Who on here keeps saying fast charging is a decade away?

unkel

Of course it is not. Porsche installed and opened their first two 350kW chargers. They are currently only providing a max of 150kW (as no current vehicle can take more), but with a simple software flash can be enabled to provide 350kW

That would bring down the time to charge say a current Ioniq from almost empty to almost full to about 4 minutes (if only Ioniq could take that)

About the same time as it takes now to fill an ICE car. Sure enough it will take 2019 / 2020 cars with 60kWh batteries about 9 minutes. But I'd say that's still pretty acceptable to most people

ELM327

It's like the fianna fail posters from 2007 said, a lot done a lot more to do!

There are no batteries that can take more than 70kW outside of a Tesla right now, so installing 150kW chargers seems a bit redundant - for now.

However if there's the possibility to have a 60/70kWh battery accept 350kW then you could charge from empty right to nearly full in less than 10 minutes. That's getting to the "comparable to ICE" stage. Both for range and for charge time.

Victor

unkel wrote: »

Porsche installed and opened their first two 350kW chargers.

You realise that between them, they would need their own 10kV transformer (about 630kVA, typically used to power a whole housing estate)? Alternatively, the mother of all batteries / capacitors.

Not for home use.

ELM327

Victor wrote: »

You realise that between them, they would need their own 10kV transformer (about 630kVA, typically used to power a whole housing estate)? Alternatively, the mother of all batteries / capacitors.

Not for home use.

But they are not intended for home use, they are intended for motorway service stations.

DC charging is not for home use at all, even in current gen.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

That's getting to the "comparable to ICE" stage. Both for range and for charge time.

My point exactly. Hugely important for the adoption of EV as it takes away 2 of the most negative aspects of owning an EV:

1. long charging times at FCP and might even have to wait for other people in the queue

2. have to own your own charge point, house and driveway

la ultima guagua

unkel wrote: »

.... Porsche installed and opened their first two 350kW chargers.......

Yet another example of how others are following Teslas lead

Would this have happened if Tesla were not well in to their charge station build program ?

corks finest

Obviously it's coming,even me as a confirmed luddite can see that,,,,who thought we could could fast charge phones a few years back,,,think once the majority embraces the whole electric car concept then it will happen

reboot

unkel wrote: »

Of course it is not. Porsche installed and opened their first two 350kW chargers. They are currently only providing a max of 150kW (as no current vehicle can take more), but with a simple software flash can be enabled to provide 350kW

That would bring down the time to charge say a current Ioniq from almost empty to almost full to about 4 minutes (if only Ioniq could take that)

About the same time as it takes now to fill an ICE car. Sure enough it will take 2019 / 2020 cars with 60kWh batteries about 9 minutes. But I'd say that's still pretty acceptable to most people

Who on here doesn't need fast charging? Me.
Some say tha fast charging contributed to the Samsung Galaxy note disaster?

Slaanesh

Elon Musk was asked about 350kW chargers in reference to supercharger V3. Judging by his twitter response they could have something even more powerful in the bag.

Elon Tweet

liamog

reboot wrote: »

Who on here doesn't need fast charging? Me.
Some say tha fast charging contributed to the Samsung Galaxy note disaster?

Fast charging wasn't the cause of the Note 7 issues, they had a manufacturing error leading to pressure being applied to the battery.

To translate, if a car was manufactured with a vice grip around the battery it would be the same effect, the speed of charge doesn't really cause this kind of issue.

reboot

How many 7 kva CP's, could one supply for one rapid?.There may be a killing of the golden goose issue?

liamog

reboot wrote: »

How many 7 kva CP's, could one supply for one rapid?.There may be a killing of the golden goose issue?

In a hypothetical situation,
1 150kW vs 20.8 7.2 kW stations.
The time to charge 21 cars is the same for each.

To charge 21 72kWh battery's would either take 21 sessions of 28:48mins or 21 sessions of 10 hours.

reboot

Thanks for that, interesting on many levels.

reboot

Interesting in view of the thread above on "street light charging." Why does there seem to be an agenda against AC charging? Think some of us suspect Edison over Tesla (the original). joke.

BoatMad

reboot wrote: »

Interesting in view of the thread above on "street light charging." Why does there seem to be an agenda against AC charging? Think some of us suspect Edison over Tesla (the original). joke.

many reasons

technical

(a) why carry a dead wight charger around in the car, when charging takes place with the car stopped at a fixed place

(b) AC charging cannot reach DC power levels without very expensive in car solutions

(c) Low power AC is only good for low levels of EV penetration , its cant scale

(d) low power AC forces long term charging requiring the reservation of expensive resources in parking space

reboot

Well said, and factual,thanks

Water John

Just how must lick, can present batteries take? I know there are heating issues and degredation. I presume, manufacturers are being quite conservative, at present?

bk

I disagree with BoatMad, to give you another perspective:

AC charging is very important. The VAST majority of EV charging will be done over night on AC charging. It is by far the most convenient way and the cheapest.

On street AC charging is important for people who live in houses with street only parking.

