Complete novice weighing up the pros and cons..

jebus28

Hi guys,

I'm looking for a new car and had been thinking about electric for quite some time but unsure if it would suit my situation. If these are annoying or repetitive questions then mods please delete the thread, again I basically know nothing about electric cars but I'm interested to know what others think.

I'm living in Dublin but travel to Wexford most weekends and Donegal the odd time too to visit family and with work I spend a lot of time on the motorway. I know there's charging points along the way, but would it be a lot of hardship? I did 15k miles last year and expect that to be more this year.

I share a house with the owner and I'm unsure if there's any installation involved that would be an annoyance to a landlord, or electricity bills etc?

And lastly insurance, I'm already paying a whopping insurance fee for a 1.4 petrol. How do insurance companies generally feel about electric cars? If at all there is a difference.

So ye reckon it would be worth looking into?

Thanks for reading.

KCross

Do you have a budget in mind?

Could you give exact distance for your daily work commute and what kind of roads they are (motorway etc) and also give the exact distance for your Dublin/wexford and dublin/donegal trips and then we can tell you if the cars can make it without stopping or not.

Also, any chance your employer would give you a work charge point?

Realistically you would probably need to buy one of the newer models (30kWh Leaf or Ioniq). The 30kWh Leaf only came out in 161 and the Ioniq in late 162 but mainly 171.

The landlord shouldn't have an issue with the install, obviously if you are paying for all the work, and you put a meter on it so you can separate out the amount of electricity you use for the car, which is simple to do.

Insurance should be cheaper but it varies naturally for everyone. I paid €350 with Zurich this year. Get an online quote from Zurich and that will definitely answer that for you.

oppenheimer1

Whatever about having suitable usage patterns for an EV, I would be extremely reluctant to install a home charge point in a standard rental let alone a living with an owner occupier where you can be out on your ear with 24hrs notice. A landlord will know you are locked in and will be able to take advantage of that fact with increased rent etc.

If you don't go brand new the charge point install is the guts of €1k - a good chunk of which is a sunk labour cost which you can't take with you when you move.

Pkiernan

There's no way you're a suitable candidate for an all electric car at this point.
Stopping to charge will get real old after the novelty wears off.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Whatever about having suitable usage patterns for an EV, I would be extremely reluctant to install a home charge point in a standard rental let alone a living with an owner occupier where you can be out on your ear with 24hrs notice. A landlord will know you are locked in and will be able to take advantage of that fact with increased rent etc.

If you don't go brand new the charge point install is the guts of €1k - a good chunk of which is a sunk labour cost which you can't take with you when you move.

More like €600 with €100-200 in labour. If the savings in having the car are there in the first place, €200 left behind in labour will be irrelevant.

However, it will require a detailed discussion with the landlord. For example, can he even take the charge point with him if he leaves. As a landlord I would be reluctant to have someone remove it and leave wires hanging and holes drilled in my external wall. A compromise will be required here with the landlord.

Pkiernan wrote: »

There's no way you're a suitable candidate for an all electric car at this point.
Stopping to charge will get real old after the novelty wears off.

Why is it no way suitable? Because he possibly requires one charge at the weekend?

I think we need more answers from him first to say it is no way suitable. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

Gumbo

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Whatever about having suitable usage patterns for an EV, I would be extremely reluctant to install a home charge point in a standard rental let alone a living with an owner occupier where you can be out on your ear with 24hrs notice. A landlord will know you are locked in and will be able to take advantage of that fact with increased rent etc.

If you don't go brand new the charge point install is the guts of €1k - a good chunk of which is a sunk labour cost which you can't take with you when you move.

You can buy charge points online for €400. I personally picked up a 32A one for €200 (same one ESB install).

Fitting can be done €200-€300 or less depending if you know or have any mates as sparks (RECI).

And you can disconnect the charger when leaving and replace with an external socket or junction box and you are only at a loss of the 6mm sq wire and fitting.

Gumbo

Pkiernan wrote: »

There's no way you're a suitable candidate for an all electric car at this point.
Stopping to charge will get real old after the novelty wears off.

