Was Abraham born again?

antiskeptic

From another thread:


Tatranska was arguing that Abraham wasn't born again because Christ had not yet carried out his work on the cross.

I said:

God occupies eternity so isn't confined in his operation the same way we are. In eternity, Jesus' work was done (if you'll excuse the necessary introduction of a temporal idea, i.e. "was", in order to begin to examine eternity) before Abraham was saved.

"All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the Lamb's book of life, the Lamb who was slain from the creation of the world." Rev 13:8

In other words, it didn't take the temporal sacrifice of Jesus to obtain the result of the temporal sacrifice of Jesus. That work was done in eternity.

Abraham was, as the OT recounts, justified by faith and is chosen as a model to describe how all who are saved will be saved. In his case he believed God. In NT times we believe God.

I can't see how someone who is described as justified by faith a.k.a. credited with righteous can't also be described as born again - irrespective of them living before or after Jesus.

It seems to me that the efficacy of Christs sacrifice was operative from the creation of the world, per Revelation.

Lucy8080

antiskeptic wrote: »

From another thread:


Tatranska was arguing that Abraham wasn't born again because Christ had not yet carried out his work on the cross.

I said:



Abraham was, as the OT recounts, justified by faith and is chosen as a model to describe how all who are saved will be saved. In his case he believed God. In NT times we believe God.

I can't see how someone who is described as justified by faith a.k.a. credited with righteous can't also be described as born again - irrespective of them living before or after Jesus.

It seems to me that the efficacy of Christs sacrifice was operative from the creation of the world, per Revelation.

I'm drawing from memory here,correct me if I am wrong. I'm of the impression that Paul called the story of Abraham an allegory. The story of Jesus seems to take it's provenance from Abraham,as justification of authenticity.

How does allegory give rise to historical fact , facts which folks seem to be falling out about?

Is it history or allegory?

antiskeptic

Lucy8080 wrote: »

I'm drawing from memory here,correct me if I am wrong. I'm of the impression that Paul called the story of Abraham an allegory. The story of Jesus seems to take it's provenance from Abraham,as justification of authenticity.

How does allegory give rise to historical fact , facts which folks seem to be falling out about?

Is it history or allegory?

I don't see anything in the passage in Romans that suggests allegory.

He does point the possibility of extracting allegory from the historical occurrence of Abrahams wives in Galatians 4, if that's what you're referring to?

Peregrinus

An allegory is a story, picture, etc that can be interpreted to reveal a broader, ulterior or hidden meaning.

The underlying story may in fact be factual; that doesn't stop it being employed as an allegory.

Most of the allegories that we are familiar with have been created by the author for use as an allegory, and they are of course fictional. But Paul takes an existing story and uses it to explain or illustrate a meaning not immediately evident in the story (and in fact the whole Christian interpretive tradition with respect to the Old Testament is to see it as prefiguring, or casting light on, the central events of the New Testament). That tells us nothing about whether the story of Abraham, or other stories in the OT, are factual or not. Either way, they can serve as allegories.

uck51js9zml2yt

Jeremiah speaks of a future time when people would receive a new heart and a new spirit. i.e rebirth.

antiskeptic

Dayana Strong Chair wrote: »

Jeremiah speaks of a future time when people would receive a new heart and a new spirit. i.e rebirth.

I see your Jerimiah and raise you the thief on the cross

Tlk l8r

uck51js9zml2yt

antiskeptic wrote: »

I see your Jerimiah and raise you the thief on the cross

Tlk l8r

The Spirit hadnt been given pre Pentecost. A requirement for rebirth!

antiskeptic

Dayana Strong Chair wrote: »

The Spirit hadn't been given pre Pentecost. A requirement for rebirth!

What's the connection between the Spirit given at Pentecost and being born again?

Evidently the Spirit was active before Pentecost. The thief on the cross went through a transformation, displaying lost characteristics one minute and found characteristics the next.

What do you make of Jesus saying that all who believe in Him have eternal life. Present tense, pre-cross. And there were people around him who believed in Him and had, according to Jesus, eternal life. Pre-cross

uck51js9zml2yt

antiskeptic wrote: »

What's the connection between the Spirit given at Pentecost and being born again?

