BMW F10 warping discs

RobAMerc

So the disks in my BMW 520d warped at about 60k miles.
I'd only done 10k of them and it was in warranty so the dealer I bought it off replaced them.
1000kms later the same happened again - but the warranty had run out ( and in fairness I never thought they should be covered ) - so I had to have them done myself.
I got the same guy the dealer used to do them again.

He told me that all 5 series are warping disks like mad because of people using them for a mix of town and city driving :pac::pac:

Anyway - some 700kms later they've only gone and started shuddering again ???

Is this F10 problem so bad that it happens this often?
Is it likely that the problem is caused by the explanation given ( I seriously doubt it )

BMW told me it was caused by a worn wheel bearing ( it was replaced despite being perfectly fine )

Or is it that the discs are warping because the guy is fitting them wrong or is fitting rubbish discs ?

grogi

RobAMerc wrote: »

He told me that all 5 series are warping disks like mad because of people using them for a mix of town and city driving :pac::pac:

ROTFL

Check the calipers and use different brand of discs this time.

Bearing might be an issue as well, but would need to have a lot of movement to cause disc warping IMHO.

Paddy@CIRL

The juddering is not necessarily a 'warped' disc, in fact, it rarely is. It's very hard to physically warp a disc, but what you could be getting is pad build up on the discs. Is the car an auto? Do you sit with your foot on the brake in traffic? What can happen is that you drive as normal, build up some heat in the brakes and then stop with your foot on the brake for a prolonged period in traffic. Your pads can then leave a trace of material on the discs, which over time can build up and cause a judder.

I would double check if the discs and pads used are of good quality, that your suspension bushes, ball joints etc are in good order etc. I would try re-bedding the brakes first to see if it clears the material on the discs, but if that doesn't work, I'd just get the discs skimmed.

They definitely shouldn't be letting you down like that so often.

biko

That sounds pretty crazy but googling shows many have similar discs issue.
Maybe it's not the discs but bad pads leaving material behind unevenly?
You/mechanic needs to take them off and check.
Possibly skimming the discs will show something.

Toyotafanboi

RobAMerc wrote: »

I got the same guy the dealer used to do them again.

That sentence almost worry me more than anything else?

The same guy the dealer used to do your discs? If a dealer was sorting my discs for me, I'd be expecting them to take a new set of discs off the shelf, take them out of the box and fit them.

That sentence implies that they either outsourced the supply and fit or had the discs skimmed to me. Depending on the supplier, if they fitted spurious discs they may just be crap and if the discs were skimmed, particularly twice, they may just be ****ed.

RobAMerc

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

The juddering is not necessarily a 'warped' disc, in fact, it rarely is. It's very hard to physically warp a disc, but what you could be getting is pad build up on the discs. Is the car an auto? Do you sit with your foot on the brake in traffic? What can happen is that you drive as normal, build up some heat in the brakes and then stop with your foot on the brake for a prolonged period in traffic. Your pads can then leave a trace of material on the discs, which over time can build up and cause a judder.

I would double check if the discs and pads used are of good quality, that your suspension bushes, ball joints etc are in good order etc. I would try re-bedding the breaks first to see if it clears the material on the discs, but if that doesn't work, I'd just get the discs skimmed.

They definitely shouldn't be letting you down like that so often.

This certainly sounds a lot more plausible than what I was told.
And yes, I do use the "Autohold" feature a lot - but no more than I did in my previous F10

I doubt there is anything wrong with the suspension - its just been through the NCT where everything checked out as very well balanced, and it drove well for the first 300kms after I had it done.
And BMW themselves checked it out ( although I am not sure what that means as their diagnosis is nonsense imo, there was nothing wrong with the bearing )

Could it be then that the pads are totally sh*t and its them that are sticking to the discs ?

kerten

RobAMerc wrote: »

This certainly sounds a lot more plausible than what I was told.
And yes, I do use the "Autohold" feature a lot - but no more than I did in my previous F10

I doubt there is anything wrong with the suspension - its just been through the NCT where everything checked out as very well balanced, and it drove well for the first 300kms after I had it done.
And BMW themselves checked it out ( although I am not sure what that means as their diagnosis is nonsense imo, there was nothing wrong with the bearing )

Could it be then that the pads are totally sh*t and its them that are sticking to the discs ?

Have you checked the temperature of alloys immediately after driving the car ?

If it is a sticking caliper, excessive heat from alloy will confirm it.

rabbitinlights

Have you tried some high speed/energy braking to remove any build up?

