(What happens if there are) Problems with plane over the Atlantic

Wanderer2010

Lets just say your plane encounters a problem over the Atlantic, what exactly are your options? Isnt it realistic to say that the majority of planes travelling from the States to Europe are just incredibly lucky in that they haven't needed to perform an emergency landing because there is simply nowhere to land? I know you have Iceland but that's still a very long way away if your engine blows or you have some critical error? What I'm asking is, if you do encounter an issue or severe turbulence or something which can bring the plane down over the middle of the Atlantic, are you pretty much dead?

Plus, why do some routes go directly over the ocean and others tend to hug Iceland and Greenland on the way over?

Needles73

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Lets just say your plane encounters a problem over the Atlantic, what exactly are your options? Isnt it realistic to say that the majority of planes travelling from the States to Europe are just incredibly lucky in that they haven't needed to perform an emergency landing because there is simply nowhere to land? I know you have Iceland but that's still a very long way away if your engine blows or you have some critical error? What I'm asking is, if you do encounter an issue or severe turbulence or something which can bring the plane down over the middle of the Atlantic, are you pretty much dead?

Plus, why do some routes go directly over the ocean and others tend to hug Iceland and Greenland on the way over?

Change thread title, to "hypothetical" question. Jesus I thought people were in trouble !!

ScouseMouse

I am not a pilot but have an interest. Please go easy on me if I am full of it.
All planes have to be ETOPS rated. This is the maximum distance they can fly from an airport that can accept them in an emergency. Depending on the plane, you can go direct or a roundabout route. Shannon, Keflavik and some airports in Newfoundland (gander?) are airports that come to mind.

Wanderer2010

Needles73 wrote: »

Change thread title, to "hypothetical" question. Jesus I thought people were in trouble !!

Fair point! Mods, can you change title to "What would happen if you encountered..."

Shpudnik

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Lets just say your plane encounters a problem over the Atlantic, what exactly are your options? Isnt it realistic to say that the majority of planes travelling from the States to Europe are just incredibly lucky in that they haven't needed to perform an emergency landing because there is simply nowhere to land? I know you have Iceland but that's still a very long way away if your engine blows or you have some critical error? What I'm asking is, if you do encounter an issue or severe turbulence or something which can bring the plane down over the middle of the Atlantic, are you pretty much dead?

Plus, why do some routes go directly over the ocean and others tend to hug Iceland and Greenland on the way over?

I believe that's to do with the jetstrean.

RocketRaccoon

ScouseMouse wrote: »

I am not a pilot but have an interest. Please go easy on me if I am full of it.
All planes have to be ETOPS rated. This is the maximum distance they can fly from an airport that can accept them in an emergency. Depending on the plane, you can go direct or a roundabout route. Shannon, Keflavik and some airports in Newfoundland (gander?) are airports that come to mind.

This is why there are no crashes into the Atlantic. Air France a few years ago is the only one I can remember.

Shpudnik

Needles73 wrote: »

Change thread title, to "hypothetical" question. Jesus I thought people were in trouble !!

I was expecting it to be Faceman.

Growler!!!

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Lets just say your plane encounters a problem over the Atlantic, what exactly are your options? Isnt it realistic to say that the majority of planes travelling from the States to Europe are just incredibly lucky in that they haven't needed to perform an emergency landing because there is simply nowhere to land? I know you have Iceland but that's still a very long way away if your engine blows or you have some critical error? What I'm asking is, if you do encounter an issue or severe turbulence or something which can bring the plane down over the middle of the Atlantic, are you pretty much dead?

Plus, why do some routes go directly over the ocean and others tend to hug Iceland and Greenland on the way over?

I think a read of ETOPS capabilities on wiki will put your mind to rest. We can fly up to 207 minutes from a suitable airfield. The airplane doesn't know it's over the water!

faoiarvok

ETOPS stands for Extended range Twin engine Operations.

If one engine decides to quit, the plane will happily fly on the other one for long enough to get to a suitable diversion airport. Every system has at least one independent backup which can keep supporting all critical functions.

ScouseMouse

faoiarvok wrote: »

ETOPS stands for Extended range Twin engine Operations.

If one engine decides to quit, the plane will happily fly on the other one for long enough to get to a suitable diversion airport. Every system has at least one independent backup which can keep supporting all critical functions.

Or the wise ass explaination.

