Vat 13.5 or 23% on digger hire?

johney

Hello Folks,

what percentage vat do I pay for digger and driver? Is it 13.5 or 23%. Thanks

tomwaterford

Afaik 13.5....its a service

the_pen_turner

I don't know but I'm guessing it would depend on the cost of the digger for the day. vat is based on the 2 thirds rule . hypothetically if the driver is on 100 a day and the digger hire is over 200 for the day then the vat should be 23 %

Username John

Always paid 13.5% for digger hire here...

johney

thanks folks,

Do not understand this 2/3 rule so maybe you can tell me what you think the vat would be. Driver and digger work total less than 19 hours. Told me its €1600. Moving digger+60 per hour plus vat. Leveling site around house.

fanmanad

13.5% vat all the time. 2/3 rule only applies if you are supplying material to do a job!

Grueller

johney wrote: »

thanks folks,

Do not understand this 2/3 rule so maybe you can tell me what you think the vat would be. Driver and digger work total less than 19 hours. Told me its €1600. Moving digger+60 per hour plus vat. Leveling site around house.

Either she is a biiiiig digger or the driver is riding you I think. 21 tonne machine with a genius around here driving it, plus a tractor, stonecart and a second man laying pipes is €60 per hour including VAT.

Paullimerick

It would be between 50-60 euro down our side for that size of digger and driver also. Good deal with tractor and stone kart and digger and men for 60 euro grueller.

johney

yes its a 21 tonne machine. I will admit I got a big shock. Had the man before at 38 per hour cash but was a smaller machine. Didn't know he had brought a bigger machine this time and it was never mentioned. But that's my fault as maybe I should have asked but I didn't think about it. The man did the work and he will get paid, just trying to figure out his pricing. I will see him tomorrow to pay him at any rate.

leoch

Any digger man who charges u 60 for moving the digger is taking the piss when u are paying him tell him it's his last time here... plenty of digger in the country

johney

he is charging 100 euro for moving digger. Then 60 per hour work. Then vat. I waited 3 Months for him until he had a job beside me. But still the charge. But that's his prerogative. But trying to figure out the rest of the pricing as its still too much. I am thinking maybe he rounded it off to 3 whole days?

leoch

Ask him to itemize the bill and then argue about the movement price he will knock something of it I bet

Username John

johney wrote: »

he is charging 100 euro for moving digger. Then 60 per hour work. Then vat. I waited 3 Months for him until he had a job beside me. But still the charge. But that's his prerogative. But trying to figure out the rest of the pricing as its still too much. I am thinking maybe he rounded it off to 3 whole days?

It's similiar down here... there is a price to bring the digger, and then it's 55 - 60 per hour for the machine after that. Can't remember the exact price...
Have a feeling the digger is bigger than a 21 ton though... maybe 23 or 24...

But you only for the hours worked, no more. And filling the hours in a day is taking the piss...

Also, you know you can claim back the VAT on this Johnny (assuming you are a farmer)

whelan2

Username John wrote: »

It's similiar down here... there is a price to bring the digger, and then it's 55 - 60 per hour for the machine after that. Can't remember the exact price...
Have a feeling the digger is bigger than a 21 ton though... maybe 23 or 24...

But you only for the hours worked, no more. And filling the hours in a day is taking the piss...

Also, you know you can claim back the VAT on this Johnny (assuming you are a farmer)

Just wondering is there a set price for bringing the digger or does it relate to were the digger was before this, oh moves a good few tracks machines and it takes a good while to load, secure, unsecure off load.

Username John

whelan2 wrote: »

Just wondering is there a set price for bringing the digger or does it relate to were the digger was before this, oh moves a good few tracks machines and it takes a good while to load, secure, unsecure off load.

Set price as far as I know Whelan. Think it's 100euro...