Motorway speed down to 20/30kmph - don't come to a full stop, but do it a few times and see if it helps - Make sure it's safe etc.

RobAMerc

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

That sentence almost worry me more than anything else?

The same guy the dealer used to do your discs?

Do you think every car dealer has a mechanic on hand and set of BMW F10 discs on the shelf to fit ?
Yes, he outsourced it.

kerten wrote: »

Have you checked the temperature of alloys immediately after driving the car ?

If it is a sticking caliper, excessive heat from alloy will confirm it.

I've not done that - I will though

rabbitinlights wrote: »

Have you tried some high speed/energy braking to remove any build up?

Motorway speed down to 20/30kmph - don't come to a full stop, but do it a few times and see if it helps - Make sure it's safe etc.

Yes, I got her up to XXXkph and jumped on the brakes - I was seriously impressed with the braking from that speed, and how straight she braked - its also the first time I've seen the hazards every come on due to brake force ( I am happy to say )

Toyotafanboi

RobAMerc wrote: »

Do you think every car dealer has a mechanic on hand and set of BMW F10 discs on the shelf to fit ?
Yes, he outsourced it.

Sorry, when you said you brought it to a dealer, I assumed you brought it to a franchise dealer. You brought it to an independent, that's different.

Pkiernan

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

The juddering is not necessarily a 'warped' disc, in fact, it rarely is. It's very hard to physically warp a disc, but what you could be getting is pad build up on the discs. Is the car an auto? Do you sit with your foot on the brake in traffic? What can happen is that you drive as normal, build up some heat in the brakes and then stop with your foot on the brake for a prolonged period in traffic. Your pads can then leave a trace of material on the discs, which over time can build up and cause a judder.

.

If this was the case then every car in the USA would have this problem.

Gumbo

Have a 132 F10 MSport since new.
No warping discs on it.

Paddy@CIRL

Pkiernan wrote: »

If this was the case then every car in the USA would have this problem.

Only if they have ****e brake pads.

Toyotafanboi

Pkiernan wrote: »

If this was the case then every car in the USA would have this problem.

Paddy@CIRL wrote: »

Only if they have ****e brake pads.

If pad material were to somehow transfer a noteworthy amount of brake pad onto the disc from pressure alone, how does it build up? Would it not get cleaned off the next time the person brakes?

Otherwise surely the disc wouldn't fit through the pads anymore and when the car is driving the disc would be cutting chunks out of the pad.

deandean

The OEM BMW disks and pads are very good, in my experience.
It's more likely that you have wear in a ball joint on one of the suspension arms.
Grab a front wheel and the 3o'c and 9o'c positions and try rock it back and forth, hard. Is there any play?

RobAMerc

deandean wrote: »

The OEM BMW disks and pads are very good, in my experience.
It's more likely that you have wear in a ball joint on one of the suspension arms.
Grab a front wheel and the 3o'c and 9o'c positions and try rock it back and forth, hard. Is there any play?

Its just passed the NCT 3 weeks ago with no play noted in the wheels.
Wouldn't the NCT suspension (side slip) tests have picked up on this ?
I only know because a previous car I had failed on that.

The Bishop Basher

I had this problem on 2 e60's..

Fitting OEM discs and pads certainly helped. So did "bedding" them in regularly. I was ultra careful not to sit on the brakes at lights etc..

But i still struggled to get more than about 6k out of a pair.

Eventually I got the point where I just lived with the juddering.

RobAMerc

RobAMerc wrote: »

Its just passed the NCT 3 weeks ago with no play noted in the wheels.
Wouldn't the NCT suspension (side slip) tests have picked up on this ?
I only know because a previous car I had failed on that.

I had disconcerting steering feedback for want of a better word on a car before...... mechanic checked it out and said there was a worn balljoint which was replaced. Still the same symptoms. At motorway speeds non straight sections were uncomfortable to steer. Especially overtaking trucks etc.

Passed next NCT no problem. When getting an air conditioning part fitted along with an oil change at a garage the air con guy recommended I was told my inner tie rods were worn.

The side slip test wouldn't pick up on the issue at all but in your case the inspection by the tester should but might not.

RobAMerc

Augeo wrote: »

I had disconcerting steering feedback for want of a better word on a car before...... mechanic checked it out and said there was a worn balljoint which was replaced. Still the same symptoms. At motorway speeds non straight sections were uncomfortable to steer. Especially overtaking trucks etc.

Passed next NCT no problem. When getting an air conditioning part fitted along with an oil change at a garage the air con guy recommended I was told my inner tie rods were worn.

The side slip test wouldn't pick up on the issue at all but in your case the inspection by the tester should but might not.

