Startup - very cheap (or free) legal advice

wr_writes

Hi,

I am in the process of setting up a startup company in the highly regulated gaming/gambling sector but, alas, I have a very small budget. I am reluctant to proceed any further until I get some level of validation that my proposed business model is within regulatory boundaries and if I would require any licences to operate. I have done some legal research and am struggling to figure out for myself as I come from a tech background and am a bit overwhelmed with the amount of conflicting information out there. I have contacted, and received quotes from legal firms who specialize in this area and all are upward of €3500 for an initial report... and that is for the Irish market only. I know that this is obviously the best route but I just don't have access to that amount of cash.

Does anyone have suggestions on alternative options?

Many thanks in advance.

pedroeibar1

We don't do legal advice here. Secondly, if you do not have 3.5k you have no hope of starting a business and less hope in a regulated sector.

wr_writes

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

We don't do legal advice here. Secondly, if you do not have 3.5k you have no hope of starting a business and less hope in a regulated sector.

Hi Pedro,

You may have mis-read my post. I am looking for suggestions where to get legal advice. I beg to differ on your second point!

if you want free legal advice then you are going into the realm of getting what you pay for. I can understand not wanting to pay 3.5K for a report, but that should motivate you all the more to sit down and study the existing market, the regulations and see what people are doing. I've been through licensing processes in various countries in the betting sector, its not that complicated just time consuming. Ireland in fact is very simple, and you should easily be able to to figure out what to do from the other people operating in the market. Unless you are introducing some totally new concept.

wr_writes

Deleted User wrote: »

if you want free legal advice then you are going into the realm of getting what you pay for. I can understand not wanting to pay 3.5K for a report, but that should motivate you all the more to sit down and study the existing market, the regulations and see what people are doing. I've been through licensing processes in various countries in the betting sector, its not that complicated just time consuming. Ireland in fact is very simple, and you should easily be able to to figure out what to do from the other people operating in the market. Unless you are introducing some totally new concept.

Thanks for that. Yes you do get what you pay for. That said, some time with someone with a legal background in this area is all I really need for now. A law grad who has studied this area maybe? There are some operators with similar offerings but there are subtle differences which I need clarification on - just to make sure I am not going down the wrong path.

Graham

Have a look at some of the startup 'meetup' type groups that you find floating around the startup circuit.

There's at least one of them that has the support (and attendance) of one of the large accountancy firms and one of the large legal firms. You usually get an opportunity during the sessions to grab a one-on-one to ask a few questions.

pedroeibar1

wr_writes wrote: »

Thanks for that. Yes you do get what you pay for. That said, some time with someone with a legal background in this area is all I really need for now. A law grad who has studied this area maybe? There are some operators with similar offerings but there are subtle differences which I need clarification on - just to make sure I am not going down the wrong path.

There is a huge difference between gaming and gambling yet you’ve lumped them together in your OP. Gambling is regulated and it is becoming increasingly so, with the Gambling Control Bill passed (but not yet enacted). Have you read that Bill? Have you spoken to the DOJ (they who control the licence process) to get their views on what you want to do? What research have you done yourself?

For proper legal advice €3.5k is not a huge amount for skilled, concise, accurate input if you are serious about the venture. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

wr_writes

Graham wrote: »

Have a look at some of the startup 'meetup' type groups that you find floating around the startup circuit.

There's at least one of them that has the support (and attendance) of one of the large accountancy firms and one of the large legal firms. You usually get an opportunity during the sessions to grab a one-on-one to ask a few questions.

Hi Graham,

Thanks for that. There is a legal meetup in Dublin for startups and I am going to attend the next one (Legalworkshopsdublin on meetup.com). I might have to wait until the Autumn though.

wr_writes

wr_writes wrote: »

Thanks for that. Yes you do get what you pay for. That said, some time with someone with a legal background in this area is all I really need for now. A law grad who has studied this area maybe? There are some operators with similar offerings but there are subtle differences which I need clarification on - just to make sure I am not going down the wrong path.

