Recourse against letting agent over problem tenants

Baby01032012

On holidays outside country at the moment

Received email early this morning from management company. Complaints from multiple tenants and care taker against tenants that moved into my apartment 2 months ago.

Dozens of visitors at all hours many different people staying there. They all appear to be gypsies from a particular eastern country. Banging on wrong doors. Damaging main door when they can't get in.

I used a letting agent to source and vet them. When I get back home I'll verify all this and issue anti social notice or notice to quit. I'm worried that I won't be able to get them out or damage that's been done.

Apart from following rta and taking case to RTB if I can't get them out what is my recourse against letting agent given its 2 months into tenancy and list of problems management company have emailed me this morning.

Michael D Not Higgins

I'm sure the letting agents have a suitable liability waiver in their contract with you. You'd be best to read your contract then speak to your solicitor if you feel you have a case of breach of contract.

The_Conductor

In addition- if its a development with a management company etc- you are liable for any damage they cause (such as to the security door etc).

When there are large numbers of people trying to get into an apartment at all hours- normally this is an indication that there could be other reasons they are trying to gain entry (e.g. there could be an errrr- unauthorised business being run from the premises...........)

gizmo81

Just be aware if you don't take swift action you could be racking up third-party cases at the RTB against you.

You are responsible to enforce your tenants obligations in multi-unit dwellings and the neighbours can take a case/cases against you.

A landlord of a rental dwelling owes to each person, who could be potentially affected (e.g. by anti-social behaviour), a duty to enforce the obligations of the tenant under the tenancy. (s.15 of the Act).

https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/dispute-resolution/the-three-stages-of-a-tenancy/anti-social-behaviour-third-party-cases

Baby01032012

Thanks for the advice.

I'm back in the country. I called to the apartment this morning but whoever was there wouldn't let me in. Then I got a call from the "husband" saying I frightened his wife and I needed to phone first. All I did was ring door and knocked on door and announced who I was and the tenants names. I told him the issues how serious they are and I'm obliged to take immediate action. He refused to meet me today or tomorrow but early next week.
I'm giving a anti social warning immediately now with a termination notice should complaints continue. He didn't seem bothered that I might want to terminate.

I reread the email from the management company and now see mention of "paying guests" and one particular visitor identified by another apartment as a punter.

Termination within first 6 months isn't an option as letting agent gave them a 12 month lease, is that correct?

If prostitution can I give the guards a heads up that something might be going on, I'd probably need actual evidence though or maybe they don't care.

Anything else I can do. 2 months into new tenancy and I'm faced with my apartment being used for illegal activity and looking at non payment and over holding if I try to terminate.

gizmo81

Baby01032012 wrote: »

Thanks for the advice.

I'm back in the country. I called to the apartment this morning but whoever was there wouldn't let me in. Then I got a call from the "husband" saying I frightened his wife and I needed to phone first. All I did was ring door and knocked on door and announced who I was and the tenants names. I told him the issues how serious they are and I'm obliged to take immediate action. He refused to meet me today or tomorrow but early next week.
I'm giving a anti social warning immediately now with a termination notice should complaints continue. He didn't seem bothered that I might want to terminate.

I reread the email from the management company and now see mention of "paying guests" and one particular visitor identified by another apartment as a punter.

Termination within first 6 months isn't an option as letting agent gave them a 12 month lease, is that correct?

If prostitution can I give the guards a heads up that something might be going on, I'd probably need actual evidence though or maybe they don't care.

Anything else I can do. 2 months into new tenancy and I'm faced with my apartment being used for illegal activity and looking at non payment and over holding if I try to terminate.

I'm sorry to hear about your situation.

Having been a tenant beside a brothel, it's a nightmare. I advise you to get a solicitors advice, don't be turning up unannounced.

I took a third-party case to the RTB against a landlord because he failed to put a halt to a brothel being run in his property. I won.

The Gardai did nothing, zero. Report it but don't expect any help.

The_Conductor

Get proper advice.

Regardless of how awful the tenants are- or whether or not they're running a brothel from the unit- you, as their landlord, cannot turn up at the premises and request admission to the dwelling.

Be very very careful- the manner in which the 'husband' responded- would lead me to believe he is dangling rope hoping to get you to hang yourself..........

An illegal eviction- could be very costly- and even if they are running a brothel from the premises- you still have to make sure you dot all your 'i's and cross all your 't's.

Be very very careful- and make 100% certain you do everything by the book.

the_syco

Baby01032012 wrote: »

If prostitution can I give the guards a heads up that something might be going on, I'd probably need actual evidence though or maybe they don't care.

