POV (Point of View) Questions

Fathom

Read The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes by Jack Bickham. One claimed mistake caught my attention. New authors were sometimes mistaken by not primarily focusing on their main character's POV throughout novel. Compare this to George R. R. Martin's Game of Thrones. Each novel chapter often took a different character name and their POV. Who is right? Jack Bickham or George R. R. Martin?

beauf

I'd say it makes books more accessible.

Fathom

beauf wrote: »

I'd say it makes books more accessible.

Please clarify. Jack Bickham claims shifting POV between characters a mistake. Main character POV should prevail. Yet George R. R. Martin has been highly successful shifting POV between characters in A Game of Thrones (1996), A Clash of Kings (1998), A Storm of Swords (2000), A Feast for Crows (2005), and A Dance with Dragons (2011). Who is correct?

beauf

Your question is based on a Logical Fallacy. Martin is not a new author.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_R._R._Martin#Bibliography

A lot of Fantasy books and series are ruined by shifting POV. Personally I would say GOT series has too much of it also. So for most authors its probably wise advice.

But then you have to appreciated why Martin wrote it. After decades of being restricted to writing for TV shows where he was restricted in scope due to the limitation of TV etc. He wanted to write something with no limitations, basically throw the kitchen sink at it. Hence as many characters as he wanted. An excess.

Speaking for myself, too many characters and thus by association too many POV becomes too complex and laborious. So often people lose interest.

beauf

What do you think.

LionelNashe

Fathom wrote: »

Read The 38 Most Common Fiction Writing Mistakes by Jack Bickham. One claimed mistake caught my attention. New authors were sometimes mistaken by not primarily focusing on their main character's POV throughout novel. Compare this to George R. R. Martin's Game of Thrones. Each novel chapter often took a different character name and their POV. Who is right? Jack Bickham or George R. R. Martin?

The first time I became aware of books with multiple POV was Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series. It was probably in other books I read before those, but I didn't notice it. In my opinion, it works really well. It really draws you into the story and the characters. If Bickham is saying that the use of multiple POV by writers like Jordan and GRR Martin is wrong, then I'd say he's wrong, but I think it's more likely he's making some completely different point.

beauf

Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time is probably most criticized for its character & POV bloat. It loses it way completely.

I would argue that both GOT and WOT could lose 50% of their characters and be much stronger for it.

The OP suggests the advice specifies "New authors". I have to accept that at face value. If I was giving anyone writing, advice it would to keep the story line and especially the character arc tight and focused.

Das Kitty

I don't think the advice is about multiple points of view in a novel (not the way I've heard it anyway). In the GoT series, each chapter is given from a specific character's point of view (and if memory serves) sticks with it rigidly for the duration of the chapter.

I think what's been warned against is more the head hopping thing within a scene, where you get a close point of view for more than one character during a single scene or interaction. Sometimes an omnicient/god POV is thrown in there too.

This can work, and work well, however it's really tricky to get right. It's incredibly confusing for a reader if it's not right. Which I think why the advice is given to the "new" writers.

A close third person pov, or a first person pov is easier to get right, and an easier way to engage the reader, because tension is built out of only seeing part of the picture, and tension is what makes us as readers keep turning the page.

beauf

Without a direct quote its hard to know.

Fathom

beauf wrote: »

Your question is based on a Logical Fallacy. Martin is not a new author.

Jack Bickham recommended that new novel fiction authors look at the works of established, successful authors. For how they treated POV and other creative writing issues. They got published and paid; i.e., Bickham's definition of success. Was George R. R. Martin successful? "A Song of Fire and Ice" has sold over 25 million copies to date. Although Bickham stressed that a novel should predominately have a main character POV, he did acknowledge it was an issue of debate. George R.R. Martin appears to markedly differ with Bickham in POV.

beauf wrote: »

What do you think.

Uncertain. Hence I asked in Creative Writing.

Das Kitty

Fathom wrote: »

Jack Bickham recommended that new novel fiction authors look at the works of established, successful authors. For how they treated POV and other creative writing issues. They got published and paid; i.e., Bickham's definition of success. Was George R. R. Martin successful? "A Song of Fire and Ice" has sold over 25 million copies to date. Although Bickham stressed that a novel should predominately have a main character POV, he did acknowledge that it was an issue of debate. George R.R. Martin appears to markedly differ with Bickham in POV.


Uncertain. Hence I asked in Creative Writing.

The best bit of writing advice I ever read was "Forget every piece of writing advice you are ever given."

When you read published books you will find every "rule" flouted. You will find writers who do not write every day (most common advice of all). You will find all manner of showing and not telling.

The rules are there for beginners. Established authors don't read lists of rules. They're basically trying to guide new writers around the common pitfalls. It's kind of like parenting advice when you're pregnant. You lap it up, and then the baby comes and you make all the mistakes you were advised against anyway. :pac:

Fathom

Das Kitty wrote: »

In the GoT series, each chapter is given from a specific character's point of view (and if memory serves) sticks with it rigidly for the duration of the chapter.

Often with the character's name for chapter title.

Das Kitty wrote: »

This can work, and work well, however it's really tricky to get right. It's incredibly confusing for a reader if it's not right. Which I think why the advice is given to the "new" writers.

I think it works for George R. R. Martin. Perhaps not for "new" writers, as you suggest.

Fathom

Das Kitty wrote: »

The best bit of writing advice I ever read was "Forget every piece of writing advice you are ever given."