I Would not like to be dependent on charging during the day to continue my work. If the car can't suit your daily needs from an overnight charge, I agree that stopping every day will eventually get tired.

If you have the home charge then it's simples.

*i have no home charge fitted yet so there are exceptions to the above. My daily needs are met with circadian 50% charge and I have work place chargers that I too up daily on out of convienance rather that need.

mel.b

As KCross mentioned, you need to post/examine your daily mileage very closely. I use my car for work as well and went back through my last 6months, looking at every day I used the car for work, what the longest trip was and the location of chargers on the way. From doing this, I found out that I needed the 30kwh version of the leaf. If you are prepared to buy new, the Ioniq will give you more range again and the new leaf details will be available in Sept which will have more range than the the existing one.

Getting a home point installed while in a house share is something I would be reluctant to do, so then you need to look at the availability of public chargers and is there one nearby that you could use? To me this would be a bigger issue that the distances you are doing, especially as you are in Dublin where charger availability an be tight due to the number of cars wanting to access them. If you did get a home point installed, your landlord would want to change over to night saver rate to avail of cheaper electricity at night (and this means they could run the dishwasher etc on timers at night to also use the cheaper rate). However it may end up a little more expensive overall. It shouldn't be €1000 to get a home point installed, but allow at least €700-800 and you should have change left over.

With regards to insurance, there was actually little difference in mine, the EV was slightly cheaper. With the hassle to change over mid -policy though it has hardly been worth it, except I went with Zurich who have specialist EV insurance and also by changing over I have gone from a very early Jan renewal time to a July renewal which is worth it alone to me!

oppenheimer1

kceire wrote: »

You can buy charge points online for €400. I personally picked up a 32A one for €200 (same one ESB install).

Fitting can be done €200-€300 or less depending if you know or have any mates as sparks (RECI).

And you can disconnect the charger when leaving and replace with an external socket or junction box and you are only at a loss of the 6mm sq wire and fitting.

If I were a live-in landlord there is no way I would permit it (and all the associated additional hassle, bills, organising parking) and if I were a licensee (with no security) would I bother.

Gumbo

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If I were a live-in landlord there is no way I would permit it (and all the associated additional hassle, bills, organising parking) and if I were a licensee (with no security) would I bother.

I'd be hesitant as a landlord too if I didn't know the details.
But I was simply highlighting that it can be easily done and easily altered and removed without mess later.

I say this as a landlord but obviously I understand the set up better than most landlords out there.

pwurple

I am a landlord, and have allowed a tenant install a charge point. It was no cost to me, and I look at it as a free asset on the house tbh. Under our arrangement, I get to keep it if they leave. (Long term tenant... ~4 years).

I am also part of the management company for an apartment block, and we installed a charge point in the carpark.

Some landlords may object, but there's no harm in asking. Just have all your information first. What it looks like , what it's for, how much it will cost them, if anything. Etc.

Bigus

An Ioniq would just about do your requirements , but I'd wait for the higher capacity battery, rumoured for 2018 , a leaf wouldn't suit long runs that are variable.

unkel

I guess it will mostly depend on your landlord. If your relationship is good, you are a long term renter and you agree that the charge point will be left in place should you leave (so it will be property of the landlord), I guess it is worth installing it. If you buy a new EV, you get the charge point for free, so you don't have much to lose there

oppenheimer1

unkel wrote: »

I guess it will mostly depend on your landlord. If your relationship is good, you are a long term renter and you agree that the charge point will be left in place should you leave (so it will be property of the landlord), I guess it is worth installing it. If you buy a new EV, you get the charge point for free, so you don't have much to lose there

There is no way I'd be leaving the EVSE there if I'd paid for it. If I was in a long term rental and was considering it all I would offer is that the cables would be removed and correctly terminated upon leaving. However the OP isn't even a tenant with tenants rights, he's a licensee and can be shown the door overnight for no reason. Under those circumstances the idea of installing an EVSE in this rental is crazy.

If he gets the charge point for free from ecars and leaves it after him, he will have to buy another when he moves so it's hardly cost free.

