Revenue want to charge BIK on charging at work......

la ultima guagua

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/charging-electric-cars-at-work-brings-benefit-in-kind-tax-liability-1.3155508


SNAFU ( the lefthand does not know what the righthand is doing )

One solution seems to be to make free work chargers available for use by the public. Sounds good to me :P

I like to see how they're going to do this, they should charge for tea and coffee, would be worth considerable revenue.

Orebro

Some on here have said their companies checked this with Revenue before installing chargers and they said it was fine, no BIK involved.

Anyway, surely every company will see sense and get anyone using them to pay a nominal fee of 10 quid for the year for usage.

Utterly impossible to collect this tax without it costing multiples of what would be collected. Would be amazed if Revenue were even bothered by this after looking at it for 2 seconds.

I'd say what happened is that some employee got interviewed and thought that if you are charging at work then you're getting something for free, added 2 and 2 and got 5.

So if revenue think that they should get something from EV charging then why do they think tea and coffee should be free ?

Orebro

Have to agree with you there - I reckon this is a red herring that will get cleared up soon. I know of major pharma companies that have installed these for workers too - no way in heck they would have gotten done without checking this BIK thing with Revenue first.

Dardania

I submitted my concern on this topic under the recent DCCAE consultation - silly roadblock to put in peoples way to EVs...
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the_syco

Orebro wrote: »

Have to agree with you there - I reckon this is a red herring that will get cleared up soon.

I hope so, as otherwise a few employers will just switch them off, and discourage other employers from installing them!

jimmycrackcorm

It doesn't make sense to provide free public charging, VRT rebates, and grants, yet impose BIK.

unkel

Exactly Jimmy. Money spent on promoting EVs in Ireland is extremely inefficient. Throwing €10k cash at us just for buying a car and then we can only boast our motor tax is €50 lower than our neighbours diesel, we still pay parking and tolls. Nothing there to make a non-EV owner jealous (=wanting to buy an EV next time)

Charles Babbage

If companies were giving free diesel to their employees the revenue would tax it, they should not discriminate between taxpayers.

unkel

Charles Babbage wrote: »

If companies were giving free diesel to their employees the revenue would tax it, they should not discriminate between taxpayers.

Fill up a diesel = worth €50 = material BIK = you will pay tax
Fill up an EV = worth €2 = not material as BIK (same as coffee, charging your phone, surfing the internet on your lunch break) = you will not pay tax

ELM327

Interesting because this is the opposite of what we were told by revenue.

CeilingFly

Remember its silly season in the media at present, so they look for anything and everything to write about.

As a benefit for employees, if there's no cost to the employee, then bik would have to apply under current rules.

Very simple solution is to charge employee a small monthly fee.

ELM327

CeilingFly wrote: »

Remember its silly season in the media at present, so they look for anything and everything to write about.

As a benefit for employees, if there's no cost to the employee, then bik would have to apply under current rules.

Very simple solution is to charge employee a small monthly fee.

Revenue told me (and I have the email) that it is akin to free coffee at work.

Take the coffee example and match it with your list:
-Benefit for employees (YES)
-Cost to the employee (NO)

Yet BIK is not charged as the amount is negligible. It's the same as EV charging. Should I pay BIK on the €2 of electricity I took today? :eek:
Bearing in mind revenue advised that it was not due for BIK due to low amount, I will stick wth not pying BIK!

ELM327

And reading the article, I'm shocked at the quotes from

Joe McCarthy of MCC Energy

As an installer of chargepoints and a member of the iveoa he should have known better IMO.

KCross

My direct response from revenue about BIK is here:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103680576&postcount=17

Its simple really... they have their official response and their unofficial response.

- Officially, EV charging at work incurs a BIK because it is a benefit given for free to employees.
- Unofficially they dont enforce it and the bigger companies who have multiple chargers on site are probably paying millions in tax so chasing a few hundred on EV charging is irrelevant.

The next budget should put it to bed because they dont collect the tax today so they wont lose any revenue on it so an easy win for the govt. Like all the other incentives they can limit the BIK exemption until a certain numbers of EV's are on the road.

isnottheword

KCross wrote: »

The next budget should put it to bed because they dont collect the tax today so they wont lose any revenue on it so an easy win for the govt. Like all the other incentives they can limit the BIK exemption until a certain numbers of EV's are on the road.

That would be the sensible thing i.e. that they formalise the exemption. I know in the case of at least one employer, they went for a pay model rather than free charging on the basis that they may not be compliant re. benefit in kind.

KCross

KCross wrote: »

The next budget should put it to bed because they dont collect the tax today so they wont lose any revenue on it so an easy win for the govt. Like all the other incentives they can limit the BIK exemption until a certain numbers of EV's are on the road.

I seriously doubt the next budget will even have any mention of electric cars. And so no funding for the charging for yet another year.

homer911

Next there'll be bik for charging your phone, or for the toilet paper...