I would advise against any cheap advice or inexperienced advice as it could end up costing you a packet in the long run. Law grads are green just like grads in anything else. As Pedro suggests read the bills, gaming and lotteries act etc and make calls to the people who control this stuff. Unless your gonna pay a lawyer you can really trust to get the right opinion much better to rely on yourself.

wr_writes

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

There is a huge difference between gaming and gambling yet you’ve lumped them together in your OP. Gambling is regulated and it is becoming increasingly so, with the Gambling Control Bill passed (but not yet enacted). Have you read that Bill? Have you spoken to the DOJ (they who control the licence process) to get their views on what you want to do? What research have you done yourself?

For proper legal advice €3.5k is not a huge amount for skilled, concise, accurate input if you are serious about the venture. Pay peanuts, get monkeys.

Thanks again Pedro. I have spoken to the Gambling commission in the UK and they have basically told me to go and get my own legal advice as they don't validate business models. I am aware the the legislation is changing in Ireland and have read new legislation but am not confident in my ability to correctly interpret it. I know for sure that at some stage in the (not so distant) future I will need to cough up cash for services like this but but am keeping it lean for now. I will definitely get onto the Dept of Justice for feedback on this.

wr_writes

Deleted User wrote: »

I would advise against any cheap advice or inexperienced advice as it could end up costing you a packet in the long run. Law grads are green just like grads in anything else. As Pedro suggests read the bills, gaming and lotteries act etc and make calls to the people who control this stuff. Unless your gonna pay a lawyer you can really trust to get the right opinion much better to rely on yourself.

Yes point duly noted. I know this is the case but, still, I want to see what I can find out for free before I have to start laying out large sums.

One other 'angle' you could do here is approach a lawyer who is an expert in this area on the basis that you are going to use him/her to handle the licensing process for you. In that way you can probably get a free consultation on whether you need to apply for a license or not. Give them 'the pitch' Ask them for a full quotation on applying for licenses for you while getting the real information you want. They are lawyers after all, and its always fun to get the better of them!! Do it on the phone or face to face not by email.

wr_writes

Deleted User wrote: »

One other 'angle' you could do here is approach a lawyer who is an expert in this area on the basis that you are going to use him/her to handle the licensing process for you. In that way you can probably get a free consultation on whether you need to apply for a license or not. Give them 'the pitch' Ask them for a full quotation on applying for licenses for you while getting the real information you want. They are lawyers after all, and its always fun to get the better of them!! Do it on the phone or face to face not by email.

I like this one! In fairness, if I did need help with licencing etc. later, a free consultation may lead to further business for them anyway. Thanks again.

jacksn

Deleted User wrote: »

They are lawyers after all, and its always fun to get the better of them!! Do it on the phone or face to face not by email.

Im sure you wouldn't like it if people rang you up looking for free advice all the time with no intention of using your services.

God forbid their time was spent making a living.

jacksn

jacksn wrote: »

Im sure you wouldn't like it if people rang you up looking for free advice all the time with no intention of using your services.

God forbid their time was spent making a living.

When we are talking about people who in many circumstances play to win despite the moral repercussions, forgive me for not holding them in high regard.

Nika Bolokov

You can get free legal advice from the Legal department at UCC. If you Google free legal advice for start-ups UCC it should come up.

Oh I almost forgot , in keeping with the general theme of this forum over the past few years

HOW DARE YOU ASK A QUESTION IN AN INTERNET FORUM , FREE LEGAL ADVICE ???YOU CAN'T EXPECT 5 MINS FROM THE ENTREPRENURIAL GODS ON HERE IF YOUR AT THAT , WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU ARE AMERICA ?? HAVE YOU EVER EVEN WORKED IN A LAW FIRM?????

Really Interested

Two good reports on the industry

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Casino%20(Eng)%20for%20Web.pdf/Files/Casino%20(Eng)%20for%20Web.pdf

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/GamingLotteriesActs.pdf/Files/GamingLotteriesActs.pdf

While both a bit old do not think much has changed since then.

The chair of the first report is considered by many to be the expert in licensing.

Buttercake

OP i went to this last year, it was good & informative but what you need might be a bit out of scope.

https://www.meetup.com/Legalworkshopsdublin/

antoinolachtnai

My own view (and I have some experience and knowledge of current thinking) is that the two reports above no longer represent the true state of the Irish legal situation. There is certainly a major lack of clarity in relation to the law.