Maybe a granny cable might do if there is an existing socket available, but gifting a €800-1000 install to a landlord is bonkers. He gets enough from you I'm sure.

unkel

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

There is no way I'd be leaving the EVSE there if I'd paid for it. If I was in a long term rental and was considering it all I would offer is that the cables would be removed and correctly terminated upon leaving.

If I were a landlord, I would not agree to those terms. I'd be like pwurple - who I feel is very reasonable from a landlord POV.

If there isn't a very cordial relation between OP and their landlord, I wouldn't install an EVSE and I most likely would not buy an EV

My own reason for buying an EV was just a perfect storm, I'll be honest to report that if any one of the following didn't happen, I'd probably still be driving an ICE. €5k subsidy, €5k VRT discount, €4k scrappage, guts of €1k free EVSE install and then I negotiated as best I could, leaving me with probably the cheapest Ioniq EV with metallic paint in the country.

oppenheimer1

unkel wrote: »

If I were a landlord, I would not agree to those terms. I'd be like pwurple - who I feel is very reasonable from a landlord POV.

If there isn't a very cordial relation between OP and their landlord, I wouldn't install an EVSE and I most likely would not buy an EV

Unfortunately most landlords wouldn't agree to any terms because they want the least amount of hassle and facilitating and EVSE install would be seen as hassle (even if the tenant did all the legwork). The default answer is always no.

I still think is pretty unfair to make the tenant leave the EVSE behind that they paid for. Removal of external cables and correct termination of cables in the attic should be sufficient. It should be enough for the enlightened landlord anyway.

reboot

Pkirnan, is sadly correct, your a man ahead of his time, unless your prepared to put up with the lack of infrastructure, wait another year. At present we are suffering from New technology, same old people.

Orebro

There's always the option of getting clearance to install an external 32a socket. All you'd be doing then is mounting your chargepoint and plugging straight in. Simple to take your chargepoint away with you then and not leave a mess behind, just the external socket.

DesperateDan

Seriously considering an EV in the next 6 months but the lack of fast chargers worries me for long trips. Dublin-Wexford and Dublin-Donegal does not sound fun right now.

If I want to make the odd trip to Dublin I have to fast charge on the way back (220km round trip from outside Longford), right now if the Enfield Applegreen charger is broken I am going to require a towing home

Is this a problem for a lot of EV owners? Maybe the fast chargers never go down. I am surprised there isn't one in Mullingar, the map looks like there's quite a few holes on it alright.

mel.b

I have a 240km one way trip to dublin and it doesn't bother me to stop for charging once each way (plus destination charging when i arrive). You say 'odd trip' - really you need to think about how often it actually is. If a EV meets your daily requirements 90%+ of the time then its worth it to in terms if savings etc for the odd, slightly slower trip to Dublin (or consider it a relaxed cofee break)

DesperateDan

Yeah I think it would for 90% of my requirements for sure. It's the issue of being 100% reliant on a single fast charger for those small use cases that I couldn't help thinking about. If that FC went haywire or something I guess it's the same as getting a flat tyre really. In either case the chances are minuscule I'm sure, just seems like a much more tangible threat though for some reason!

mel.b

Yeah, i think we tend to over exaggerate the potential difficulties. I've had an ICE car break down completely twice that needed towing (different cars!), and ran out petrol once. Its really very much the same - you call your breakdown company for a tow. At least with an EV ince they tow you to the next charge point you'll be one your way in 30min and no big repair bill!

jebus28

Hi guys thanks a mill for all the replies and great information.

For those who asked it's 130km to my home in Wexford and roughly 210km to Donegal. My work day would consist of maybe 50km a day, basically up the M1 to work and back home.

With regards to budget I have no idea, I'm guessing 10k mark is unrealistic? Second hand maybe? Is it true there's a grants scheme?

I'm very friendly with my landlord and would be confident that they'd have no issue with any installations if there wasn't much fuss involved. I'm unsure about bills though and of this would create a problem between 3 people splitting a bill?

I would really like to do this, but maybe it's better to wait for a more permanent place of my own and a bigger budget?