DC fast charging is important too, but I suspect it will end up representing less then 10% of all charging. It will mostly just be for long distance journeys.

liamog

bk wrote: »

I disagree with BoatMad, to give you another perspective:

AC charging is very important. The VAST majority of EV charging will be done over night on AC charging. It is by far the most convenient way and the cheapest.

On street AC charging is important for people who live in houses with street only parking.

DC fast charging is important too, but I suspect it will end up representing less then 10% of all charging. It will mostly just be for long distance journeys.

AC Charging is a great idea for small batteries, but as BoatMad says, it stops making sense as we hit larger batteries.

I'd predict 60kWh cars become the norm in the near future. If cars stay at the 15kWh/100km efficiency, anybody driving under 21,000km a year would only need to charge once a week.

A 60kWh battery could charge at a 150kW DC station. Its the same charge rate of 2.5C that the Ioniq is capable of so we know the battery tech can take it. You'd hit 84% charge in 20 mins and have added 330km of range.

On street charging is complicated in terms of electricity provision (beefing up the local grid), reserved spaces, trip hazards, and in my opinion, street chargers are just plain ugly.

Stick a number of 150kW chargers in supermarket car parks. You do your weekly shop, the car is charged.

In the same location, add grid level battery storage, the charger operator would be incentivised to do this anyway to avoid peak rate electricity costs, and it gives us a stable sink to send renewable energy too.

Water John

Thanks Liam, that makes sense. Any jump in battery tech, added to that, is a bonus.

reboot

Like everything else, it depends on your situation, lifestyle,tech knowledge, and the EV model you drive.
I have never benefited​ from any fast CP over the past 5 years, as the EV doesn't accept, a DC input. In fact some have never worked with 3 cars I tried at Newry, one only last week, it has never worked,on it's A C o/p with my vehicles.
If liamog is correct, and I understand his comments above, for every FCP, 21,7kva CPs could be provided for the same expenditure?
I know which I vote for, but others have different requirements.
The biggest battery storage in Europe will be at Kilroot power station at Larne, why not use that as a DC supply for EVs?

liamog

I was working off energy requirements rather than cost.

I've heard it's a 10:1 ratio for installation costs when installing public ac chargers vs public dc chargers. I can't remember the source though

KCross

I can't see why AC needs to disappear. A large portion of the population has access to it from their driveways and on a standard connection you can add 50kWh's every night! That's 600km+ available to you everyday without diverting to DC chargers.

That's more than anyone needs and if they do they can just charge earlier outside night rate or visit an FCP during their occasional long journey.

I don't care if hauling around AC charging capability results in my car doing, say, 15kWh/100km vs 14kWh/100km!

I'd consider 20mins of my time once a week at a DC charger a waste of my time.

What I want is convenience.

Maybe AC capability can become an optional extra.

liamog

I'd support the idea of AC Charging being an optional extra.

It doesn't need to disappear, but I do think it shouldn't be part of the future public charging solution.

Here's a really cool fast charger that would be great for the Irish market.

http://www.evtec.ch/en/products/espressoandcharge/

It scales to 150kW by adding DC modules in 10kW blocks, and is capable of dynamic DC power splitting. I.E. two cars can DC charge at the same time, with the load split based on demand. So if I plug in my 150kW car after a 50k car had already started, I'd be able to charge using the other 100kW.

Interestingly its the same charger the Richard Hammond used to charge the Rimac he crashed.

Water John

Yeah, it will be a range of options. The best solutions for someone who doesn't have a house with a parking space/drive will be FCPs.
So we need high speed FCPs (DC)and the option of domestic charging (AC). Putting it in plain english.

bp_me

BoatMad wrote: »

(a) why carry a dead wight charger around in the car, when charging takes place with the car stopped at a fixed place

Just on this... an 11kW AC charger weighs around 10kg. 7.2 and 3.6 units are a bit lighter but there isn't as much in it as you might think. Admittedly stepping up to a 22kW ac is a little less than 2x the weight of the 11kW but still... not heavy enough to talk about them being dead weight.

KCross

bp_me wrote: »

Just on this... an 11kW AC charger weighs around 10kg. 7.2 and 3.6 units are a bit lighter but there isn't as much in it as you might think. Admittedly stepping up to a 22kW ac is a little less than 2x the weight of the 11kW but still... not heavy enough to talk about them being dead weight.

Aren't there other components that would need to be added.. inverter etc?

But regardless, I'd still be of the opinion that the added weight would not stop me having it for the convenience of home charging.

Maybe another alternative is to have a DC charger at home.

bp_me

KCross wrote: »

Aren't there other components that would need to be added.. inverter etc?

No. Im talking about the entire AC charge assembly. Granted there is a little extra coolant in the cooling circuit for them but that's not especially significant either.

KCross

bp_me wrote: »

No. Im talking about the entire AC charge assembly. Granted there is a little extra coolant in the cooling circuit for them but that's not especially significant either.