Engines Turn Or Passengers Swim

L1011

The island-hugging route is for aircraft without longer ETOPS time - the 'twin' bit is removed from the official title now as there are very few non-twin planes and any new 3+ engine aircraft will also have to be qualified. The aircraft, the airframe and the airline all need to be ETOPS certified to operate the longer times - a new airline buying 777s cannot operate them at ETOPS330 immediately.

The time is the time to an alternate airport when operating at engine out speeds, which are lower than the norm; so even on a flight where you may be 90 minutes normal flight time from the alternate at worst it could need ETOPS120.

There have been very few notable cases of issues on long over-water stretches that would have been easier to deal with over ground - AF447 was going to hit land if there was land under it really. The Air Transat glider wouldn't have been so hairy, that's about it.

I changed the title anyway!

ED E

Was reading about LOT16 the other day, they flew all the way from NY to WAW(Warsaw) with one of their hydraulics systems completely out. Puts into perspective how redundant systems work so well.

L1011

ED E wrote: »

Was reading about LOT16 the other day, they flew all the way from NY to WAW(Warsaw) with one of their hydraulics systems completely out. Puts into perspective how redundant systems work so well.

Had a popped breaker been noticed (believe it wasn't on the checklists at all) they could have still dropped the landing gear and that 767 would probably now be an Amazon Prime Air freighter!

duskyjoe

L1011 wrote: »

Had a popped breaker been noticed (believe it wasn't on the checklists at all) they could have still dropped the landing gear and that 767 would probably now be an Amazon Prime Air freighter!

An incredible cockup imo.......

Back on thread......a very basic site but gives good gen for those that want to learn more about Atlantic airspace , the workings, who runs the show and some contingency procedures.

http://occ.ivao.aero/index.php?site=pilots


Shanwick and Gander Oceanic airspace is a well oiled machine, both agencies run a tight ship re management of their through traffic etc.

Negative_G

There are well defined procedures for flights operating in oceanic airspace. Almost every eventuality is covered by contingency procedures.

ETP's or equal time points are very important for contingency planning. If the aircraft is past the ETP point it will continue to its destination. If it is before it, it will return toward the origin or to an en route alternate. Generally there are 3 ETP points to be plotted, OEI (One engine inop), depressurisation or a medical emergency.

If you're really interested in learning some more, almost everything is covered in ICAO Doc 4444 and NAT Doc 007.

Cloudio9

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Plus, why do some routes go directly over the ocean and others tend to hug Iceland and Greenland on the way over?

West coast routes will take a more northerly route as its shorter

duskyjoe

Re ETPs- west coast ops will have 3, the rest 2.

ED E

Do we know how many diversions SNN get per anum? I remember it being mentioned that 3 in a day wasnt unheard of.

Brennus335

The biggest factor affecting ETOPs limits is often the ratings of the Cargo Fire Suppression System.

plodder

If you look at a great circle map of the direct route between Dublin and New York say, you're never all that far from land anyway, compared to routes over the South Atlantic, or Pacific oceans at least.

Tenger

ED E wrote: »

Do we know how many diversions SNN get per anum? I remember it being mentioned that 3 in a day wasnt unheard of.

3 in a day sounds very high. Perhaps that should have read "3 in a week isn't unheard of"?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Irishweather

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

Lets just say your plane encounters a problem over the Atlantic, what exactly are your options? Isnt it realistic to say that the majority of planes travelling from the States to Europe are just incredibly lucky in that they haven't needed to perform an emergency landing because there is simply nowhere to land? I know you have Iceland but that's still a very long way away if your engine blows or you have some critical error? What I'm asking is, if you do encounter an issue or severe turbulence or something which can bring the plane down over the middle of the Atlantic, are you pretty much dead?

Plus, why do some routes go directly over the ocean and others tend to hug Iceland and Greenland on the way over?

Planes from Ireland to North America are usually over the Atlantic for four hours at the most, as the distance from coast to coast is about 1,800 miles.2 hours is the longest flying time, that a plane would be from land, so there isn't any point where things are at dire straits, so to speak.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=Dub-bos&MS=wls&DU=mi&E=120

This map shows the points in the North Atlantic which are more than 2 hours from the nearest diversion airport.

The Pacific Ocean is a different kettle of fish:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=LAX-AKL&MS=wls&DU=mi&E=180

The Grey areas represent points which are more than 3 hours from diversion airports.

And this route which flies through zones which are more than 4 hours from diversion airports:

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=EZE-AKL&MS=wls&DU=mi&E=240

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.