1½" plain tail ABS solvent weld reducer to 19/23mm rigid and 25mm flexible pipe"

I really think there will be a way of resolving this. Someone at all handy won't need to pull down the plasterboard wall; they'll drill a few holes to allow them pull the pipe along if they really need to. If you are really concerned about the external appearance aybe they could bring the plastic pipe straight down behind the plasterboard to the skirting board level, then put it out through the wall into a 40mm drainpipe running along at a low level or maybe buried along the outside of the house to the nearest drain.