The advice above, to read and understand the G+L Act is not really helpful. I know this sounds like strange advice, but really, the law as written tells you little or nothing useful. It is worth reading for background and laughs, but that's about the end of it. And getting information about the Irish legal situation, I don't know how much help that will actually be in helping you establish what needs to be an international business. As I am sure you have realised, brexit has made the whole thing even more confusing.

Really though, your problem is not just the legal advice, it is how you are going to 'capitalise' your business generally, i.e., get the money to develop your ideas. I don't know whether your ideas are any good or not, but I do know that if they are, you need support to develop them. You need to find someone who can provide that support. At the very least, you will be able to find someone who can tell you whether what you want is workable or not. Think about who that person might be is my suggestion for a next step.

wr_writes

Nika Bolokov wrote: »

You can get free legal advice from the Legal department at UCC. If you Google free legal advice for start-ups UCC it should come up.

Oh I almost forgot , in keeping with the general theme of this forum over the past few years

HOW DARE YOU ASK A QUESTION IN AN INTERNET FORUM , FREE LEGAL ADVICE ???YOU CAN'T EXPECT 5 MINS FROM THE ENTREPRENURIAL GODS ON HERE IF YOUR AT THAT , WHERE DO YOU THINK YOU ARE AMERICA ?? HAVE YOU EVER EVEN WORKED IN A LAW FIRM?????

Haha. Most suggestions here have been very useful in fairness!

Just a side point, when you ask the Revenue Commissioners for tax clarifications, they give you excellent advice, given the financial details you give them. On the other hand, when I asked the UK Gambling Commission for legal clarifications on their own rules, they refuse and send you off to get expensive legal advice from a solicitor. Its the only sector on my startup journey so far where you cant get a freebee to get you started! Even my local LEO don't offer legal mentors, presumably due to the cost involved. I still need to contact the Irish Dept of Justice to see how if they can help me.

Thanks for your suggestion. I contacted UCC previously and they don't cover gaming/gambling law. It is a scheme run as part of a legal module that isn't running again until after Christmas.

wr_writes

Buttercake wrote: »

OP i went to this last year, it was good & informative but what you need might be a bit out of scope.

Thanks Buttercake. I do plan on giving this a go.

wr_writes

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

My own view (and I have some experience and knowledge of current thinking) is that the two reports above no longer represent the true state of the Irish legal situation. There is certainly a major lack of clarity in relation to the law.

The advice above, to read and understand the G+L Act is not really helpful. I know this sounds like strange advice, but really, the law as written tells you little or nothing useful. It is worth reading for background and laughs, but that's about the end of it. And getting information about the Irish legal situation, I don't know how much help that will actually be in helping you establish what needs to be an international business. As I am sure you have realised, brexit has made the whole thing even more confusing.

Really though, your problem is not just the legal advice, it is how you are going to 'capitalise' your business generally, i.e., get the money to develop your ideas. I don't know whether your ideas are any good or not, but I do know that if they are, you need support to develop them. You need to find someone who can provide that support. At the very least, you will be able to find someone who can tell you whether what you want is workable or not. Think about who that person might be is my suggestion for a next step.

Hi Antonio. That's for that. I come from a tech/dev background and have an advanced prototype platform developed. I (think) have enough knowledge on the company setup/tax side of things to get me going. I have received marketing and tax mentoring from LEO so that was useful. But I am beginning to think that bringing in someone with a background in compliance in this sector would be a good move as the law across many jurisdictions is in a state of flux at the moment. Its the biggest unknown I have and the area I have the least expertise in.

wr_writes

Really Interested wrote: »

Two good reports on the industry

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Casino%20(Eng)%20for%20Web.pdf/Files/Casino%20(Eng)%20for%20Web.pdf

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/GamingLotteriesActs.pdf/Files/GamingLotteriesActs.pdf

While both a bit old do not think much has changed since then.

The chair of the first report is considered by many to be the expert in licensing.

Thanks RI.

Another report I found that may show the direction where the law is going to go...
http://justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB17000062

wr_writes

wr_writes wrote: »

when I asked the UK Gambling Commission for legal clarifications on their own rules, they refuse and send you off to get expensive legal advice from a solicitor.

The UK office are not helpful at all and if you apply for anything there is has to be absolutely perfect or it will be rejected. However their site is very detailed and really has everything you need to know.