Evidently the Spirit was active before Pentecost. The thief on the cross went through a transformation, displaying lost characteristics one minute and found characteristics the next.

What do you make of Jesus saying that all who believe in Him have eternal life. Present tense, pre-cross. And there were people around him who believed in Him and had, according to Jesus, eternal life. Pre-cross

John 7
On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

They may have believed but they hadn't received the Spirit nor the life of God within.Hence the question being asked in Acts, have you received the Spirit since you believed.

The cross transcended time with His salvation being made effective throughout time.

antiskeptic

Dayana Strong Chair wrote: »

John 7 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, “If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink. 38He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

They may have believed but they hadn't received the Spirit..

The Spirit of who? Christ might I suggest? What about the Spirit of God who was active from the start?

I don't see the connection with being born again in the above.

They may have believed but they hadn't received the Spirit nor the life of God within.Hence the question being asked in Acts, have you received the Spirit since you believed.

You would accept, I take it, that there is a difference between:

- a believer being equipped with the Spirit for a task set him (for example, the Spirit speaking through David in a Psalm or Peter and John filled with the Holy Spirit such as to have the courage to face down the Sanhedrin (both referenced in Acts 4. Vs 8 and 25).

- receiving the Spirit on salvation.


What you reference appears to be equipping. People are given power, people are encouraged, people risk death, people are turned from Sauls into Pauls

-

What we appear to have all over the Bible, before Christ/Christ died, is people who believe, people who are transformed, people who put their trust in God, people who are aware of their sinfulness, people who have hope in God, people who pray to God, people who love righteousness, people who are empowered by the spirit and life of God, etc. etc..

They display all the characteristics people who are born again are supposed to display. If it's not the holy spirit they are missing (since an equipping holy spirit isn't a salvation related holy spirit) then what stops them from being born again in fact?

The cross transcended time with His salvation being made effective throughout time.

I agree. Abraham will be saved by the work of Jesus Christ. But he was saved, back then, having been justified by faith in God.

uck51js9zml2yt

Yet paul says that if we don't have the Spirit, we are not his.

What do you think Jesus did when he went into hell and spoke to those in there. Having done so, he led the captive out!

antiskeptic

Dayana Strong Chair wrote: »

Yet paul says that if we don't have the Spirit, we are not his.

Look at all the references in that passage to the Spirit of God and how those who have the Spirit of God/him who raised Jesus from the dead residing in them are described. They live by the Spirit, not the flesh, they are children of God, they have eternal life...

What we appear to have is a duck situation: if it looks like a duck, swims like
a duck and quacks like a duck .. then we're probably looking at a duck.

What do you think Jesus did when he went into hell and spoke to those in there.

No idea.

Having done so, he led the captive out!

Where is this written?

uck51js9zml2yt

antiskeptic wrote: »

Look at all the references in that passage to the Spirit of God and how those who have the Spirit of God/him who raised Jesus from the dead residing in them are described. They live by the Spirit, not the flesh, they are children of God, they have eternal life...

What we appear to have is a duck situation: if it looks like a duck, swims like
a duck and quacks like a duck .. then we're probably looking at a duck.





No idea.



Where is this written?

I'm not spoon feeding you on my phone. Go to an online bible and do a search:)
To give you a start. It says He preached to them!

Peregrinus

The "harrowing of hell". There are brief references in 1 Peter 3 and 4 and in Ephesians 4, and these are the basis for the statement in the Apostle's Creed that after Jesus was crucified, died and was buried "he descended into hell". The scriptural references are very brief and are susceptible of a number of interpretations, one of which is that offered by Tat. Non-scriptural apocryphal writings like the Gospel of Nicodemus give a much fuller account, and the subject was a favourite topic of medieval devotional art, and of passion plays and mystery plays.

But there were also contrary views. Augustine, for example, suggested that the notion was to be understood allegorically, rather than as an actual event in salvation history (like, say, the crucifixion).