The Donegal trip would be once every 3 months so wouldn't be much of an inconvenience to stop.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

goz83

DesperateDan wrote: »

Seriously considering an EV in the next 6 months but the lack of fast chargers worries me for long trips. Dublin-Wexford and Dublin-Donegal does not sound fun right now.

If I want to make the odd trip to Dublin I have to fast charge on the way back (220km round trip from outside Longford), right now if the Enfield Applegreen charger is broken I am going to require a towing home

Is this a problem for a lot of EV owners? Maybe the fast chargers never go down. I am surprised there isn't one in Mullingar, the map looks like there's quite a few holes on it alright.

DesperateDan wrote: »

Yeah I think it would for 90% of my requirements for sure. It's the issue of being 100% reliant on a single fast charger for those small use cases that I couldn't help thinking about. If that FC went haywire or something I guess it's the same as getting a flat tyre really. In either case the chances are minuscule I'm sure, just seems like a much more tangible threat though for some reason!

Wait for the new Leaf, or upgraded Ioniq. Even the current Ioniq would serve your needs and there are a number of Fast Chargers you could use along the way. A 30kWh Leaf would be something to coonsider, as you would be stopping once anyway and there are good deals to be had on those.

jebus28 wrote: »

Hi guys thanks a mill for all the replies and great information.

For those who asked it's 130km to my home in Wexford and roughly 210km to Donegal. My work day would consist of maybe 50km a day, basically up the M1 to work and back home.

With regards to budget I have no idea, I'm guessing 10k mark is unrealistic? Second hand maybe? Is it true there's a grants scheme?

I'm very friendly with my landlord and would be confident that they'd have no issue with any installations if there wasn't much fuss involved. I'm unsure about bills though and of this would create a problem between 3 people splitting a bill?

I would really like to do this, but maybe it's better to wait for a more permanent place of my own and a bigger budget?

The Donegal trip would be once every 3 months so wouldn't be much of an inconvenience to stop.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

Your budget is not unrealistic if you're willing to be realistic with it. You're looking at a 24kWh Leaf and you could pick up a 2014 Acenta (mid spec) for that sort of money. It has the better battery than previous models and you would still likely have all 12 power bars. Battery health would be around 90%.

You will get 100klm of range if you mind your speed on the motorway, but it will mean more stops for longer trips, as 130klm is really pushing the range of a 24 Leaf and I would not recommend that. A quick 10 minute stop off will give you the extra range, but I wouldn't fancy doing it daily, or even weekly tbh.

With regards a Charge Point (EVSE). You can get a good CP plus installation for half the money some EV haters claim. If your relationship with LL is good, then there is no reason not to let that be an obstacle. A fair agreement would be that a normal plug point, or junction be installed once the EVSE is removed, or the option to buy the EVSE from you.

Have a meter installed. It will tell you how many units the car has used. Night rate would be ideal if both you and your LL run stuff like dishwasher, washing machine, dryer etc after midnight.....most of these have 3 hour delay timers since about a decade ago. Also showering before 8am saves a fortune (if you use an electric shower. Heating the immersion at night is cheaper...you see where I am going? Most of my household energy is consumed at night and we don't even charge the cars most nights.

Cocolola

Orebro wrote: »

There's always the option of getting clearance to install an external 32a socket. All you'd be doing then is mounting your chargepoint and plugging straight in. Simple to take your chargepoint away with you then and not leave a mess behind, just the external socket.

Daft question probably, but is it just a 'normal' 3-pin external socket that would be installed? Do the bog-standard EVSEs that the ESB install come with plugs? We're renting too and this sounds like a good option to present the landlady, in case she'd prefer it.

goz83 wrote: »

A fair agreement would be that a normal plug point, or junction be installed once the EVSE is removed...

This was what we've also been considering doing but weren't sure what you would do to fill the gap, as it were, when you remove the EVSE. Thanks.

I'm going to email the estate agents with all the info I can gather for the landlady (she already agreed but I want to be sure she knows exactly what's involved) - would anyone happen to have any pictures of what the EVSEs that the ESB give you look like when installed?

KCross

jebus28 wrote: »

I'm very friendly with my landlord and would be confident that they'd have no issue with any installations if there wasn't much fuss involved. I'm unsure about bills though and of this would create a problem between 3 people splitting a bill?