10kg out of ~1500kg is irrelevant if your figures are right.

reboot

KCross wrote: »

bp_me wrote: »

Just on this... an 11kW AC charger weighs around 10kg. 7.2 and 3.6 units are a bit lighter but there isn't as much in it as you might think. Admittedly stepping up to a 22kW ac is a little less than 2x the weight of the 11kW but still... not heavy enough to talk about them being dead weight.

Aren't there other components that would need to be added.. inverter etc?

But regardless, I'd still be of the opinion that the added weight would not stop me having it for the convenience of home charging.

Maybe another alternative is to have a DC charger at home.

I recall a time when Belfast had a DC supply, I used the white socket in a workshop.

bk

The biggest problem is that I suspect really high speed DC charging at garages etc. will in reality end up becoming premium priced.

As a result I suspect that the vast majority of charging will continue to be AC overnight at home (or maybe work).

I suspect DC will be a premium product reserved mostly for long journeys or the poor unfortunate who can't do onstreet charging for whatever reason.

As KCross says, who wants to go to a fast charger for 20 minutes even once a week, when you can get 50kwh a night on AC at the cheapest prices possible and always leave in the morning with a full tank.

Really, I'm just not seeing it. Of course DC fast charging is important, but I suspect the vast majority of EV charging will continue to be at home, even with big batteries. After all Tesla's have big batteries already, yet the majority of their charging is still done at home.

liamog

bk wrote: »

The biggest problem is that I suspect really high speed DC charging at garages etc. will in reality end up becoming premium priced.

As a result I suspect that the vast majority of charging will continue to be AC overnight at home (or maybe work).

I suspect DC will be a premium product reserved mostly for long journeys or the poor unfortunate who can't do onstreet charging for whatever reason.

As KCross says, who wants to go to a fast charger for 20 minutes even once a week, when you can get 50kwh a night on AC at the cheapest prices possible and always leave in the morning with a full tank.

Really, I'm just not seeing it. Of course DC fast charging is important, but I suspect the vast majority of EV charging will continue to be at home, even with big batteries. After all Tesla's have big batteries already, yet the majority of their charging is still done at home.

Tesla have acknowledged that their will be a shift in customers with the model 3 and are planning more suburban superchargers to address the apartment/on street parkers. The S & X are targeted at high worth individuals who are likely to have garages and driveways.

The future will be a mix, every FCP that is required for the suburbanites is a public FCP that can be used by the landed gentry from the countryside on their travels.

Del2005

KCross wrote: »

10kg out of ~1500kg is irrelevant if your figures are right.

Not really. Manufacturers are pulling spare wheels from cars to save a few kilos, space savers aren't much more than 10kg, and that's a safety concern. So while to you and me 10kg in respect of a car isn't much for manufacturers it's huge.

bp_me

Del2005 wrote: »

Not really. Manufacturers are pulling spare wheels from cars to save a few kilos, space savers aren't much more than 10kg, and that's a safety concern. So while to you and me 10kg in respect of a car isn't much for manufacturers it's huge.

Only in respect of attempting to game the CO2 testing regime. Obviously a much lesser issue for BEVs.

Del2005

liamog wrote: »

Tesla have acknowledged that their will be a shift in customers with the model 3 and are planning more suburban superchargers to address the apartment/on street parkers. The S & X are targeted at high worth individuals who are likely to have garages and driveways.

The future will be a mix, every FCP that is required for the suburbanites is a public FCP that can be used by the landed gentry from the countryside on their travels.

Hopefully they'll resolve the problem with multiple fast charges soon




https://www.google.com/amp/s/electrek.co/2017/05/07/tesla-limits-supercharging-speed-number-charges/amp/

KCross

Del2005 wrote: »

Not really. Manufacturers are pulling spare wheels from cars to save a few kilos, space savers aren't much more than 10kg, and that's a safety concern. So while to you and me 10kg in respect of a car isn't much for manufacturers it's huge.

The context of my comment was in relation to range.

10kg out of 1500kg won't make any noticeable difference to the range so I would happily add the 10kg to the car to have the convenience of home charging.


Incidentally, the Leaf and Ioniq have no spare wheel!!

unkel

Even 100kg will not have a huge impact on range. At a constant speed, it will have near zero impact (slightly higher tyre resistance), the impact will only be when accelerating (but then again when slowing down you will have extra regen)

The difference in energy consumption between Ioniq and Tesla model S at a constant 90km/h is a lot smaller than you think, maybe about 25%. And I reckon this is not a lot to do with the Tesla being 600kg heavier, but more that the Ioniq is a more modern, more efficient car. And that the Tesla having more drag. Coefficient is the same, but frontal area in the Tesla is bigger.

cros13

unkel wrote: »

Even 100kg will not have a huge impact on range. At a constant speed, it will have near zero impact (slightly higher tyre resistance), the impact will only be when accelerating (but then again when slowing down you will have extra regen)

This. When I looked at energy consumption for the Model S doing Belfast to Cork the difference in energy consumption for five 90kg passengers vs one was in the region of 1% of total consumption for the whole trip, all other factors being equal.