The steering is still accurate and sharp as ever - it's only when I go lightly on the brakes I can feel the shudder - as I go harder on them it goes out of it, but its still progressively getting worse over time.

RobAMerc

RobAMerc wrote: »

The steering is still accurate and sharp as ever - it's only when I go lightly on the brakes I can feel the shudder - as I go harder on them it goes out of it, but its still progressively getting worse over time.

Apologies, I was just commenting that there can be an issue that goes unnoticed at NCT time.
Both a mechanic and the NCT lads didn't think my inner tie rod ends were worn but another mechanic did and replacing them sorted my issue

mullingar

All brake discs can warp. I've seen it many times, especially on heavier cars.

The only solution that has ever worked long term is to put a high quality disc on it, i would definitely recommend EBC discs. Avoid motor factor specials.

RobAMerc

so the mechanic is telling me its because of the way its been driven ! and that Hella Pagid who supplied them is very unlikely to replace them under warranty.
a friend asked a BMW tech he is friendly with and he says there is no way they should be warping after such small mileage ( I'd be inclined to believe he's be honest there was a problem if there really was ), he too suggests a sticking caliper or wheel bearing ( also what BMW suggested )


Just to recap on the story so far.

The car originally went in to have the EGR valve replaced and brake discs done.
The car ran worse and the EGR had to be replaced again.
The discs warped and the discs needed to be replaced again ( about 1k kms later )
The discs have warped again. ( 700kms later )

3 sets of discs and 2 EGR valves in 3 months ???? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

mullingar

RobAMerc wrote: »

so the mechanic is telling me its because of the way its been driven ! and that Hella Pagid who supplied them is very unlikely to replace them under warranty.
a friend asked a BMW tech he is friendly with and he says there is no way they should be warping after such small mileage ( I'd be inclined to believe he's be honest there was a problem if there really was ), he too suggests a sticking caliper or wheel bearing ( also what BMW suggested )


Just to recap on the story so far.

The car originally went in to have the EGR valve replaced and brake discs done.
The car ran worse and the EGR had to be replaced again.
The discs warped and the discs needed to be replaced again ( about 1k kms later )
The discs have warped again. ( 700kms later )

3 sets of discs and 2 EGR valves in 3 months ???? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Re brakes,

If your hubs/bearings are not 100% true, you will have a slight warp to begin with and it will force the disc to bend out of shape during braking and will cause it to warp.

Get your hubs/discs checked for run-out. Very simple test and will identify if the hubs, discs or both are warped.

BavarianCare

This post was brought to my attention by someone who has similar issue and even though it's an old post, I thought I'd explain...
======
Yes, F10 models are giving a lot of problems with 'warped' brake disks. Warped is not the correct term though. Disks VERY, VERY, VERY rarely warp and if they do they were 'warped' at manufacture stage. These are the cheapo or counterfeit disks. I won't name brands but they're widely known in the trade.

The 'warping' is in actual fact DTV (Disk Thickness Variation) and this can be caused by many things, including, inter alia, pad quality, disk quality, fitting procedure, bedding in procedure.

The most common F10 on the road is the 520d, which has the '429' disk, which currently has supply issues from DE.

This disk is a 'composite' disk or 'two part' disk from factory, and also a 'coated' disk. For this reason alone, you should never use cheaper disks as they are more expensive to manufacture than older type one piece disks.

Some German manufacturers do make a single piece disk for this application in addition to a composite. I've never had any issue with quality disks and pads PROVIDED they are fitted correctly.

To give an idea of how these disks are different consider this;
1. Pagid are a major brake supplier and even are OEM supplier for brakes on one particular BMW model. Look at the glorified blurb they sent the trade about it a few years ago...
2. The 429 disk was released approx 2009 year end.
3. Here we are, as of 2018.04.24 and Pagid still don't have a disk for this application. It's 'In Preparation' for the past 18mths.