You will have to have a separate meter on the charge point so you can separate the car out of the bill as it will be a significant contributor to the bill.

You can buy a charge point with a meter built in or add it later.

Cocolola wrote: »

Daft question probably, but is it just a 'normal' 3-pin external socket that would be installed? Do the bog-standard EVSEs that the ESB install come with plugs? We're renting too and this sounds like a good option to present the landlady, in case she'd prefer it.

No, its not a normal socket.
Here is an example of a Rolec model.
https://evonestop.co.uk/collections/domestic-charging-points/products/wallpod-ev-homecharge-type-2-tethered-cable-5m-1

The free one you get if you buy a new EV is a different shape but has the same socket.

Cocolola wrote: »

This was what we've also been considering doing but weren't sure what you would do to fill the gap, as it were, when you remove the EVSE. Thanks.

I'm going to email the estate agents with all the info I can gather for the landlady (she already agreed but I want to be sure she knows exactly what's involved) - would anyone happen to have any pictures of what the EVSEs that the ESB give you look like when installed?

The issue with removing them when you leave and replacing with a socket is that an external socket isn't the same size so you will leave holes in the wall. Depending on the wall that will require filling/painting. I wouldnt be happy if my tenant left holes in my external wall.

goz83

KCross wrote: »

The issue with removing them when you leave and replacing with a socket is that an external socket isn't the same size so you will leave holes in the wall. Depending on the wall that will require filling/painting. I wouldnt be happy if my tenant left holes in my external wall.

You could always fix the evse to the wall using only the top fixing points and then use plenty of 3M double sided (suitable for keeping steady on most walls) to secure the evse from moving. When removing the evse, the same holes could be used for the promised external socket and the 3M is just pulled and peeled away.

There are solutions. I know I wouldn't mind if I was a LL, as long as the tenant was going to at least leave a suitable lockable external socket when moving out. Ideal to plug in the electric lawn mower, or the hoover for the car.

oppenheimer1

OP, something else which may add to the complexity (and cost) of the charge point install is that you may also require a priority switch.

You will need one of these if you go for a 32a installation and an electric shower is already in the house. It is to ensure that the two do not run at the same time as the switch will cut off the charger when the shower is turned on.

Cocolola

KCross wrote: »

No, its not a normal socket.
Here is an example of a Rolec model.
https://evonestop.co.uk/collections/domestic-charging-points/products/wallpod-ev-homecharge-type-2-tethered-cable-5m-1

The free one you get if you buy a new EV is a different shape but has the same socket.

The issue with removing them when you leave and replacing with a socket is that an external socket isn't the same size so you will leave holes in the wall. Depending on the wall that will require filling/painting. I wouldnt be happy if my tenant left holes in my external wall.

Thanks KCross. Oh we definitely wouldn't be leaving any holes in the wall, that would just be plain disrespectful and not in any way acceptable. In my opinion, you should leave a property in an even better condition than when you moved in, where possible.

goz83 wrote: »

You could always fix the evse to the wall using only the top fixing points and then use plenty of 3M double sided (suitable for keeping steady on most walls) to secure the evse from moving. When removing the evse, the same holes could be used for the promised external socket and the 3M is just pulled and peeled away.

There are solutions. I know I wouldn't mind if I was a LL, as long as the tenant was going to at least leave a suitable lockable external socket when moving out. Ideal to plug in the electric lawn mower, or the hoover for the car.

Cheers goz. Another good idea to consider. Will present all these to the landlady.

Appreciate the help folks

Gumbo

Cocolola wrote: »

Thanks KCross. Oh we definitely wouldn't be leaving any holes in the wall, that would just be plain disrespectful and not in any way acceptable. In my opinion, you should leave a property in an even better condition than when you moved in, where possible.



Cheers goz. Another good idea to consider. Will present all these to the landlady.

Appreciate the help folks

Try get some photos of charge points installed.
Just so you can show her what they look like.

Most people think you get big charging structures installed for the cars, you'd be surprised by the reactions I get from people when I tell them you can charge from home and the charge point is smaller than your kids school bag!