Car(tel) Insurance

Samuel T. Cogley

Fantastic to see that fraudulent claims and legal costs are entirely the reason for increased insurance premiums and not a wholesale smoke and mirrors misdirection the vast majority of people bought into, despite independent reports to the contrary.

Oh wait...

http://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/driver-database-at-heart-of-major-insurance-probe-after-dawn-raids-35896817.html

Let's not forget though that the investigation is still underway and that no conclusions whatsoever can be drawn at the moment, maybe this was done just for the craic.

The_Valeyard

I do like your thread title.

MarkR

I thought cartell were doing insurance...

Lux23

It is an investigation into the industry blocking new entrants and doesn't appear to be about pricing. Although if a challenger company entered the company clearly some would follow price-wise.

And sometimes these things never come to anything so I wouldn't hold your breath.

Samuel T. Cogley

Lux23 wrote: »

It is an investigation into the industry blocking new entrants and doesn't appear to be about pricing. Although if a challenger company entered the company clearly some would follow price-wise.

And sometimes these things never come to anything so I wouldn't hold your breath.

The raids were prompted by allegations that motor insurers in this country are operating a cartel by price-fixing.

So I believe the main thrust is blocking new entrants, but price fixing - the good old fashioned direct kind - does seem to be in play.

SEPT 23 1989

Hopefully outsiders will have a look the legal profession next

Samuel T. Cogley

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Hopefully outsiders will have a look the legal profession next

They already have during the bail-out and if changes were suggested in regard to not one institution control each profession. However given there is no shortage of competition the Law Society and Kings Inns never had a challenger for their respective legal professionals.

As a client, you are more than entitled to say - to your chosen solicitor -, please find me a JC who's just qualified who'll work for peanuts please. Just as you're entitled to buy a Fiat Punto rather than a BMW 5 series. Or you might say get me the best barrister for X case at which point they will charge a fee consummate with the demand they have from clients, same for the best electricians, plumbers and hookers.

As for the laws actually being enforced, you have a constant franchise to change those with your vote through the legislature.

Hector Bellend

"I had a nice bit of an aul tip"

Richard Hillman

Hopefully Gay Byrne gets investigated too. He was on a one man crusade to get young people off the road/drive up their insurance.

Yakult

If guilty, refunds on the way I suppose?

Dirty bastards.

John108679908

The RSA and Insurance companies are trying to force young people out of the country, because they want a nice little retirement village for the rich peoples and the new Irish Muslims.
Seriuosly though, i went to California and got a license all in one day, told them i had irish licence- they said we'll send out a tester and 5mins later had a full driving licence.
They don't want young working class men or women in this country-because they would vote in a nationalistic way and they'd be out on their asses.
The Parasite class rules this country, real jobs are blocklayers, carpenters, mechanics, van drivers, farmers, Polish women in miniskirts.,

Liam McPoyle

I had an interesting conversation during the week.

A guy wrote in about his policy and the hike in premiums.

He has been with our company since 02 so it gave a brilliant insight into the prices of the last 15 years.

He is over 50, full licence and no claims.

Driving a mid range saloon car.

When he joined our company in 02 he had full licence and full NCD.

He paid €1220 for comp.

The following year around €1100.

Then around €1000.

The premiums kept reducing year on year until they reached €440 towards the end of the 00s.

Since then they have increased year on year and his premium this year is €850.

It was an interesting exercise because for nearly half the time he was with us he paid more than his renewal this year.

He was flabbergasted to hear what he had paid for the first 4 or 5 years and didn't believe me until i sent him the schedules for each year.

The point is that people seem to forget that in the not too distant past many of them were paying substantially more than they are now.

Consumers got spoiled by the ludicrous prices perpetuated by the likes of 123, Quinn and Setanta so in reality, what alot of people are paying nowadays is actually fairly keen when you factor in pricing over the last 20 years

topper75

Fraudulent claims is the cause, is it.

So they would be contested, right?

I mean they wouldn't just pay out without contest and lump it on honest people?

ChikiChiki

People tend not to kick up a fuss about such things and thus are very easily ripped off in Ireland. Its sad but true. Please look at the legal profession next, where very obvious cartel activity exists.

Anyway my point is most of the populace are too apathetic towards such matters. Anyone who voices dissent is labled a lunatic when in fact their questioning has merit. Wake up.

