Employee won't work notice

denis160

Is there any comeback for employers when an employee decides to leave but won't work their agreed notice, therefore leaving their employer in a situation where they have no one to cover for them? An employer has to give the correct notice or pay in lieu, is there anything similar for employees?

cml387

Short of chaining him/her to the desk, no there isn't.
The only sanction would be a "no rehire" on their final record.

Senna

If the notice period is in the employees contract, the employer could take a case against for breech for contract.
I dont think it would ever happen unless you are a critical cog in the organisation, like a CEO.

Burning bridges and not getting a reference from the employer are the reason people work out notice even when they would love to just walk out the door.

BizzyC

If they don't work the notice period as required by their contract then I'm pretty sure you can withhold pay for that period.

seamus

BizzyC wrote: »

If they don't work the notice period as required by their contract then I'm pretty sure you can withhold pay for that period.

Yeah, pretty much.

Most contracts won't have a specific clause for unapproved absences, but the employer would be entitled to assign any unworked days as "unpaid leave" and not pay the employee for those days.

The specific issue obviously is that the employer doesn't have cover for that period, and as said you can't chain someone to a desk. And even if you did, would you really want them there?

You can sue for breach of contract, take an action against the employee for any costs incurred in having to cover their notice. Though simply taking their pay and giving it to other employees in the form of overtime is probably cheaper and more effective.

I would also make a note on any employee file and if anyone calls looking for a reference you specifically tell them that the employee refused to work out his notice and left the company stuck.
No, that's not a Data Protection breach and yes, it is perfectly legal.

Senna

BizzyC wrote: »

If they don't work the notice period as required by their contract then I'm pretty sure you can withhold pay for that period.

For the period they didn't work? Of course you don't have to pay them for a period of when they did not work.
But you cannot withhold pay for a period they did work due to then breaching their contract.

jimmycrackcorm

seamus wrote:

I would also make a note on any employee file and if anyone calls looking for a reference you specifically tell them that the employee refused to work out his notice and left the company stuck. No, that's not a Data Protection breach and yes, it is perfectly legal.

I think we must be hearing only one side of the story. For an employee to walk out and not only not work their notice but have no reference to use just suggests there's something more.

For the OPs question though, he has the same recourse as an employee has if their employer doesn't fulfil their side of the contract.

denis160

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think we must be hearing only one side of the story. For an employee to walk out and not only not work their notice but have no reference to use just suggests there's something more.

For the OPs question though, he has the same recourse as an employee has if their employer doesn't fulfil their side of the contract.

Just to clarify, I never made any suggestion of withholding reference, I simply asked if an employee can leave without working notice, & the answer is yes they can. In reply to your post of a one sided story, the commute is too long for an otherwise good employee, who decided to communicate this message on a Saturday night via email to let me know he wouldn't be in work Monday. His actions left me having to get replacement at very short notice, simple as!

C3PO

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

For the OPs question though, he has the same recourse as an employee has if their employer doesn't fulfil their side of the contract.

That's a bit disingenuous ... it's a lot easier and more practical for an employee to take a case against an employer rather than the other way around!

Daledge

seamus wrote: »

I would also make a note on any employee file and if anyone calls looking for a reference you specifically tell them that the employee refused to work out his notice and left the company stuck.
No, that's not a Data Protection breach and yes, it is perfectly legal.

Many employers are afraid to give negative reviews because unless it's 100% true, it's grounds for the employee to take legal action.

jimmycrackcorm

C3PO wrote:

That's a bit disingenuous ... it's a lot easier and more practical for an employee to take a case against an employer rather than the other way around!

It's actually not because the process is long and arduous, taking at least a year and is more risky for an employee who will be tainted even if innocent.

jimmycrackcorm

denis160 wrote:

Just to clarify, I never made any suggestion of withholding reference, I simply asked if an employee can leave without working notice, & the answer is yes they can. In reply to your post of a one sided story, the commute is too long for an otherwise good employee, who decided to communicate this message on a Saturday night via email to let me know he wouldn't be in work Monday. His actions left me having to get replacement at very short notice, simple as!

I wasn't insinuating that you wouldn't withhold a reference, rather that no former employee leaving without notice would do so expecting to get a good reference.

Either way it's a strange occurrence.

Tzar Chasm

In some industries it is standard practice to not Allow an employee work their leave.

How badly could this Employee Fcuk you over if they were at work under duress?

narwhal

I would tell them that it is an 'unauthorised absence' and they are not going to be paid for it.

Then when it's reference time, just don't give one. Or don't be positive. Leave note of it on their file.

Nody

narwhal wrote: »

I would tell them that it is an 'unauthorised absence' and they are not going to be paid for it.

Then when it's reference time, just don't give one. Or don't be positive. Leave note of it on their file.

They have to legally confirm their position and start and end date; however there are many ways of making sure the other side gets the unspoken message about the employee over if they are not a good employee in general. Secondly as the reference has to be factual you can document and send it formally to the employee that they were absent without cause for the days from X to Y, add it to their file and bring that up in every reference since it's truthful and fully documented.

denis160

Thanks for replies, so it seems that yes employees can just leave on a whim with no recourse, but employers can not let someone go without proper notice or pay them in lieu of notice. It should work both ways really in that if an employee that is leaving has holidays due but doesn't give notice then that notice should be taken from holidays due.

boardsuser1

I walked out of a job last year, gave them 1 hours notice, the time it took me to get back to the depot.

