Dublin 1860's - car owner

maureen66

I'm a newcomer to this site. Living in France I can only do online research.
Is anyone able to help me concerning my gt-gt-grandfather's "occupation" as "car owner" (Michael/Michal Clarke) in Dublin on the baptism record of his youngest son (no occupation noted before then)?
I had at first thought he must have been fairly wealthy to have been recorded as such, until I realised it was in 1869. The irish-genealogy website helped me in saying it would be horse and car/hackney carriage( Jarvis/taxi driver).I can only find the Thom's street index for 1862, and the Pettigrew+Oulston directory doesn't go that far. He lived in Clarence Street and Summer Hill from around 1855-1870 at least. Could he have kept horses there too? Was that sort of occupation independent or would he have worked for an employer?  Most of my ancestors were general labourers, so no family businesses. I was hoping to find a trade address or adverts for horse and car transport in Dublin. I have been unable to find relevant online newspapers of the period for possible adverts or other information.
I would be most grateful if anyone can answer any of my queries.

spurious

He certainly could have kept horses in the Summerhill area. There were stables in Dublin city centre right up til the 1980s. My own ancestors were also 'car owners' (though not in Dublin) and eventually graduated to what we call cars in the 1930s or so.

pinkypinky

Hi Maureen - have you checked FindmyPast's collection of trade directories or just Thoms from 1862?

tabbey

maureen66 wrote: »

Was that sort of occupation independent or would he have worked for an employer? 

As a car owner, he would at least have been self-employed, and possibly may have been a employer. Most car owners would have only had one car, and looked after the horse with the help of the family.

shanew

Thom's 1869 - shows a Michael Clarke green grocer at 2 Summer Hill Lower, which might fit with that birth of Andrew. One of my direct ancestors was also a Dublin city car-man/car-owner, and his father was also a grocer. They were based on Ballybough Road and Foster Street around the same time.

maureen66

Thank you all for your replies and interesting information.
I'm having technical problems submitting my full reply (have retyped it 4 times.....). I've reported the issue and will reply properly once it's resoved.

maureen66

The problem seems to have been resolved, so am trying again.
In answer to pinkypinky: I only  discovered the Trades category on FindmyPast yesterday, but as I'm not a paying member, can't access the information. Once I get enough items to check, I could take out a short term subscription.  The 1862 Thom's street directory I found online (maybe via National Library of Ireland?).
I was interested to learn of Michael Clarke, greengrocer. All I know of this generation is what I have found from my amateur searching. There was a history of horses along that line : his son, Andrew (1869-1907)was a carter/drayman (from a birth record + 1901 Census) and his son (also Andrew, my grandfather 1896-1959) was in the Cavalry - Hussars- in WW1 and after that worked as a groom and trained the Officers' polo horses at Curragh until he moved to Barrow when jobs were hard to find in Dublin.
I've hit a brick wall with Michael Clarke. I can't find a marriage record, though the childrens' mother is on their baptism records as Margaret/Margarita Delmor/variants. (not sure if Margarita was her real name or the Latinised - RC- version). I found a few possible birth dates for her, but nothing conclusive - either too young for her first child or nearing the limit for the youngest.   My main sources have been : irishgenealogy.ie and ancestry.co.uk. (I have suspended my membership there until I need to search again, but my trees are still online)
Should I start a new thread asking for help/advice on where else to search, or can anyone help here?  I can give more details on the forum or in a PM.

pinkypinky

You can keep going on this thread here. For Dublin ancestors, you are searching in the right places.

FMP does a free trial if you've never used them before. You have to give card details but you can cancel during this free period at no cost.
I do think it would be worth searching their collection as they include prison records and petty session court records. Someone who operated a small business may have ended up involved with the law at some stage.

She was almost certainly Margaret rather than the Latin form. The only name where this is really a conundrum is Mary vs Maria,which were both used.

It's also worth selected use of the Glasnevin cemetery records, which are pay per view.

spurious

Her death is 19th May 1896, or what could be her. Carman's widow, Summerhill.

shanew

on the birth of the eldest child to the couple included in civil records Mary Ellen 1865 (IrishGenealogy) - Michael's occupation is shown as Shop Keeper, address 2 Lower Summer Hill

shanew

same listing in 1868 for Michael at 2 Lwr. Summer Hill but not at that address in any of the earlier street listings 1865,1863 or 1858 and the next edition I have 1872 shows a John Wilkinson at no. 2.

maureen66

Thank you for the links and details which I'll examine. 
Where did you find the possible record for Mgt Clarke's death (19 May 1896, car man's widow), Spurious?
On the Glasnevin site  I found "1896 age 56", which would give a birth around 1840.
I had previously found "10 Feb 1881, age 50"(so b. around 1831) which would correspond with a birth record found for Mgt Delmor 15 July 1830 of John and Mary(Judge) in Killucan, Meath. No proof she's the same one, though.
The eldest child (Thomas) for whom I'm sure, was born 1856 giving the mother as aged 16 if born 1840....  
 I found a Henry (noted as born 1852 of Michael Clarke and Mgt Dehner) who married  Helena Dignum in 1877 of 12 Summer Hill. The mother can't have been born in 1840 as she would only have been 12....  I would need to find a marriage record to get at least the fathers' names to help find other dates.
As for Michael Clarke  I found one on the Glasnevin site "died 1895 aged 68, married".    I had previously found elsewhere "Dublin workhouse: 19 Mar 1895, widower, age 72, car owner of Georges Lane" which would give a possible birth date of 1823. I know ages and marital status are not always reliable, but I'm going round in circles....

spurious

I just searched on irishgenealogy.ie
It may not be her of course, Clarke is a common name and carman would have been quite a popular occupation.
I wouldn't pay a huge amount of heed to the age on a death cert.. It was usually someone's best guess.

tac foley

'Car' as in 'jaunting car', surely. Not 'motor car'?

Quote - Ireland’s first motor car comes home to Malahide. Posted in News By Padraic Deane On May 3, 2013

The North Dublin village of Malahide is set to go back over 100 years in time when, later this month, the first petrol-driven car ever to run on Irish roads returns to the Grand Hotel which, at the time it was imported into Ireland, was the residence of its owner, medical practitioner Dr. John Colohan.

This unique car, an 1898 Benz Velo Comfortable, will be the centerpiece in an exhibition of classic and vintage cars that takes place in the grounds of the hotel on Sunday, May 19th next.

tac

Peregrinus

tac foley wrote: »

'Car' as in 'jaunting car', surely. Not 'motor car'?

Well, not necessarily a jaunting car. But a horse-drawn car, certainly. In Dublin it's much more likely to have been a larger vehicle, suitable for carrying either goods or a number of passengers or a combination of both.

In the 1860s the primary meaning of "car" was a horse-drawn vehicle that could carry people or things. "Car" was a broad term that covered carriages, carts, wagons, etc. There were other meanings, but they would have been specified - railway car, tram car, balloon car, cable car.

"Car" in the sense of motor car doesn't appear until the 1890s, for obvious reasons.

pinkypinky

I've deleted the unhelpful post by the banned user and the follow-ups - just to avoid future confusion.

maureen66

I think my questions have been answered, and helpful advice given for further research. Thank you all.
As I won't be able to log on for some time, advance apologies if I don't answer rapidly.

maureen66

Genealogy details : I realise I've been researching the wrong Clarke family (Michael and Margaret [Delmor]). It appears their son, Andrew died aged 30, single.

If there's anyone looking into this family, I can let you have what information I have compiled.