Boggy Turf

The utter corruption of Ireland continues unabated with the blessing of the corrupt Gardai and corrupt politicians.

Boggles

Rod Munch wrote: »

I had an interesting conversation during the week.

A guy wrote in about his policy and the hike in premiums.

He has been with our company since 02 so it gave a brilliant insight into the prices of the last 15 years.

He is over 50, full licence and no claims.

Driving a mid range saloon car.

When he joined our company in 02 he had full licence and full NCD.

He paid €1220 for comp.

The following year around €1100.

Then around €1000.

The premiums kept reducing year on year until they reached €440 towards the end of the 00s.

Since then they have increased year on year and his premium this year is €850.

It was an interesting exercise because for nearly half the time he was with us he paid more than his renewal this year.

He was flabbergasted to hear what he had paid for the first 4 or 5 years and didn't believe me until i sent him the schedules for each year.

The point is that people seem to forget that in the not too distant past many of them were paying substantially more than they are now.

Consumers got spoiled by the ludicrous prices perpetuated by the likes of 123, Quinn and Setanta so in reality, what alot of people are paying nowadays is actually fairly keen when you factor in pricing over the last 20 years

He didn't go to 123, Quinn or Setanta. He stayed with your company. How exactly was he spoiled? Seems like he is being shafted for being a loyal customer. How he is being proportioned blame is pretty bizarre.

Liam McPoyle

Boggles wrote: »

He didn't go to 123, Quinn or Setanta. He stayed with your company. How exactly was he spoiled? Seems like he is being shafted for being a loyal customer. How he is being proportioned blame is pretty bizarre.

Way to COMPLETELY miss my point.

Prices in the market were dictated by the likes of 123, Setanta and Quinn dramatically cutting rates to unsafe and unsustainable levels.

All other insurers were forced to reduce their rates to unsafe and unsustainable levels to retain their market share.

Setanta went tits up.

So did Quinn (though this had as much to do with their other dealings as anything)

123 had to get €200,000,000 from RSA to plug a hole in their claims reserves.

I'm curious to know how a customer paying less for a product / service today than they paid 15 years ago is shafting them.

Are you paying less for petrol, clothes, food, etc today than you were 15 years ago?

If not, are you being shafted by all the providers of those goods / services?

Boggles

Rod Munch wrote: »

All other insurers were forced to reduce their rates to unsafe and unsustainable levels to retain their market share.

Again, how is that the fault of a loyal customer to your company?

Did your company suffer major losses or did they post any profit during that time?

Motor insurance is compulsory, i.e illegal not to have. IF the insurance companies fooked up that sort of titled market, that isn't the consumers fault.

By the way.

Lots of things are far cheaper now than they were 15 years ago.

Wibbs

Over the same period(longer actually) on the same car, my insurance stayed pretty much the same(within a range of fifty quid), no mid boom reduction, but in the last three years? It near tripled. Actually more like quadrupled if I had stayed with the same broker(a broker who I was loyal to since they opened their doors back in the late 80's. My customer number was 01).

Though I suppose because mine is one of those cars that apparently offends the baby Jesus and interferes with farmyard animals, none of the daftly dodgy(as opposed to kinda dodgy) insurance companies that were underselling would touch me at the time.

Dravokivich

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

So I believe the main thrust is blocking new entrants, but price fixing - the good old fashioned direct kind - does seem to be in play.

Wibbs

Boggles wrote: »

Motor insurance is compulsory, i.e illegal not to have. IF the insurance companies fooked up that sort of titled market, that isn't the consumers fault.

Nope it's not, but we will continue to pay for financial institution's mistakes. Again.

And lest the old excuse of "massive claim costs" is rolled out, as it always is. Let's have an oul look at that shall we...

I wrote this on another thread hereabouts: Why has the insurance industry been so lackadaisical in fighting and lobbying hard to reduce these figures? If my business was running at such a loss and the main cause was one factor, I'd sure as hell be fighting to remove that factor. Seems a bit puzzling.

This "compo culture" has long been a concern. I remember it being talked about and used as an excuse back in the 1980's, so it's not as if this is a new thing.

Then there's the transparency over all this. Let's go back a year ago.

In a hard-hitting report, the Joint Committee on Finance said the motor insurance industry had deliberately been hiding key information from public view and engaging in cartel-like behaviour. The report said that all witnesses who appeared before the committee – except for the insurance industry itself – had highlighted the absence of data-sharing and a complete absence of transparency across the sector as a serious problem. The absence of this information meant it was impossible to get to the root cause of motor insurance price increases, the committee said.