Wasn't paid off and i am blacklisted by that company.

Every other time i have been paid off.

Nody

denis160 wrote: »

Thanks for replies, so it seems that yes employees can just leave on a whim with no recourse, but employers can not let someone go without proper notice or pay them in lieu of notice. It should work both ways really in that if an employee that is leaving has holidays due but doesn't give notice then that notice should be taken from holidays due.

Welcome to to the idiosyncrasies of Irish working legislation. Only final thing you can do is reduce his holiday pay by the days he's not there as well. Not going to add up to much but right should be right.

narwhal

Nody wrote: »

They have to legally confirm their position and start and end date; however there are many ways of making sure the other side gets the unspoken message about the employee over if they are not a good employee in general. Secondly as the reference has to be factual you can document and send it formally to the employee that they were absent without cause for the days from X to Y, add it to their file and bring that up in every reference since it's truthful and fully documented.

I have read a number of times that employers aren't legally obliged to give a reference, which I would have assumed included confirming the position, start and end date. I'm not doubting you, but just want to know for my own benefit in the future, do you know what regulations place a duty on employers to confirm the position, start and end date?

boardsuser1

Can someone give me an example of what an employer discloses on the case of good references and bad references?

I've always been curious.

A job I had 11 years ago said 'your references weren't great'

The company wouldn't expand on what they meant.

cdeb

denis160 wrote: »

Thanks for replies, so it seems that yes employees can just leave on a whim with no recourse, but employers can not let someone go without proper notice or pay them in lieu of notice. It should work both ways really in that if an employee that is leaving has holidays due but doesn't give notice then that notice should be taken from holidays due.

Yep. Really all the company can do is withhold final pay and P45 until the end of the notice period, on the grounds that the company's view is that the employee is employed up until then, and not the earlier date advised by the employee. This will give them small problems with emergency tax in their new role for a couple of weeks, and may help dissuade other employees from doing the same thing. (I've come across some larger companies who claim to do P45s once a month or something similar - this is technically not legal, but like with the employee not working their notice, what can you do about it?)

micks

cdeb wrote: »

Yep. Really all the company can do is withhold final pay and P45 until the end of the notice period, on the grounds that the company's view is that the employee is employed up until then, and not the earlier date advised by the employee. This will give them small problems with emergency tax in their new role for a couple of weeks, and may help dissuade other employees from doing the same thing. (I've come across some larger companies who claim to do P45s once a month or something similar - this is technically not legal, but like with the employee not working their notice, what can you do about it?)

pointless excercise! all someone has to do is submit a p46 in lieu

Nody

narwhal wrote: »

I have read a number of times that employers aren't legally obliged to give a reference, which I would have assumed included confirming the position, start and end date. I'm not doubting you, but just want to know for my own benefit in the future, do you know what regulations place a duty on employers to confirm the position, start and end date?

There are multiple UK cases but in general what I fall back on is "references are normal in your particular industry" as per for example this solicitor. Once it's considered "standard" even if not stated it becomes part of the deal

micks

denis160 wrote: »

Is there any comeback for employers when an employee decides to leave but won't work their agreed notice, therefore leaving their employer in a situation where they have no one to cover for them? An employer has to give the correct notice or pay in lieu, is there anything similar for employees?

What is the agreed notice period?
WHat type of contract has this employee?
How long are they in the position?
What type of role have they in your organisation?

cdeb

micks wrote: »

pointless excercise! all someone has to do is submit a p46 in lieu

Would tax credits not remain with original employer though?

The employee could phone Revenue and ask to move the credits to the new employer - or you can even do it online, as P46s are being phased out - so ultimately as you say it is a little bit pointless.

But it's still about all you can legally do. And if it adds a layer of awkwardness to the process, or causes the employee to get taxed at emergency tax even once, and other employees are aware of this, it might encourage them to work out their notice.

But not much more you can do though.

micks

cdeb wrote: »

Would tax credits not remain with original employer though?

The employee could phone Revenue and ask to move the credits to the new employer - or you can even do it online, as P46s are being phased out - so ultimately as you say it is a little bit pointless.

But it's still about all you can legally do. And if it adds a layer of awkwardness to the process, or causes the employee to get taxed at emergency tax even once, and other employees are aware of this, it might encourage them to work out their notice.

But not much more you can do though.

I've changed jobs twice in last 4 yrs
when i offered p45 to payroll 1st time new job told me to ring revenue and give their employer no.
current job gave me a p46 to fill out when i hadnt received p45 by start date

both times - no impact to tax credits or tax paid

cdeb

Yep. So slightly more awkward for you than if you had your P45 when starting. (Strange that someone would decline a P45, but anyway)

And it is possible you wouldn't have details ready for the first pay day (especially if you're paid weekly)

And with P46s being phased out in favour of online notifications by the employee, it'll be even less effective.

Doesn't change the fact that it's about the only thing an employer can do in this situation - just be a little bit of an awkward prick, and then move on.

wmpdd3

While I agree the situation is difficult to manage, what was would be your plan if the person was involved in a serious accident over the weekend?

There needs to be a cover policy in place, even in very small businesses.