Electric vans

Firblog

I've had my leaf for over 18 mths now, will be replacing the company van soon (within next year or so), just wondered if anyone can recommend an electric model?

goz83

The nissan env200 if the range is ok for you and you don't need anything big. Not alot of options out there.

The Kangoo I believe is getting a larger but only 33 Kwh battery, 7 Kw only charging ( up from 3.5 Kw) and still no fast charging. And a dangerously under powered 60 HP motor which should be illegal in a commercial vehicle. Should have at least 150 HP, there is no need to have such ridiculously low power considering electricity is so cheap.

It just proves Renault and Nissan are not serious about electrifying vans what so ever. Nissan still only have a 24 Kwh battery in the Env200 but at least it's got fast charging and a liquid cooled battery so you can fast charge all day.

Dord

Bit bigger than the Renault-Nissan vans, VW have an electric Crafter coming later in the year and Ford are working on a Transit Custom Hybrid for 2018. The latter is a diesel hybrid though which is a pity.

Diesel hybrids would only exist for tax reasons, usually tax can be claimed back only on diesel. But diesel hybrids do not work efficiently due to them having to run more to keep the temperature up for emissions reasons, the hybrid may even actually cause higher emissions in a diesel which might not be caught out of course in the farce that is the NEDC Euro emissions test.

reboot

Firblog wrote: »

I've had my leaf for over 18 mths now, will be replacing the company van soon (within next year or so), just wondered if anyone can recommend an electric model?

The new Renault Kangoo at £16,500 plus a hefty battery rental is just plain silly money, although the replacement of a paraffin oil heater being replaced by a heat pump may be a step forward?

In an Irish climate the heat pump consumes little energy, more energy is consumed in winter due to the car having to use more energy to cut through cold air which is denser.

Below 3 deg C it does use more energy and more so the lower you go below 0 deg C.

Actually, wet roads consume a lot more energy add to that wind and even more so, you'll quickly realise that the heat pump is not in any way the greatest consumer of energy.

Pre heating from the mains also helps a lot to conserve energy as warm up uses the resistive heater.

Have to say the Kangoo EV update is really lame and I'd avoid it like the plague unless you can live with the stress of driving something so under powered but that's typical Renault anyway !!!

cros13

There's a new eNV200 on the way with a 38kWh useable pack.... in the next few months.

VW's Crafter and Renault's Master Z.E. are only for fleet sales initially and only available in small quantities.

Special Circumstances

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Have to say the Kangoo EV update is really lame and I'd avoid it like the plague unless you can live with the stress of driving something so under powered but that's typical Renault anyway !!!

Plenty lads had SDI powered vans back along.

I get what you're saying though, sound more like a lightweight urban delivery hobbies than a workhorse.

If they could make a "piaggio ape" version of the twizzy and a more powerful kangoo maybe?

Mooooo

Pity they aren't doing vans properly., in my own case for the farm an electric van would be ideal as a lot of short journeys along with space to carry most stuff. Towing with ev's could be an issue tho? Don't really tow much tho, would get more use out of 4 wheel drive

cros13

Mooooo wrote: »

Towing with ev's could be an issue tho? Don't really tow much tho, would get more use out of 4 wheel drive

Towing with an EV is much easier than with a diesel because we have a multiple of the low end torque.

The reason most EVs aren't set up to allow towing is economics. Towing at high speed like on the motorway puts a consistent high load on both the battery and motor. The battery side is easily fixed by higher capacity packs (pretty much all EV packs in the 40kWh+ range have enough headroom to handle towing duties) and the need for a more substantial cooling system for the motor. So far it hasn't been worth the investment and weight penalty to do it on mainstream EVs.

But the Tesla Model X is a good indicator of the towing ability of a mainstream big battery EV. The X accelerates on the motorway with a 2 ton trailer like it's not even towing.

And of course it won't be the only one.... Audi is out testing:

Special Circumstances

Special Circumstances wrote: »

Plenty lads had SDI powered vans back along.

I get what you're saying though, sound more like a lightweight urban delivery hobbies than a workhorse.

If they could make a "piaggio ape" version of the twizzy and a more powerful kangoo maybe?

Yes , I drove the SDI Canny Vans for many many miles, pure piles of dirt horrible engine and a pain to start in the cold. Would hardly get past 60 mph with roof rack and ladder.

That was a time when it was inconceivable to have power in a van , not that it couldn't be done, it just wasn't, it wasn't just for economy reasons either as those vans were not very economical due to having to drive the crap out of them all the time. It's just that the manufacturers could make more money by selling cheaper dirt, and they did.