"Cartel-like behaviour" according to an Oireachtas committee. As for their constant whinge about "compo culture";

The report pointed out that only 20 per cent of insurance claims are processed through the Personal Injuries Assessment Board (PIAB) with a further 10 per cent going through the courts. For both of those routes there is full transparency . . . however the remaining 70 per cent of claims are settled privately by insurers [and] there is no visibility or transparency whatsoever about these claims,” the report said, The committee said consumers have “effectively been told to accept these exorbitant increases without any explanation. The insurance industry says that it is the result of an increase in legal costs and compensation awards but will not supply supporting evidence for verification.”

Now take that in folks. 70% of their payout figures are hidden. If they were serious about stopping this payout madness they could illustrate that perfectly if they released out of court settlements figures and how much less costly they were. If Case A of whiplash going through the courts got 30,000 and Case B settling on the steps of said courts received 5,000, it would put major pressure on the government and the legal sector to explain such a disparity. Very puzzling that they don't. Hmmm. Funny that they don't. Well it doesn't suit them to do so. I would bet the farm it would show that the figures they pay out are less than they claim.

The report also suggested another cause of the spikes in the cost of motor insurance – which have seen some people’s premiums go up by over 100 per cent in just two years – was because insurance companies have been using their motor insurance books to bolster shortfalls in investment income in other areas. “From around 2012/2013, investment income dried up,” the report said. “Guaranteed returns of 4 per cent on government bonds disappeared. Insurance companies rushed to plug gaping holes by burning through their capital reserves.

NB "investment income dried up". It's easy to blame idiocy like Quinn's, but they were all at it to some degree and again we have to pay the price for a legal requirement. It is beyond scandalous that this industry is so opaque on this particular matter. That's before we get to the cartel stuff. Never mind the suspicion they're keeping completion out of the market(internally and external), that so many also "magically" decided to say cars over a certain age(10 years, but trust me that will contract further) virtually the same day, yet won't release the full figures showing that this segment actually costs more.

Transparency my arse and now both our own gov agencies and the EU are finally looking into it. Clearly they see shenanigans. Proving it will be the thing though and even if proved what bet would you take out that anything concrete will actually happen?

osarusan

Rod Munch wrote: »

I'm curious to know how a customer paying less for a product / service today than they paid 15 years ago is shafting them.

By the same token, I'm curious to know how a customer paying approximately 95% more for a product / service today than they paid 7 years ago isn't shafting them.

Are you paying 95% more for petrol, clothes, food, etc today than you were 7 years ago?

Liam McPoyle

osarusan wrote: »

By the same token, I'm curious to know how a customer paying approximately 95% more for a product / service today than they paid 7 years ago isn't shafting them.

Are you paying 95% more for petrol, clothes, food, etc today than you were 7 years ago?

Nope.

But thats because the company's that make the products I use have not had to pay out billions of Euro from their income to people that buy or use their products.

osarusan

Rod Munch wrote: »

Nope.

But thats because the company's that make the products I use have not had to pay out billions of Euro from their income to people that buy or use their products.

Why did you use them as a comparison then?

Wibbs

Rod Munch wrote: »

Nope.

But thats because the company's that make the products I use have not had to pay out billions of Euro from their income to people that buy or use their products.

So entirely avoiding the whole bad investments by insurance companies part then? And the lack of transparency. And the "cartel-like behaviour" as reported by a government investigation over a year ago and the latest government and EU investigations culminating in early morning raids on insurance company premises? Ah yea, defo all the motorist's fault. Here's my smily face. :rolleyes:

Akrasia

Boggles wrote: »

He didn't go to 123, Quinn or Setanta. He stayed with your company. How exactly was he spoiled? Seems like he is being shafted for being a loyal customer. How he is being proportioned blame is pretty bizarre.

Yep. The poor fella has paid out about 12k in premiums to this company, and much more to his previous insurers and never made a claim, but his premiums are going up despite the fact that road deaths are a 3rd of what they used to be, and the number of serious injuries are way down.

xckjoo

Rod Munch wrote: »

Nope.

But thats because the company's that make the products I use have not had to pay out billions of Euro from their income to people that buy or use their products.