Do. They'll shut it down if they can; www.herald.ie/news/five-charged-with-running-a-brothel-after-apartment-raid

Baby01032012 wrote: »

I reread the email from the management company and now see mention of "paying guests" and one particular visitor identified by another apartment as a punter.

See if you can find out which apartment said this, and give the apartment number and the letter of complaint to the Gardai.

=-=

As said above, get legal advice now rather than later.

wordofwarning

Get yourself a good solicitor. If you make a single slip up in the eviction process, like giving a wrong time period etc you could be back to day one.

I would get the person who made the complaint to the management company to go to the Gardai. Selling sex is legal. Operating a brothel is illegal and the Gardai I imagine will be interested in closing it.

As someone has stated, if you are seen as making a half baked attempt to evict them. The RTB will give you a fine

ted1

You need to get them out within the first 6 months, a 1 year lease means nothing as part 4 kicks in and they can stay for 6 years

4ensic15

ted1 wrote: »

You need to get them out within the first 6 months, a 1 year lease means nothing as part 4 kicks in and they can stay for 6 years

A 1 year lease mans an awful lot. A valid notice of termination can't be issued during it. The o/p should watch the apartment and identify the visitors. Most likely the tenants will move if they know someone is on to them.
The agent should have obtained passport id and references for the tenants. See if these check out.

whippet

I had a very similar experience to you .. not a knocking shop ... but very similar.

Numerous complaints about anti social behaviour and loads of bteechesnof the tenancy after a couple of month along with no rent.

It was impossible to get them out ... did everything by the book but on the day they were supposed to leave they demanded €10k to vacate. The place was trashed.

A couple of weeks later they had a couple of run ins with the guards and due to the husbands 'profession' they had to move on suddenly.

Everying is stacked in the tenants favour in circumstances like this.

Only advice .. engage a solicitor and keep the guards informed

gizmo81

I was absolutely sure that terminating a lease whether fixed or part-V for anti-social behaviour was the same as for rent arrears. 14 Days notice to stop anti-social behaviour followed by 28 days to vacate if 14 day notice ignored. Anyone have any clarity on this for the OP?

In accordance with section 16(h) of the Residential Tenancies Act 2004 you are obliged not to behave within the above dwelling, or in the vicinity of it, in a way that is anti-social. You are also obliged not to allow other occupiers of, or visitors to, the above dwelling to behave within it, or in its vicinity, in a way that is anti-social.

https://www.rtb.ie/docs/default-source/notice-of-terminations-landlord-pdf/notice-of-termination-for-anti-social-behaviour.pdf?sfvrsn=2

ted1

4ensic15 wrote: »

ted1 wrote: »

You need to get them out within the first 6 months, a 1 year lease means nothing as part 4 kicks in and they can stay for 6 years

A 1 year lease mans an awful lot. A valid notice of termination can't be issued during it. The o/p should watch the apartment and identify the visitors. Most likely the tenants will move if they know someone is on to them.
The agent should have obtained passport id and references for the tenants. See if these check out.

It means nothing to the landlord with regards the tenants only staying a year. A valid notice for a valid reason can be issued. After 6 months it's damn near impossible

Baby01032012

I believe because it's a fixed term that I can't terminate within first 6 months. Might email RTB on this one.

I was looking through the lease the agency got the tenant to sign. I don't think it's compliant with latest law. Because it's RPZ it's subject to 4% however lease doesn't give the calculation or when the rent was last reviewed which I believe is a requirement.

Also the tenant has been paying the rent on time but paying €3 more..so instead of XX52 they pay XX55

The_Conductor

Baby01032012 wrote: »

I believe because it's a fixed term that I can't terminate within first 6 months. Might email RTB on this one.

I was looking through the lease the agency got the tenant to sign. I don't think it's compliant with latest law. Because it's RPZ it's subject to 4% however lease doesn't give the calculation or when the rent was last reviewed which I believe is a requirement.

Also the tenant has been paying the rent on time but paying €3 more..so instead of XX52 they pay XX55

Even fixed term leases normally have clauses in them to address anti-social behaviour etc. Normally- the clauses are pretty much copied and pasted from the Residential Tenancies Act- i.e. a landlord doesn't give the tenant undue or unreasonable rights over and above those they are afforded in the Act.

Check the lease- it *should* have specific clauses governing antisocial behaviour etc.