Now to the present and people expect that a vehicle will move when you put the foot down, Renault still live in the past in that regard and think that less power = less battery used and while it may perhaps you will find driving it a frustrating experience on the open road, for town and local runs it will be fine.

The Zoe is another example, 90 HP and now a 75 HP, backwards they're going......

EV manufacturers need to get out of the one power for all mindset, it's just not going to work as electrics become more mainstream.

The Leaf is about the minimum power I could tolerate and the new one will have only about 10-15 HP more, FFS !

BoatMad

The Leaf is about the minimum power I could tolerate and the new one will have only about 10-15 HP more, FFS !

everyone , Ive met that drove my leaf, was astounded by the low end acceleration

remember 15HP in an electric motor is worth about three times that in a petrol engine

unkel

I'm with Mad Lad here. If you're coming from a 1.6d 120bhp, a similar 0-100km/h Leaf will be quick (because it's relatively quick off the mark)

If you're coming from V8 saloons or 6 pot sports cars, the performance is very meh

Nice that it's all there in an instant (a V8 auto has that too), but nothing to write home about

KCross

https://electrek.co/2017/12/21/vw-new-all-electric-van-deliveries/

The specs are s*it.

Basically an eGolf sized battery(35kWh) limited to 90kmh and limited to 40kW charging. Thats a very poor first attempt, imo.

Lets hope VW start living up to all their hype of late with concept car after concept car being trotted out.

la ultima guagua

KCross wrote: »

Lets hope VW start living up to all their hype of late with concept car after concept car being trotted out.

IMO not a hope.

VAG will continue in their efforts to prove that there is little demand for EVs

cros13

TBH VW don't have the battery supply to waste on commercial vehicles.

Neither does Daimler. Fuso eCanter included.

VW couldn't care less, they make too much money on TDI's regardless of battery supply.

EndaHonesty

Deleted User wrote: »

VW couldn't care less, they make too much money on TDI's regardless of battery supply.

VW recently announced a €60 billion investment in electric vehicles.

That includes building 4 battery manufacturing plants.

I think it's clear that they care.

I'll believe that when I read the plants are operational.

EndaHonesty

Deleted User wrote: »

I'll believe that when I read the plants are operational.

That reply makes no sense?!

The announcement was public, no need to doubt...

I'm aware of that announcement ages ago , announcing it is one thing , completing it is another.

EndaHonesty

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm aware of that announcement ages ago , announcing it is one thing , completing it is another.

The investment has been signed off/approved by the board and they are now bound to the plan.

It's a commitment.

cros13

Both VW and Daimler have been taking the headless chicken approach to planning their battery supply chain.

Both assumed cell supply would be there when they needed it. Daimler actually built a massive ~€2bn battery pack assembly plant for it's Accumotive subsidiary and now has next to no cells to feed it.

VW talked about building a battery plant back in 2016, not a brick laid since. VW, again relying on third parties to supply cells, sent purchasing managers and RFQs out looking for cell supply only to get quotes lower in quantity than requested and above the price level they could use to competitively build automotive packs from... if they got any response at all.
I know of several battery cell OEMs that were approached by the german carmakers. Negotiations stalled in most cases due to the carmakers unwillingness to sign contracts binding them to minimum purchase quantities sufficient to justify the manufacturing capacity buildout (which in many cases would have involved the OEM more than doubling cell output every year until the early-2020s) or refusing cost-sharing for that buildout.

It takes at least 2 years to build a cell manufacturing plant of reasonable scale and usually another year after first production to hit full volume. With the exceptions of BYD, Panasonic/Tesla and maybe CATL and including expansion of existing plants none of the major battery cell OEMs is going to be growing volume above 50% a year between now and 2020.
To actually have a shot at hitting their targets VW needed to start panicking back in 2016, form a partnership with SK/LG/Samsung and have a plant ready next year to hit serious volume production in 2019 to have batteries for the cars coming off the production line. But they didn't and they don't.

It's a very real possibility that the early 2020s will see VW/Daimler/BMW and PSA with falling revenue from ICE vehicles and with their EV product lines strangled at birth by lack of batteries.

Let's take a look at Jaguar Land Rover's recent RFQ for 2170 cells.

RFQ was for an order of 2 billion (yeah... with a 2170 cells per annum. The current output of cylindrical cells of all sizes, for all purposes by all south korean OEMs is less than half the scale of this contract. i.e. the winner of this contract would have to triple the sum of it's own production AND it's local competitors combined.