Cavanjack

Never heard of paying to get digger moved before. Any lad we had round here the clock starts ticking when he starts working.

the_pen_turner

whats wrong with charging to move the digger.

there is labour, deisil, wear and tear, overheads, extra insurances for road use, bring all the equipment back home again, maybe a vehicle in front cost. all these are part of the job and should be charged to it.


saying that charging next door to bring it to them and then charging you aswell to bring it another 100 yards is taking the piss a bit. that cost should be shared

the_pen_turner

fanmanad wrote: »

13.5% vat all the time. 2/3 rule only applies if you are supplying material to do a job!

I thought that when you hired out machinery that it went down on the material side

I occasionally have to hire out a con saw or wall chaser etc and my accountant told me to put it in as a material.
she said its the labour v all other costs (materials, hire, waste removal , millage if far away, hotel costs if staying , toll costs etc)

I would like more clarity on this if anyone could shed some light

tomwaterford

leoch wrote: »

Ask him to itemize the bill and then argue about the movement price he will knock something of it I bet

If twas me coming up againest like of this id charge e150 to move the digger on the bill

You know hes going charging x for something and then you wait until your going paying him and has the job done to haggle/beat him down on that price,

Its pure wrong,if you agree a price,pay the man or get someone else whos cheaper

tomwaterford

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I thought that when you hired out machinery that it went down on the material side

I occasionally have to hire out a con saw or wall chaser etc and my accountant told me to put it in as a material.
she said its the labour v all other costs (materials, hire, waste removal , millage if far away, hotel costs if staying , toll costs etc)

I would like more clarity on this if anyone could shed some light

Its a good when you hire it

But if you hire someone in to use it aswel,they are providing a service


Afaik this is why it usually works out cheaper to let someone to fit the tyres to your car aswel as supply them

johney

thanks folks for the replies,

I am not arguing the payment of the 100 euro. I was just disappointed that after making me wait so long until he was close, he could have shared the digger move cost. I am just trying to figure out where his sum of 1600 came from after 18 1/2 hours work at a price of 60 per hour. I will pay him full price, just cannot figure it out. I will see him tomorrow and talk. He first mentioned 1900 euro but after a lengthy shocked silence on my part changed to 1600 but then left in a hurry so I couldn't talk to him. The sums don't add up no matter how you look at them.

the_pen_turner

whats wrong with the numbers. if that's his piece per hour then that's what it is. find someone cheaper. he is charging what he can get. that is proper business sences. his overhead costs are probably fairly high

Username John

the_pen_turner wrote: »

whats wrong with the numbers. if that's his piece per hour then that's what it is. find someone cheaper. he is charging what he can get. that is proper business sences. his overhead costs are probably fairly high

60euro per hour
For 19 hours
= 1140
+ 100 delivery
=1240
+ 13.5% VAT
= ~1400euro

Not 1600euro

I think he is well within his right to ask the breakdown of the 1600, given he was told 60euro per hour and the job took 19hours...

tomwaterford

Username John wrote: »

60euro per hour
For 19 hours
= 1140
+ 100 delivery
=1240
+ 13.5% VAT
= ~1400euro

Not 1600euro

I think he is well within his right to ask the breakdown of the 1600, given he was told 60euro per hour and the job took 19hours...

Can't argue with numbers....they never lie

the_pen_turner

Username John wrote: »

60euro per hour
For 19 hours
= 1140
+ 100 delivery
=1240
+ 13.5% VAT
= ~1400euro

Not 1600euro

I think he is well within his right to ask the breakdown of the 1600, given he was told 60euro per hour and the job took 19hours...

sorry I didn't get the calculator out.
you are perfectly entitled to ask why 19 hours at 60/hr is 1400 and not 1600.