You should be looking to the Malta Gaming Authority who are now the leaders in licensing in Europe. Their website is detailed and they are proactive in getting people to license through them, and the people in there are decent and helpful. Their licenses work in the UK - although there might be some issues with Brexit.

wr_writes

Deleted User wrote: »

The UK office are not helpful at all and if you apply for anything there is has to be absolutely perfect or it will be rejected. However their site is very detailed and really has everything you need to know.

You should be looking to the Malta Gaming Authority who are now the leaders in licensing in Europe. Their website is detailed and they are proactive in getting people to license through them, and the people in there are decent and helpful. Their licenses work in the UK - although there might be some issues with Brexit.

Thanks ER. Their regulations seems to be more clear cut around "skill" based games. I will certainly take a closer look at this.

wr_writes

wr_writes wrote: »

Thanks ER. Their regulations seems to be more clear cut around "skill" based games. I will certainly take a closer look at this.

They are the first and only licensing authority for skill based games, and it will take the others some years catch up if they even do. MGA are lobbying the EU to rule certain games as skill based instead of pool betting. I have a good idea what your doing, and your going to find every country in Europe has a different thought about it, despite EU directives that they should all follow the same system. Some countries are behind like Ireland and there is no legislation at all, but it will come down the line if people are making money or any of the big boys start offering the game your most likely talking about. And probably its going to fall under pool betting, because they will follow the UK. Licenses ain't cheap by the way, and the costs are ongoing yearly, and you are taxed - and some legislators don't understand the margins in the game and have the tax set up so you can't make a profit. You also have the VAT issue, and your banking setup needs to be perfect also with a Tier 1 bank - and the bank won't start that until you have your license and some countries won't license you until you have the bank setup My advice to you is spend a week studying in detail, UK and Malta's setup for this and make sure you understand their financials. Have a clear idea of how the banking and money flow works too. Your not going to find a lawyer in Ireland who understands any of this if its what I think your doing! Only in the UK and Malta you'll find the right people.

mrawkward

Deleted User wrote: »

They are the first and only licensing authority for skill based games, and it will take the others some years catch up if they even do. MGA are lobbying the EU to rule certain games as skill based instead of pool betting. I have a good idea what your doing, and your going to find every country in Europe has a different thought about it, despite EU directives that they should all follow the same system. Some countries are behind like Ireland and there is no legislation at all, but it will come down the line if people are making money or any of the big boys start offering the game your most likely talking about. And probably its going to fall under pool betting, because they will follow the UK. Licenses ain't cheap by the way, and the costs are ongoing yearly, and you are taxed - and some legislators don't understand the margins in the game and have the tax set up so you can't make a profit. You also have the VAT issue, and your banking setup needs to be perfect also with a Tier 1 bank - and the bank won't start that until you have your license and some countries won't license you until you have the bank setup My advice to you is spend a week studying in detail, UK and Malta's setup for this and make sure you understand their financials. Have a clear idea of how the banking and money flow works too. Your not going to find a lawyer in Ireland who understands any of this if its what I think your doing! Only in the UK and Malta you'll find the right people.

El Rifle superb advice and info. Top drawer stuff.

pedroeibar1

All very interesting and helpful stuff but very academic because the basics are still there - how can this project have legs?

• OP is reluctant to spend 3.5k on legal advice because he is cash poor. Regardless of the quality of advice content, that is a very small amount relative to the money required for start-up costs in a complex and regulated industry.

• OP has admitted that he is techy, not skilled in compliance, and has no industry knowledge.

• OP says marketing and tax advice has come from LEO (I wonder how effective that is!)
• OP needs a wedge of cash and a Tier 1 bank (most of them are now on negative rates for cash deposits) and many of them are not taking on new customers.
• OP has no idea on how to obtain a licence
• Malta might have great gambling laws but here in Ireland it raises a red flag in the regulated entity sector, it is down there with Gibraltar.

OP – how much money do you think you need? What cash-flow projections have you done?

pedroeibar1

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

All very interesting and helpful stuff but very academic because the basics are still there - how can this project have legs?

• OP is reluctant to spend 3.5k on legal advice because he is cash poor. Regardless of the quality of advice content, that is a very small amount relative to the money required for start-up costs in a complex and regulated industry.

• OP has admitted that he is techy, not skilled in compliance, and has no industry knowledge.