Based on JLRs current production numbers, and the range of pack sizes needed to cover the product range they currently offer, that quantity of batteries isn't even enough to replace half their 2017 ICE production with EV powertrains.

If this battery supply issue continues for a few years I could seriously see hydrogen back in the headlines and that would really end any form of cheap motoring as Governments tax it to hell and suppliers take a chunk of the cost.

Problem then is building a "safe" hydrogen network.

ELM327

Hydrogen would be the fuel of the future choice of governments - easy to tax and you can't fill up at home. Like fossil fuel, even the filling stations networks would be the same.

Doesnt suit the consumer as well as EV though

KCross

cros13 wrote: »

It's a very real possibility that the early 2020s will see VW/Daimler/BMW and PSA with falling revenue from ICE vehicles and with their EV product lines strangled at birth by lack of batteries.

If the battery supply issue is as bad as you paint it wont it be a case that it will be the same for everyone (bar Nissan and Tesla) and so ICE sales wont decline because EV's wont be there in quantities and variety to satisfy the market?

i.e. You can largely rule out Tesla as they only sell "expensive" cars. Nissan are a notable exception as they have an affordable EV and have battery capacity.

cros13 wrote: »

Let's take a look at Jaguar Land Rover's recent RFQ for 2170 cells.

RFQ was for an order of 2 billion (yeah... with a 2170 cells per annum. The current output of cylindrical cells of all sizes, for all purposes by all south korean OEMs is less than half the scale of this contract. i.e. the winner of this contract would have to triple the sum of it's own production AND it's local competitors combined.

Based on JLRs current production numbers, and the range of pack sizes needed to cover the product range they currently offer, that quantity of batteries isn't even enough to replace half their 2017 ICE production with EV powertrains.

So, did Land Rover sign contracts for that RFQ or are they also fooked?

Methinks they wont need so many batteries anyway based on how they've priced the iPace!

KCross

Deleted User wrote: »

If this battery supply issue continues for a few years I could seriously see hydrogen back in the headlines and that would really end any form of cheap motoring as Governments tax it to hell and suppliers take a chunk of the cost.

Problem then is building a "safe" hydrogen network.

Hydrogen can't come back unless govts are willing to fund the fuel stations. I can't see it happening.

unkel

Sounds pretty depressive. I think I will HODL Ioniq. And maybe put some PV on my roof next year.

cros13

ELM327 wrote: »

Hydrogen would be the fuel of the future choice of governments - easy to tax and you can't fill up at home. Like fossil fuel, even the filling stations networks would be the same.

Doesnt suit the consumer as well as EV though

I don't see anyone wasting money on hydrogen. The economic and technical issues are too big.

More likely the penny will drop with enough investors that the battery cell production required will get built out... just not as fast as we all hope and too slow for many carmakers to survive.

KCross wrote: »

If the battery supply issue is as bad as you paint it wont it be a case that it will be the same for everyone (bar Nissan and Tesla) and so ICE sales wont decline because EV's wont be there in quantities and variety to satisfy the market?

i.e. You can largely rule out Tesla as they only sell "expensive" cars. Nissan are a notable exception as they have an affordable EV and have battery capacity.

Tesla/Panasonic have the economies of scale on the cell to compete at any price point, but at the moment it's in their interest for many reasons to keep high margins (producing halo products which grow the market, proving demand, bringing in capital and investment to fund expansion). Nissan has the breathing room afforded by the former AESC plants, but they're not out of the woods.

I'd bet on similar market behaviour to Norway. As soon as people see EV as a viable option for them, they hang on to their existing ICE until they can get the EV.
The other side of the plug-in vehicle sales story in norway has been stagnant demand for combustion vehicles since 2012.

And the third factor is the chinese. If the moment passes for the european carmakers we might see new Sino-european brands like Borgward or Volvo/Geely etc. with the chinese bringing their battery supply with them.

KCross wrote: »

So, did Land Rover sign contracts for that RFQ or are they also fooked?

Methinks they wont need so many batteries anyway based on how they've priced the iPace!

IFAIK they are talking to OEMs about exactly what their contribution to the manufacturing build-out will be. JLR have existing contracts with LG Chem for the iPace but Samsung SDI have more production headroom to fill the order. Didn't hear about a contract being signed yet.

I haven't heard anything definitive on the iPace pricing yet. But if the reports from NL are true that would point to JLR being unable to get cells for the price they'd anticipated. Which would also track with rumors about difficulty getting batteries for that 200 car test production run back in September/October.