Grueller

tomwaterford wrote: »

If twas me coming up againest like of this id charge e150 to move the digger on the bill

You know hes going charging x for something and then you wait until your going paying him and has the job done to haggle/beat him down on that price,

Its pure wrong,if you agree a price,pay the man or get someone else whos cheaper

I am only speculating here, but to me it seems like the charge is a surprise and wasn't agreed before.
This man is probably digging his own grave in this area. From €38 cash up to €60 + VAT is some jump in fairness.

tomwaterford

Grueller wrote: »

I am only speculating here, but to me it seems like the charge is a surprise and wasn't agreed before.
This man is probably digging his own grave in this area. From €38 cash up to €60 + VAT is some jump in fairness.

Yes gone up a size in machine and can rightly charge extra for increased output??
-hardly an outrageous concept??

Not many lads with 20 tons out there

Though tbf I'd not be inclined to pay to transport it,that's his own issue

But of you've agreed to pay him for it before the job,it's beyond reprehemsible to haggle on an agreed price afterwards imo

ganmo

tomwaterford wrote: »

Can't argue with numbers....they never lie

That's statistics job

ml100

Had the same thing happen here a few years ago with a local guy doing drainage, gave an estimate x hours, y meters of pipe, I wasn't here myself when he did it, arrived with the bill for the original estimate even though I knew he didn't spend the time he estimated (arrived after I went to work and was gone before I got back) and after measuring the ground where the pipes went, it was much less than estimated, I paid him in full but he will never work here again, I had to get someone to do a proper job on it a few years later and he was close to half the price!

Who2

1600 is purely taking the piss. was there a need for a 20 ton, unless there was serious moving to be done i cant see why your average 12 ton wouldnt do. I work in construction and have never heard of being charged for moving a digger. 35-45 per hour is the run for reasonable to good machine drivers and machine, with no transport costs. Theres machines available all over the country within short distances so i cant see it being that much hassle. He has to load it anyway to move it onto the next job regardless.

johney

thanks lads,
I agreed and I will pay him in full. For his work, transportation and time. Will not be tipping this time round so do not think it fair to be asked to pay for time he was not here. Especially at that price. I agree it was a shock and a 13 tonne would have done the job perfectly and I had quotes for same. But I had him before and was happy with him so had him back. Didn't know he had the bigger machine and he never said.Last time his hours were very irregular. Comings and goings at all hours and leaving in the middle of the day over for over an hour. Very late starts and early finishes. Even left one day driving digger along road and did a quick job for neighbour on my time. Didn't know about it till few months later when neighbour told me. But I am easy going and honestly didn't mind all that. I didn't question his fee when he asked it. But it made me wonder how good of a timekeeper is he?Same thing this time. Digger here 5 days but not much work done. I am now here all the time, so I kept a time schedule of working hours. Which leads me to believe he might not know his own worked hours. I will not be haggling. I am happy to pay a man for a job well done. I will be paying him for hours worked.

Bass Reeves

johney wrote: »

thanks folks for the replies,

I am not arguing the payment of the 100 euro. I was just disappointed that after making me wait so long until he was close, he could have shared the digger move cost. I am just trying to figure out where his sum of 1600 came from after 18 1/2 hours work at a price of 60 per hour. I will pay him full price, just cannot figure it out. I will see him tomorrow and talk. He first mentioned 1900 euro but after a lengthy shocked silence on my part changed to 1600 but then left in a hurry so I couldn't talk to him. The sums don't add up no matter how you look at them.

If he dropped from 1900 to 1600 He was taking the p!ss there fore I be looking for him to itemise the bill as below and making sure I would get a vat reciept as he might b not want to give you that either

Username John wrote: »

60euro per hour
For 19 hours
= 1140
+ 100 delivery
=1240
+ 13.5% VAT
= ~1400euro

Not 1600euro

I think he is well within his right to ask the breakdown of the 1600, given he was told 60euro per hour and the job took 19hours...