• OP says marketing and tax advice has come from LEO (I wonder how effective that is!)
• OP needs a wedge of cash and a Tier 1 bank (most of them are now on negative rates for cash deposits) and many of them are not taking on new customers.
• OP has no idea on how to obtain a licence
• Malta might have great gambling laws but here in Ireland it raises a red flag in the regulated entity sector, it is down there with Gibraltar.

OP – how much money do you think you need? What cash-flow projections have you done?

I would argue that with a startup saving money on things like legal fees is very understandable. Its a small amount for a complex industry yes but everything adds up and if it can be avoided all the better.
Compliance for licensing can be pretty daunting, but that said it can be done as really there is nothing complex about the pile of documents and all the form filling for stuff like this. Its time consuming and painful to do, but a smart person can do it if they just pay attention to every little detail and are aware of the nitpicking of this kind of process and that absolutely nothing will be let slide by any authority processing for a license.
Any advice from the LEO is worrying in my opinion unless its the type of thing you'd find in a start your own business course so agree with you there.
Actually if its this business I'm thinking it is, no wedge of cash is needed for the Tier 1 bank because its not odds based and requiring big payouts from the operator - all deposits from customers go into escrow and can't be touched by the operator, and then get automatically dispersed. But he does need a reputable intermediary for payments processing already in the industry, with decent rates - (theres also monthly bank charges for the operation too and setup fees)
I would disagree with your assessment of Malta, and Gibraltar for that matter - in the gambling industry most of the top ten companies in the world have their setups offshore in Europe. If you were talking about the likes of Curacao or Belize I'd agree but - off the top of my head the likes of 888, Ladbrokes, Stan James, BetVictor, Boyle are in Gibraltar, Betsson are setup in Malta and dominate the scandinavian market through various subsidiaries. As far as I know the biggest in the world Bet365 is moving to Gibraltar or may already have.

No doubt the OP has a difficult road ahead with many challenges but nothing unsurpassable on the basis that the overall budget for this is six figures.

wr_writes

Deleted User wrote: »

They are the first and only licensing authority for skill based games, and it will take the others some years catch up if they even do. MGA are lobbying the EU to rule certain games as skill based instead of pool betting. I have a good idea what your doing, and your going to find every country in Europe has a different thought about it, despite EU directives that they should all follow the same system. Some countries are behind like Ireland and there is no legislation at all, but it will come down the line if people are making money or any of the big boys start offering the game your most likely talking about. And probably its going to fall under pool betting, because they will follow the UK. Licenses ain't cheap by the way, and the costs are ongoing yearly, and you are taxed - and some legislators don't understand the margins in the game and have the tax set up so you can't make a profit. You also have the VAT issue, and your banking setup needs to be perfect also with a Tier 1 bank - and the bank won't start that until you have your license and some countries won't license you until you have the bank setup My advice to you is spend a week studying in detail, UK and Malta's setup for this and make sure you understand their financials. Have a clear idea of how the banking and money flow works too. Your not going to find a lawyer in Ireland who understands any of this if its what I think your doing! Only in the UK and Malta you'll find the right people.

Thanks a million for this great post. I suppose it highlights just how much work there is too be done from a compliance perspective. I think I need to get my project costs in order for this and start looking for an investor.

wr_writes

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

All very interesting and helpful stuff but very academic because the basics are still there - how can this project have legs?

• OP is reluctant to spend 3.5k on legal advice because he is cash poor. Regardless of the quality of advice content, that is a very small amount relative to the money required for start-up costs in a complex and regulated industry.

• OP has admitted that he is techy, not skilled in compliance, and has no industry knowledge.

• OP says marketing and tax advice has come from LEO (I wonder how effective that is!)
• OP needs a wedge of cash and a Tier 1 bank (most of them are now on negative rates for cash deposits) and many of them are not taking on new customers.
• OP has no idea on how to obtain a licence
• Malta might have great gambling laws but here in Ireland it raises a red flag in the regulated entity sector, it is down there with Gibraltar.

OP – how much money do you think you need? What cash-flow projections have you done?

Hi Pedro,

From a tech perspective, I can get 90% of the work done myself. Indeed, most of it is done already with auditing many compliance features built in already. Deploying in the cloud allows scaling costs as I will need it.

From a compliance point of view it does appear I have grossly underestimated the cost and effort involved.