The wheel bearing, suspension etc. potential issues that have been mentioned above are valid. But it is Euromillions winning territory to think that is the issue.
======
Long story short:
1. Top tier quality parts
2. Top tier mechanic to fit
3. Bed-in correctly
4. No problems


======
Edit/Further Info

https://pagid.com/2015/06/16/pagid-supplies-oe-new-bmw-x4/
Note that they (Pagid) are OE suppliers for 3 different BMW models now but still don't have a disk for the 'old' F10

https://www.brakebook.com/bb/pagid/en_GB/65129_82/datasheet.xhtml
Current status of Pagid disk (not that I'd use for this application).

http://www.stoptech.com/technical-support/technical-white-papers/-warped-brake-disc-and-other-myths
http://www.mossmotoring.com/warped-brake-rotors-the-facts/
For those that wish to read up on the technical detail of what happens at a molecular level

Lord Nikon

Is is more noticable on vehicles with auto boxes than with manual boxes? With an auto box, probably best not to keep foot on the brake after heavy braking. Best put the car in Neutral or Park with handbrake on whether on a hill, at the traffic lights, or stuck in traffic.

bazz26

The F10 auto has an electronic parking brake with auto hold so you don't need to keep your foot on the brake pedal once the car stops. And with the auto box you don't need to put the car in Neutral, leave it in Drive with the auto hold on and the parking brake will engage and the car will not move until you press the accelerator again. There is also a Park button on the top of the auto gear shifter if you prefer not to leave it in Drive or are getting out of the car.

Voodoomelon

I for one have the exact same issue myself with my 740Li. I ordered new front discs and pads from the BMW dealer, fitted them myself at the end of November. Come March or thereabouts, or 2000km later, my steering wheel is vibrating on braking.

Stuck her up in the ramp, checked out everything on the front end and everything is tight. But spin the front wheels and you can feel both of the wheels catching and then not catching as they rotate. The right side is worse than the other.

This is with 90-100% town driving, albeit not stop/start, rarely even getting over 80kph in that time. And with auto-hold (not that I believe that info about sitting on the brakes at lights).

BMW will only warrant them if I take a day off, drive to a BMW dealer and they perform a runout test. But their caveat is if you have refurbed wheels they won't cover it, as any excess paint or powder coat on the backside of the wheel inhibits heat transfer from the disc. I iterated I wasn't a Formula 1 driver but the don't seem to believe me.

Horsesh1t of the highest order.

RobAMerc

as an update the discs were replaced with Brembo's ("under warranty") and low and behold the same issue has arisen again.

I'm sick of it at this stage and am just putting up with it.

I still think the mechanic himself is to blame. He never replaced the pad sensors, this alone tells me the quality of this guys work

Voodoomelon

In fairness if your car is warping discs across different brands, then it's not the discs fault. I put mine down to potentially bad quality discs, but something is amiss with yours, be it pads, calipers, hubs, bearings, wheels etc.

millington

Voodoomelon wrote: »

In fairness if your car is warping discs across different brands, then it's not the discs fault. I put mine down to potentially bad quality discs, but something is amiss with yours, be it pads, calipers, hubs, bearings, wheels etc.

Agreed.

I have had warped discs on a few E60s & F10s. Mostly cheaper brands on E60s but F10s seem to do it across the board but over a far longer period than the OPs.

As far as I'm aware, Brembo are the OE manufacturer for the 2 piece F10 disc.

BavarianCare

The point has been missed.
Disks don't warp.
The temperature to warp disks is so far above what pads CoF can achieve.
It is 99% fitting technique (sh**e mechanic) or totally incorrect bed in.
If disks are bedded in incorrectly ONCE they will NOT recover to as new state.

PS: Brembo are not OEM for this application.

BavarianCare

Lord Nikon wrote: »

Is is more noticable on vehicles with auto boxes than with manual boxes? With an auto box, probably best not to keep foot on the brake after heavy braking. Best put the car in Neutral or Park with handbrake on whether on a hill, at the traffic lights, or stuck in traffic.

Makes no difference if:
1. Fitted correctly
And, EQUALLY AS IMPORTANT:
2. Bedded correctly

BavarianCare

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I for one have the exact same issue myself with my 740Li. I ordered new front discs and pads from the BMW dealer, fitted them myself at the end of November. Come March or thereabouts, or 2000km later, my steering wheel is vibrating on braking.

Stuck her up in the ramp, checked out everything on the front end and everything is tight. But spin the front wheels and you can feel both of the wheels catching and then not catching as they rotate. The right side is worse than the other.

This is with 90-100% town driving, albeit not stop/start, rarely even getting over 80kph in that time. And with auto-hold (not that I believe that info about sitting on the brakes at lights).

BMW will only warrant them if I take a day off, drive to a BMW dealer and they perform a runout test. But their caveat is if you have refurbed wheels they won't cover it, as any excess paint or powder coat on the backside of the wheel inhibits heat transfer from the disc. I iterated I wasn't a Formula 1 driver but the don't seem to believe me.

Horsesh1t of the highest order.