4ensic15

ted1 wrote: »

It means nothing to the landlord with regards the tenants only staying a year. A valid notice for a valid reason can be issued. After 6 months it's damn near impossible

The 6 month limit is only useful when there is no fixed lease.he fact that a tenancy has become part 4 doesn't mean the tenqanct can't be evicted for a valid reason any more that a tenant under a fixed term lease can't be evicted for a valid reason. The LL has to go through the procedures of warning notice, notice of termination etc. proving anti-social behaviour is nearly impossible. the o/p hasn't seen any admissible evidence of it yet.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

The 6 month limit is only useful when there is no fixed lease.he fact that a tenancy has become part 4 doesn't mean the tenqanct can't be evicted for a valid reason any more that a tenant under a fixed term lease can't be evicted for a valid reason. The LL has to go through the procedures of warning notice, notice of termination etc. proving anti-social behaviour is nearly impossible. the o/p hasn't seen any admissible evidence of it yet.

If the other residents were to make official complaints to the Management Company- who then brought it to the landlord- he would be bound by the terms of association to act on it. A few Garda reports similarly- would be helpful.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

If the other residents were to make official complaints to the Management Company- who then brought it to the landlord- he would be bound by the terms of association to act on it. A few Garda reports similarly- would be helpful.

All hearsay. He would have to get statements from witnesses. The witnesses would then have to give oral evidence at the hearing.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

All hearsay. He would have to get statements from witnesses. The witnesses would then have to give oral evidence at the hearing.

Its not hearsay if the Management Company issue an enforcement notice on foot of complaints- we do it often enough here.

The burden of proof seems a bit excessive- esp. as the landlord can be held accountable for the actions of the tenants- if they don't resolve it ASAP. The RTB will happily hold the landlord accountable, and make financial findings against, for any complaints other residents make about their tenants...........

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its not hearsay if the Management Company issue an enforcement notice on foot of complaints- we do it often enough here.

The burden of proof seems a bit excessive- esp. as the landlord can be held accountable for the actions of the tenants- if they don't resolve it ASAP. The RTB will happily hold the landlord accountable, and make financial findings against, for any complaints other residents make about their tenants...........

Someone from the management company has to go to the hearing. A copy of the notice is hearsay. The burden of proof is the balance of probabilities but gathering admissible evidence and presenting it is difficult. .

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

Someone from the management company has to go to the hearing. A copy of the notice is hearsay. The burden of proof is the balance of probabilities but gathering admissible evidence and presenting it is difficult. .

Someone from the Management Company will have to go to the hearing?
Its not going to happen........
Why would someone from the Management Company take time out to facilitate the landlord?

We've had requests to attend here- and have told the landlord- its his problem- to solve it- however, we're fining him for every day the tenant remains in situ.

I don't see how/why the Management Company anywhere else would get involved- other than to serve notice on the landlord- and fine him/her if the tenant is not promptly removed (as happens in any managed facility).

It is not the Management Company's job to assist the landlord with his/her tenant.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

Someone from the Management Company will have to go to the hearing?
Its not going to happen........
Why would someone from the Management Company take time out to facilitate the landlord?

We've had requests to attend here- and have told the landlord- its his problem- to solve it- however, we're fining him for every day the tenant remains in situ.

I don't see how/why the Management Company anywhere else would get involved- other than to serve notice on the landlord- and fine him/her if the tenant is not promptly removed (as happens in any managed facility).

It is not the Management Company's job to assist the landlord with his/her tenant.

If the management company wants the problem solved for the benefit of the residents, the management company should assist the landlord, not seek to profit from him. The notice issued by the management company is not admissible evidence of anti-social behaviour by the tenant. As for fining a landlord, what clause in the lease does your management company rely on ?

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

If the management company wants the problem solved for the benefit of the residents, the management company should assist the landlord, not seek to profit from him. The notice issued by the management company is not admissible evidence of anti-social behaviour by the tenant. As for fining a landlord, what clause in the lease does your management company rely on ?

Our leases (from the mid 1990s) have specified codes of conduct for residents- and allow for escalating Class A, B and C fines to be applied on a daily, weekly or monthly basis. We can amend what a Class A, B or C entails at an AGM or EGM.

Its worked- thus far (we've closed down a few brothels, a food storage business, a grow house, 15 people living in a 2 bed apartment, and general misbehaviour on the part of residents (including storing a vintage car in the car park for several months without moving it)).

It depends on what leases say- however, I singularly fail to see why you think it is fair or reasonable for the landlord to expect a representative from the Management Company to attend a hearing- any issue with a tenant is between the tenant and landlord, and it is not a function ascribed to a management company to involve themselves in the relationship the landlord has with his/her tenant.