KCross

@homer911, no financial gain to wiping your arse so you're safe on that one!

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

@homer911, no financial gain to wiping your arse so you're safe on that one!

Well there is if you can buy less toilet paper if you schedule all said "breaks" to during your work hours.

Marcusm

unkel wrote: »

Fill up a diesel = worth €50 = material BIK = you will pay tax
Fill up an EV = worth €2 = not material as BIK (same as coffee, charging your phone, surfing the internet on your lunch break) = you will not pay tax

Civil servants get free coffee at work like many office workers. No BIK is assessed.

Civil servants do not get access to fee EV charge points therefore anyone with work based access receives a taxable benefit.

I'm not being cynical; this is the basis. The employers should simply gross up the value of the benefit rather than attempting to track and allocate usage.

Yourself isit

Marcusm wrote: »

Civil servants get free coffee at work like many office workers. No BIK is assessed.

Civil servants do not get access to fee EV charge points therefore anyone with work based access receives a taxable benefit.

I'm not being cynical; this is the basis. The employers should simply gross up the value of the benefit rather than attempting to track and allocate usage.

That's right. Free parking in the centre of Dublin - the taxing of which would be environmentally friendly - isn't BIK because civil servants get a lot of it.

AndrewJRenko

Yourself isit wrote: »

That's right. Free parking in the centre of Dublin - the taxing of which would be environmentally friendly - isn't BIK because civil servants get a lot of it.

The availability of this benefit is often overstated in the media. There are many, many CS offices with very, very limited parking. I know of two offices with hundreds of staff that have just a handful of parking spaces each. Don't assume that the majority of CS staff have free parking.

BoatMad

Charles Babbage wrote: »

If companies were giving free diesel to their employees the revenue would tax it, they should not discriminate between taxpayers.

taxation policy is not " indiscriminate " or even " fair ". It is used as an instrument to effect change as well.

the tax system discriminates all over the place as a result

BoatMad

Marcusm wrote: »

Civil servants get free coffee at work like many office workers. No BIK is assessed.

Civil servants do not get access to fee EV charge points therefore anyone with work based access receives a taxable benefit.

I'm not being cynical; this is the basis. The employers should simply gross up the value of the benefit rather than attempting to track and allocate usage.

funny so , the charge point in the car park of DTTAS isn't for ciivil servants !!!!!

facts mate check your facts

the provision of canteen facilities , inc food etc IS SPECIFICALLY EXEMPT from BIK in the relevant legislation

outside of what is specifically exempt , ALL NON CASH benefits are technically BIK-able ( including borrowing laptops, use of company equip etc etc )

Its just that revenue cant be bothered , ( and they are not bothered on BIK for EV work charging either )

Budget 2018 will bring in BIK changes for EVS and will amend this anomaly

BoatMad

Yourself isit wrote: »

That's right. Free parking in the centre of Dublin - the taxing of which would be environmentally friendly - isn't BIK because civil servants get a lot of it.

no it was abandoned because the logistics of actually computing the BIK became way too complex, the vast majority of centre city CS do not drive to work ( as they isnt sufficient parking )

Marcusm

BoatMad wrote: »

funny so , the charge point in the car park of DTTAS isn't for ciivil servants !!!!!

facts mate check your facts

the provision of canteen facilities , inc food etc IS SPECIFICALLY EXEMPT from BIK in the relevant legislation

outside of what is specifically exempt , ALL NON CASH benefits are technically BIK-able ( including borrowing laptops, use of company equip etc etc )

Its just that revenue cant be bothered , ( and they are not bothered on BIK for EV work charging either )

Budget 2018 will bring in BIK changes for EVS and will amend this anomaly

It's great that there's a charge point at DoTTAS; would be odd if they did not move forward. I sense that you feel I'm CS bashing which I'm not. It simply reflects the fact that there is an inherent presumption that no BIK or taxable perquisite (for cash items) arises in respect of facilities supplied by government. The existence of canteen facilities has historically been the preserve of CS, and large unionised workforces. The lack of an equality of treatment is inherent in the inability, other than 19c of luncheon vouchers, for employers without such facilities (or the scale to provide such facilities) to provide an equivalent level of benefit to its employees. Likewise, the CS mileage rates are set at a level where it is perceived that no "profit" element is included - that being said many private sector employees find it more than a simple return costs incurred.

I don't have an issue with an ev charge point, personally I think they should have a broad roll out - service station with more than a set number of hose points, supermarkets with more than X parking spaces, should be required to provide them. Employers should certainly not be penalised with their provision.

It remains the case, however, that the provision of free car parking remains a significant benefit which is untaxed both in the public and private sector and the reason why is obvious.