Ok, I'll assume you fitted correctly and prepped all surfaces and so on.
But I suspect that you did not bed in correctly.
Read the links in my previous post.
I reiterate, I have NEVER had problem with F10 from 520d to 535d to M5 if I fit and bed.

grogi

BMWcare wrote: »

Ok, I'll assume you fitted correctly and prepped all surfaces and so on.
But I suspect that you did not bed in correctly.
Read the links in my previous post.
I reiterate, I have NEVER had problem with F10 from 520d to 535d to M5 if I fit and bed.

You start to sound like an Alfista... "Brakes in F10 are problem free, but you have to do a dance around them before".

Weirdly enough same brake ignorants don't have half as many issues with different cars...

BavarianCare

grogi wrote: »

You start to sound like an Alfista... "Brakes in F10 are problem free, but you have to do a dance around them before".

Weirdly enough same brake ignorants don't have half as many issues with different cars...

I’m only trying to make the point. The F10 was the first common, in 520d guise anyway, that was a massive seller here, with a composite disk.
I’m guessing that a 2018 Lexus (basic model, like a 520d was in 2010) does not.

Quality parts
Quality mechanic
Bed correctly
No issues

(And, as an aside, I’m insulted by the Alfa reference!! Only thing worse would be PSA or Ren!!)

Tazio

Hey! We all follow different religions here so lets keep it peaceful...

Anyhow I bought my wife a bog standard diesel F10 few years back (she likes them not me ) and now with 65k miles clock no issues. Pads and fluid were done recently. The discs are ok.. but was told by mechanic the dics were floating type.? Was dubious about this as never paid the car much attention.. but this thread makes for interesting reading as imo our discs are worn (nice lip on them) and should be replaced soon.

Sounds like genuine parts here so may be way to go along with strict workshop procedure (I've done dozens of discs on my own non BMW cars so dont understand complexities here) .. there are listing on various internet sites for 120 euro dics which seem cheap enough.. how much typically for real parts? I must give the local dealer a buzz for quote.. will report back..

Been a grand car to date. Zero issues. Which being an Italian car lover is a big issue.. as the F10 give me nothing to whinge about and fix! I would buy one again.. but petrol next time..

BavarianCare

Tazio wrote: »

Hey! We all follow different religions here so lets keep it peaceful...

Anyhow I bought my wife a bog standard diesel F10 few years back (she likes them not me ) and now with 65k miles clock no issues. Pads and fluid were done recently. The discs are ok.. but was told by mechanic the dics were floating type.? Was dubious about this as never paid the car much attention.. but this thread makes for interesting reading as imo our discs are worn (nice lip on them) and should be replaced soon.

Sounds like genuine parts here so may be way to go along with strict workshop procedure (I've done dozens of discs on my own non BMW cars so dont understand complexities here) .. there are listing on various internet sites for 120 euro dics which seem cheap enough.. how much typically for real parts? I must give the local dealer a buzz for quote.. will report back..

Been a grand car to date. Zero issues. Which being an Italian car lover is a big issue.. as the F10 give me nothing to whinge about and fix! I would buy one again.. but petrol next time..

They are composite/two piece/floating.
They’re not too bad price wise from a dealer. €120+ each roughly I think.

BavarianCare

Here you can see:

1. Official BMW Disk which is composite and where you can (just about) see the pins holding both parts together

2. An aftermarket composite disk that shows the pins more clearly

3. Spec of above aftermarket disk

4. An aftermarket disk which does not have the pins so is actually a one piece, non-composite disk

5. Spec of above aftermarket disk.

======

I'm not recommending any brand or knocking down any brand here. These brands are used only for illustration. It's relevant that the single piece disk cross references to the BMW composite disk part number though.

Take note of three differences in the aftermarket disks:
1. Two-Piece
2. Coated
3. High Carbon

There is a train of thought in some areas of the trade that a single piece disk is the way to go because you can 'get away' with not preparing the hub flange thoroughly = faster turnaround.
I don't agree with this at all but... It happens...

======

Last year the 429 disk was €171.19 +VAT each from a dealer here. Prices change regularly so it would be worth checking that price. The problem at moment is that dealers don't have much, if any, stock. There are supply problems.

BavarianCare

This is an official BMW video about 'counterfeit' parts...

But, BMW don't make brake pads...
Watch the video and look at screenshot I've uploaded and tell me why you shouldn't use GENUINE Textar for THAT PARTICULAR application...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOyjyY3FBLU

BMW Don't Make Pads.jpg

BavarianCare

And again, about Oil Filters...
BMW don't make them either.
In this particular example it is Mann + Hummell
I'd use GENUINE Mann...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U53yl4zQFV0

Oil Filter.jpg