We have been requested to attend a few hearings in recent years (for a variety of reasons- including a tenant who tampered with gas meters)- we have refused every request outright, as the Management Company has no relationship with the tenant.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

, I singularly fail to see why you think it is fair or reasonable for the landlord to expect a representative from the Management Company to attend a hearing- any issue with a tenant is between the tenant and landlord, and it is not a function ascribed to a management company to involve themselves in the relationship the landlord has with his/her tenant.

We have been requested to attend a few hearings in recent years (for a variety of reasons- including a tenant who tampered with gas meters)- we have refused every request outright, as the Management Company has no relationship with the tenant.

Anti social behaviour is by definition offensive to other residents. It is to the benefit of all residents to have it stopped. What is the point of the landlord losing a case at the rtb because of a lack of help from the management companyThis thread is a case in point. the o/p has no admissible evdience of anti-social behaviour. He would lose a case in the RTB if he tries to go in on the basis of what he now knows. He is a subscrier to the management company and the least he should expect is some assistance to deal with the problem.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

Anti social behaviour is by definition offensive to other residents. It is to the benefit of all residents to have it stopped. What is the point of the landlord losing a case at the rtb because of a lack of help from the management companyThis thread is a case in point. the o/p has no admissible evdience of anti-social behaviour. He would lose a case in the RTB if he tries to go in on the basis of what he now knows. He is a subscrier to the management company and the least he should expect is some assistance to deal with the problem.

The Management Company has no legal relationship with the tenant.
They can forward all complaints to the landlord- and if it is not dealt with- pursue a case against the landlord on behalf of residents and/or alongside residents.

It is not a function ascribed to Management Companies- to spend their time attending RTB hearings with landlords- hell, you'd need to employ someone just for this purpose if you were going down this road- and you can be damn certain there would be no funding allocated for it at the AGM.

A Management Company can supply a landlord with information- such as CCTV and/or other verifiable information- they cannot, however, attend a hearing between a landlord and a tenant (and to be perfectly honest- I don't think the RTB would even allow them attend).

Its all well and good suggesting that they have a vested interest in resolving the issue- the issue however, is between the landlord and the tenant- and the non-resolution of the issue- is between the landlord and management company- not the management company and the tenant.

A management company cannot get involved in the legal relationship between a landlord and his/her tenant.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

The Management Company has no legal relationship with the tenant.
They can forward all complaints to the landlord- and if it is not dealt with- pursue a case against the landlord on behalf of residents and/or alongside residents.

It is not a function ascribed to Management Companies- to spend their time attending RTB hearings with landlords- hell, you'd need to employ someone just for this purpose if you were going down this road- and you can be damn certain there would be no funding allocated for it at the AGM.

A Management Company can supply a landlord with information- such as CCTV and/or other verifiable information- they cannot, however, attend a hearing between a landlord and a tenant (and to be perfectly honest- I don't think the RTB would even allow them attend).

Its all well and good suggesting that they have a vested interest in resolving the issue- the issue however, is between the landlord and the tenant- and the non-resolution of the issue- is between the landlord and management company- not the management company and the tenant.

A management company cannot get involved in the legal relationship between a landlord and his/her tenant.

A management company has a legal relationship with a tenant. the tenant has certain rights which the management company must uphold. CCTV is hearsay and has to be proven. The RTB must allow appropriate witnesses to attend. A tenant has no relationship with an engineer called by a landlord or a builder called by a landlord to prove damage. A legal relationship is not necessary for a witness. Anti social behaviour is a tri partite issue between tenant, landlord and those affected. the management company is the obvious representative of those affected. Attending as a witness is a hearing does not involve the management company getting involved in the legal relationship between the landlord and the tenant. making a complaint to the landlord of anti social behaviour by his tenant does.

What good does it do if the case is lost at the RTB. Tenant remains in situ causing trouble. Great result. Thanks management company.

The_Conductor

We're 100% definitely not going to agree on this one.

The OP has already been directed to seek professional assistance- which is what they *need* to do.

I'd love to know why you think a Management Company has a legal relationship with a tenant- you and I seem to have a fundamental different understanding on this point.

The Management Company has rights and obligations towards and from the owners of the units- be they owner occupiers or landlords. Similarly- owners, who are members of the Management Company- have rights and obligations which are specified in their owners leases.

As we're actually bickering on this point- I propose we leave it be- as we're not going to agree.