You sure about that?
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/06/business/bp-settlement-in-gulf-oil-spill-is-raised-to-20-8-billion.html

Cupatae

So to get to the long and short of it... will insurance prices go down?

rizzee

My renewal is next week I wonder if I mentioned thus would they knock a few more quid off

Samuel T. Cogley

Cupatae wrote: »

So to get to the long and short of it... will insurance prices go down?

Yes and it was inevitable they would once certain factors where no longer in play. Hopefully, but I'm not holding my breath, this investigation will quicken the pace.

One has to then ask the question if legal fees and fraudulent claims are such a massive part of the problem, and the main focus of blame that the insurance companies would like the punter to look at, how can there be this cyclical market? More is at play here.

Kivaro

Wibbs wrote: »

Though I suppose because mine is one of those cars that apparently offends the baby Jesus and interferes with farmyard animals, none of the daftly dodgy(as opposed to kinda dodgy) insurance companies that were underselling would touch me at the time.

Must be some exhaust pipe on your car Wibbs.

Antar Bolaeisk

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

Yes and it was inevitable they would once certain factors where no longer in play. Hopefully, but I'm not holding my breath, this investigation will quicken the pace.

One has to then ask the question if legal fees and fraudulent claims are such a massive part of the problem, and the main focus of blame that the insurance companies would like the punter to look at, how can there be this cyclical market? More is at play here.

Fees will probably increase to cover all the fines levied against the involved companies and to pay for the ensuing legal challenges.

ohnonotgmail

Wasn't it revealed that the investigation is actually to do with insurance for hauliers and is nothing to do with private car insurance?

Samuel T. Cogley

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

Wasn't it revealed that the investigation is actually to do with insurance for hauliers and is nothing to do with private car insurance?

It's not entirely clear yet apart from that haulage is one area and new entrants (to all insurance) is another.

Separately, the European Commission raided the offices of Insurance Ireland on Tuesday as it assesses concerns over access to two databases used by insurers in the Republic. This is believed to have been on foot of a complaint or series of complaints from would-be new entrants to the market about their ability to tap into information on these systems.

It maybe that Lux called this one correctly, but of course new entrants would mean more competition, however one can almost see why they'd try and block new entrants after the last price war fiasco which is actually what's been leading to higher premiums in the main.

Lux23

Wibbs wrote: »

So entirely avoiding the whole bad investments by insurance companies part then? And the lack of transparency. And the "cartel-like behaviour" as reported by a government investigation over a year ago and the latest government and EU investigations culminating in early morning raids on insurance company premises? Ah yea, defo all the motorist's fault. Here's my smily face. :rolleyes:

One thing I am sorry to point out is that Government investigation comment will tell you nothing - the TD who said that in the report has no idea what cartel is. If they did, they wouldn't say cartel-like!

John108679908

Has anyone ever looked at the insurance system in Australia?
The state in Australia is obliged to provide car insurance to it's citizens.
Someone told me last week that he was paying 150euro every year for car insurance. Came back from Australia and because he told them he was abroad they quoted him 5000, said he was probably going to go back there due to that crap.
The permanent government ie county council and co. don't want a large working class population in this country, simply because they'd be hung from lamposts, like they were in Russia during the revolution.
I have farmers telling me that they're being asked for 15,000 by the planning authority just to have an extra entrance onto their farms.
They're also being charged 1000euro's for having an extra car on their property.
People are being extorted for money that they have worked quite hard for.

Samuel T. Cogley

John108679908 wrote: »

Has anyone ever looked at the insurance system in Australia?
The state in Australia is obliged to provide car insurance to it's citizens.
Someone told me last week that he was paying 150euro every year for car insurance. Came back from Australia and because he told them he was abroad they quoted him 5000, said he was probably going to go back there due to that crap.
The permanent government ie county council and co. don't want a large working class population in this country, simply because they'd be hung from lamposts, like they were in Russia during the revolution.
I have farmers telling me that they're being asked for 15,000 by the planning authority just to have an extra entrance onto their farms.
They're also being charged 1000euro's for having an extra car on their property.
People are being extorted for money that they have worked quite hard for.

Translation: Perfectly sensible solution put forward by the New Zealanders I believe, but I take your word for it that it's also done in Aus - the State picks up the tab for compensation for run of the mill matters, no doubt funded by the insurance companies - however the large one off payouts (and temptation for fraud) are reduced/removed.

The rest though was quite an odd political rant.