The calculator never lies unless the data going in is wrong.

johney wrote: »

thanks lads,
I agreed and I will pay him in full. For his work, transportation and time. Will not be tipping this time round so do not think it fair to be asked to pay for time he was not here. Especially at that price. I agree it was a shock and a 13 tonne would have done the job perfectly and I had quotes for same. But I had him before and was happy with him so had him back. Didn't know he had the bigger machine and he never said.Last time his hours were very irregular. Comings and goings at all hours and leaving in the middle of the day over for over an hour. Very late starts and early finishes. Even left one day driving digger along road and did a quick job for neighbour on my time. Didn't know about it till few months later when neighbour told me. But I am easy going and honestly didn't mind all that. I didn't question his fee when he asked it. But it made me wonder how good of a timekeeper is he?Same thing this time. Digger here 5 days but not much work done. I am now here all the time, so I kept a time schedule of working hours. Which leads me to believe he might not know his own worked hours. I will not be haggling. I am happy to pay a man for a job well done. I will be paying him for hours worked.

If he bough at 21 ton digger to do what is smaller digger work I be having it out with him. Not sure if I would pay the movement charge either. Never got charge for movement on a digger sub 15 ton. The reason that bigger digger charge a movement charge in theory they are supposed to notify the council as they are wider than 8' as far as i know

I really hate digger drivers that disappear on and off and then charge you for missing hours. I not be inclined to get him again and let him know same. I say to him about the incident with neighbour as well. I start at 1350 and work from there. Know one or two digger drivers that work like this. If he got away with the 1900 euro he was charging you for 27 hours excluding the movement charge.

Say he did not work the 19 hours but 14-16 hours then orginally he was trying to charging you for 10 hours extra. 10 hours on a digger like with out diesel or other associated costs is 30 hours at 20 euro/hour. As well it sounds like your work was 40 euro/hour work in a smaller digger. Maybe a 1000 euro job in reality. Remember he knew that his digger was a bigger machine and had a duty to inform you of the higher charge and higher output. I have it out with him

sea12

johney wrote: »

thanks lads,
I agreed and I will pay him in full. For his work, transportation and time. Will not be tipping this time round so do not think it fair to be asked to pay for time he was not here. Especially at that price. I agree it was a shock and a 13 tonne would have done the job perfectly and I had quotes for same. But I had him before and was happy with him so had him back. Didn't know he had the bigger machine and he never said.Last time his hours were very irregular. Comings and goings at all hours and leaving in the middle of the day over for over an hour. Very late starts and early finishes. Even left one day driving digger along road and did a quick job for neighbour on my time. Didn't know about it till few months later when neighbour told me. But I am easy going and honestly didn't mind all that. I didn't question his fee when he asked it. But it made me wonder how good of a timekeeper is he?Same thing this time. Digger here 5 days but not much work done. I am now here all the time, so I kept a time schedule of working hours. Which leads me to believe he might not know his own worked hours. I will not be haggling. I am happy to pay a man for a job well done. I will be paying him for hours worked.

Hi Johney at the end of the day it's your money and you might not like taking on the person. Perhaps your not an argumentive person. But I think the driver knows this too. To be honest it sounds like your taken for s ride. I would ask home for an itemised bill. Make sure he gives you a vat receipt and don't let him fob him off with I don't have the book with me and I'll pop it in the post to you.

Don't be afraid of arguing with him. He will respect you all the more. As a neighbour says here I'd rather be known as a bollox than lads laughing at you.

Just my thoughts. As I said its ure money and maybe a couple hundred is not worth the Afro to you

relax carry on

Regarding the VAT issue, it's 13.5% if supplied with an operator. It's standard rate if just the machine.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/vat/vat-on-services/exceptions-to-the-general-place-of-supply-rules-for-services/vat-and-hiring-services/hiring-or-leasing-of-plant-and-machinery.aspx

Your contractor should provide you with a valid VAT invoice showing you his vat workings.

Alucan

Grueller wrote:

Either she is a biiiiig digger or the driver is riding you I think. 21 tonne machine with a genius around here driving it, plus a tractor, stonecart and a second man laying pipes is €60 per hour including VAT.

He's not much of a genius if he's working for that money