BoatMad

It's great that there's a charge point at DoTTAS; would be odd if they did not move forward. I sense that you feel I'm CS bashing which I'm not. It simply reflects the fact that there is an inherent presumption that no BIK or taxable perquisite (for cash items) arises in respect of facilities supplied by government. The existence of canteen facilities has historically been the preserve of CS, and large unionised workforces. The lack of an equality of treatment is inherent in the inability, other than 19c of luncheon vouchers, for employers without such facilities (or the scale to provide such facilities) to provide an equivalent level of benefit to its employees. Likewise, the CS mileage rates are set at a level where it is perceived that no "profit" element is included - that being said many private sector employees find it more than a simple return costs incurred.

There is no basis for what you claim

fact : There are CPs in state offices that are availed of by civil ( and public servants ) , They are subject to the same BIK determination as any users of workplace charging , which as of currently, Revenue are simply ignoring (as they also ignore many other forms of trivial BIK)

Fact: the provision of free canteen facilities is largely a function of the private sector, civil servants rarely have access to free or even subsidised canteen facilities, unlike Google Facebook etc, ( which are by and large non union) BIK legislation reflects that " perq" as state policy is that canteens are " good ", especially for shift workers

The legislation exempting canteens was largely a private sector issue

Again , any employer can agree with Revenue , appropriate mileage costs that do not result in a BIK element, we had a custom agreement with Revenue for many years , based on actual costs of running the company fleet

The civil service rates are merely those rates determined by Revenue as to apply to public and civil servants, HOWEVER many companies adopted those rates because its easier then justifying custom rates


what I am addressing is you claim that situations pertaining to the Civil Service have somehow forced such situations on the larger public, nothing could be further from the truth

BoatMad

I don't have an issue with an ev charge point, personally I think they should have a broad roll out - service station with more than a set number of hose points, supermarkets with more than X parking spaces, should be required to provide them. Employers should certainly not be penalised with their provision.

Employers are NOT penalised for installing CPs. INfact they benefit from accelerated capital allowances, allowing a one year write off of capital costs as opposed to 8 years normally. In addition the LEV taskforce is recommending grant aid be extended to companies

Bis will be modified to exclude EVs ( on a sliding scale ) including the provision of employer electricity to employees in Budget 2018 , assuming everything goes to plan ,

AndrewJRenko

Any chance of getting free eBike charging points to match the EV charging? EVs aren't going to help us solve our traffic problems.

bk

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Any chance of getting free eBike charging points to match the EV charging? EVs aren't going to help us solve our traffic problems.

Don't most electric bikes have removable batteries that you can take out and plug in to a regular plug under your desk?

jimmycrackcorm

bk wrote:

Don't most electric bikes have removable batteries that you can take out and plug in to a regular plug under your desk?

A lot of companies ban you plugging in chargers etc for safety reasons.

Also toasters.

bk

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

A lot of companies ban you plugging in chargers etc for safety reasons.

Also toasters.

Haha, the ESB had to build a new sub station just for our office! A little bitty battery isn't a problem

Seriously though, ebike batteries are seriously small. They are designed for charging in regular home plugs, so really shouldn't be an issue for any office, if it is they have more serious issues.

The workstations I've at my desk would use significantly more power then an ebike battery.

Toasters is more about idiots burning themselves or catching fire. We once had to evacuate the office because a toaster caught fire, multiple units of Dublin Firebrigade turned up and all :rolleyes:

BoatMad

The workstations I've at my desk would use significantly more power then an ebike battery.

True, but such workstations cannot release that power in a blinding millisec of high energy explosion , whereas a Li battery unfortunately can ( and do )

Indeed, if I were an employer and know what I know about batteries I would forbid any battery inside.

bk

BoatMad wrote: »

True, but such workstations cannot release that power in a blinding millisec of high energy explosion , whereas a Li battery unfortunately can ( and do )

Deleted User wrote: »

Indeed, if I were an employer and know what I know about batteries I would forbid any battery inside.

So.... what about the Lithium Ion batteries in all those laptops/ipads/iphones plugged in and charging in the office :rolleyes:

Nevermind the massive UPS's all over the place.

embraer170

bk wrote: »

They are designed for charging in regular home plugs, so really shouldn't be an issue for any office, if it is they have more serious issues.

We are not allowed allowed most things including coffee machines, toasters, portable heaters, etc. Mobile phone chargers are allowed.

Gumbo

Marcusm wrote: »

Civil servants get free coffee at work like many office workers. No BIK is assessed.

Civil servants do not get access to fee EV charge points therefore anyone with work based access receives a taxable benefit.

I'm not being cynical; this is the basis. The employers should simply gross up the value of the benefit rather than attempting to track and allocate usage.

I can confirm that we have to pay for our own milk, tea bags, sugar etc at our office tea station. We all throw a €1 a week into a jar.

We pay for our tea in the canteen etc

Large public service in dublin.