Appreciate your creative writing shared wisdom. I'm still left with the decision to have, or not have a predominantly main character POV. Have toyed with having 2 main character POVs that eventually converge, becoming one. May be courting trouble. Uncertain.

beauf

Fathom wrote: »

..Uncertain. Hence I asked in Creative Writing.

With respect, no one else will know your opinion on it.

The question needs the context in which your considering it. Game Of thrones is an invalid comparison or context for a new author, considering it was written by someone with a staggering amount of writing, life and commercial writing experience across many genres, before he wrote GOT. From my readers perspective. Writing with many different POV works less often than it does. Its successful to a point in GOT. After which its overload. I'm open to correction but I think he is no longer able to cover all the characters, and story arcs in a single book. I'm not sure why anyone would take GOT as a guide to writing. Its like using War and Peace as a guide to writing a short story. I'm being deliberately facetious sorry.

beauf

Fathom wrote: »

Appreciate your creative writing shared wisdom. I'm still left with the decision to have, or not have a predominantly main character POV. Have toyed with having 2 main character POVs that eventually converge, becoming one. May be courting trouble. Uncertain.

2 would be ok. I thought you mean 5+ or something like that.

Often you find a story is 95% one POV but 5% dips into a 2nd POV for perspective when things are unclear or obscured, or in a different location to the first character.

beauf

I think its more apparent now that you are doing something much lighter than GOT so the rest of this is probably invalid now.

Fathom wrote: »

...I think it works for George R. R. Martin. Perhaps not for "new" writers, as you suggest.

I think of Game of Throne is like a Saving Private Ryan watershed moment of Fantasy though.

That said the bulk of my Fantasy reading was done many years ago. I'd have drift net the remote parts of my memory to remember other books of that scope and scale.

More ScFi but Julian May did a lot of characters and POV in accessible way in
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga_of_Pliocene_Exile

Fathom

beauf wrote: »

I'm not sure why anyone would take GOT as a guide to writing. Its like using War and Peace as a guide to writing a short story. I'm being deliberately facetious sorry.

In addition to George R. R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire series, stories from multiple viewpoints occurred in Jodi Picoult’s My Sister’s Keeper, Margaret Atwood’s The Year of the Flood, William Faulkner’s As I Lay Dying, Barbara Kingsolver’s The Poisonwood Bible, and Amy Tan’s The Joy Luck Club. My fairly recent read of Amy Tan found her use of multiple POVs quite compelling. Jack Bickham also cautioned that creative writing goes though style and structure shifts. I'm uncertain if main character POV vs. multiple character POVs may be affected.

beauf

Are they new authors?

Das Kitty

Fathom wrote: »

Appreciate your creative writing shared wisdom. I'm still left with the decision to have, or not have a predominantly main character POV. Have toyed with having 2 main character POVs that eventually converge, becoming one. May be courting trouble. Uncertain.

I'd say go for whichever option excites you the most. You're going to have to live and work with it for months (if not years). You don't want to be stuck with a version of the book that bores you when you're in a longterm relationship with it.

You'll find the answers, and the right shape in the writing of it. I never really know what a piece of writing I'm working on is actually about until I'm at the end. And often not even then. It's a process.

That idea of 2 character points of view converging to one sounds class, btw.

Das Kitty

beauf wrote: »

Are they new authors?

Zadie Smith's White Teeth was her debut when she was in her 20s. It has lots of POV characters.

Don't let tips and rules get in the way writing the book you want to write.

Fathom

Das Kitty wrote: »

That idea of 2 character points of view converging to one sounds class, btw.

Current thinking. Fits story. Thanks for encouragement.

Mr.Nice Guy

I think the story you wish to tell ought to provide you with the answer. For example if you were writing a story about a woman making a journey across the country to bury her father, then you probably don't need to have the perspective of anyone but the protagonist; on the other hand, if the story were about the entire family having to come to terms with the father's loss then the different perspectives may be quite beneficial for the story you have in mind.

I would suggest reflecting some more on the story that you have and ask yourself, is this point of view going to add something worthwhile, or just take away from it?

Personally I wouldn't dwell too much on what other authors do because I can think of examples of authors that have taken both of these approaches and done well. For instance, Stephen King's The Stand uses different perspectives and is often regarded as his best work, yet he has done other great books with a single perspective such as Pet Sematary.

Steinbeck had success with shifting narratives in Tortilla Flat and Cannery Row, yet also had success with a single perspective in The Pearl and The Grapes of Wrath.

I think it just comes down to listening to the story.

beauf

Das Kitty wrote: »

Zadie Smith's White Teeth was her debut when she was in her 20s. It has lots of POV characters.

Don't let tips and rules get in the way writing the book you want to write.

Out of curiosity I wondered how many were new authors of the books given as examples.

George R. R. Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire series (24th Book after 24yrs)
Jodi Picoult’s My Sister’s Keeper, (10th book after 12yr)
Margaret Atwood’s The Year of the Flood, (13th novel Many others 40yrs)
William Faulkner’s As I Lay Dying, (after 10yrs of writing couldnt get list)
Barbara Kingsolver’s The Poisonwood Bible (after 10yrs dunno 8-10th book)
Amy Tan’s The Joy Luck Club. (2nd book, 1st novel after 2yrs)

beauf

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

...I would suggest reflecting some more on the story that you have and ask yourself, is this point of view going to add something worthwhile, or just take away from it?...

...that is of course the critical point...