Fire safety

Johnyu

What if the landlord did not install fire alarm, fire blanket and emergency lighting or emergency evacuation plan in the building/house? and the house has been damaged by fire, and caused tenants so much inconvenience? Is landlord responsible for paying the tenants relocation?

Gumbo

Johnyu wrote: »

What if the landlord did not install fire alarm, fire blanket and emergency lighting or emergency evacuation plan in the building/house? and the house has been damaged by fire, and caused tenants so much inconvenience? Is landlord responsible for paying the tenants relocation?

A house is not required to have emergency lighting or a fire alarm system.

Smoke detectors yes.
Blanket yes.
Extinguisher yes.

Johnyu

kceire wrote: »

A house is not required to have emergency lighting or a fire alarm system.

Smoke detectors yes.
Blanket yes.
Extinguisher yes.

thanks a lot.

GGTrek

kceire wrote: »

Johnyu wrote: »

What if the landlord did not install fire alarm, fire blanket and emergency lighting or emergency evacuation plan in the building/house? and the house has been damaged by fire, and caused tenants so much inconvenience? Is landlord responsible for paying the tenants relocation?

A house is not required to have emergency lighting or a fire alarm system.

Smoke detectors yes.
Blanket yes.
Extinguisher yes.

A rented house (not an apartment inside a multi-unit dwelling which is subject to further bulding regs at the time it was built) should comply with section 10 of this regulation:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2017/si/17/made/en/print
I underlined what is required for a house that is not part of a MUD (notice that section 10(7) defines what a multi-unit dwelling is):
 10. (1) Each house shall contain a suitable self-contained fire detection and alarm system.
       
(2) Each house shall contain a suitably located fire blanket.

(3) Each self-contained house in a multi-unit building shall contain a suitable fire detection and alarm system and an emergency evacuation plan.
       
(4) A suitable fire detection and alarm system shall be provided in common areas within a multi-unit building.

(5) Emergency lighting shall be provided in all common areas within a multi-unit building.
       
(6) Fire detection and alarm systems and emergency lighting systems required under Regulation 10(4) and 10(5) shall be maintained in accordance with current standards.

(7) In this Regulation:

“current standards” means standards produced by the National Standards Authority of Ireland for Fire Detection and Fire Alarm Systems in Buildings and for Emergency Lighting;
       
“multi-unit building” means a building that contains 2 or more houses that share a common access.

As you can see there is no requirement for a fire extinguisher inside a house that is not a MUD (unless required by building regs at the time it was built or specific conditions in the planning permission).
The Irish govvie to worsen the situation with vaguely worded regs (they love that, High Court judges have already said various times that rental regulations are written in a vague and confusing and complex manner) under section 6(6) (heating ) also says:
"(6) Each house shall contain, where necessary, suitably located devices for the detection and alarm of carbon monoxide."
It really gives (way too) ample discretion to the zealousness of the Council Inspector. I know a few DCC inspectors, they are real zealous penpushers on a power trip when the job is easy and this new additional regulation does not bode well at all since a zealous inspector will waste a lot of time for unnecessary things, like a carbon monoxide alarm when there is no gas heating and there are already heat and smoke detectors, but he/she will overlook intentional fires lighted on the public road/pavement, since prosecuting these requires hard investigative work which neither Garda, nor DCC inspectors have time for.

GGTrek

Finally answering the OP question: landlord is not responsible to pay tenants relocation costs if the fire was not caused by him.

Paulw

Johnyu wrote: »

What if the landlord did not...... or emergency evacuation plan in the building/house?

It is YOUR responsibility to come up with an evacuation plan, not the responsibility of a landlord/management company. You must come up with your own plan that will work for you and your family.

In a multi-unit building, there must be an evacuation guide, showing exits, but the whole plan for evacuation is yours.

Johnyu

Paulw wrote: »

It is YOUR responsibility to come up with an evacuation plan, not the responsibility of a landlord/management company. You must come up with your own plan that will work for you and your family.

In a multi-unit building, there must be an evacuation guide, showing exits, but the whole plan for evacuation is yours.

Thank you very much. would that be landlord's responsibility if the smoke detector/alarm, blanket and extinguisher were not installed, and the house was damaged by fire? can tenants claim anything?

GGTrek

Johnyu wrote: »

Paulw wrote: »

It is YOUR responsibility to come up with an evacuation plan, not the responsibility of a landlord/management company. You must come up with your own plan that will work for you and your family.

In a multi-unit building, there must be an evacuation guide, showing exits, but the whole plan for evacuation is yours.

Thank you very much. would that be landlord's responsibility if the smoke detector/alarm, blanket and extinguisher were not installed, and the house was damaged by fire?  can tenants claim anything?

Wasn't my answer clear enough? Did the landlord cause the fire? Was some person injured? Was some of your content burned and did you have an insurance on your own content?
Landlord liability is not unlimited as you think, if the landlord did not cause the fire (what caused the fire BTW?), no person was injured but your own content was burned and you had no insurance on your content, then tough luck on your claim.

Johnyu

GGTrek wrote: »

Wasn't my answer clear enough? Did the landlord cause the fire? Was some person injured? Was some of your content burned and did you have an insurance on your own content?
Landlord liability is not unlimited as you think, if the landlord did not cause the fire (what caused the fire BTW?), no person was injured but your own content was burned and you had no insurance on your content, then tough luck on your claim.

thank you for telling the information.

davindub

GGTrek wrote: »

Wasn't my answer clear enough? Did the landlord cause the fire? Was some person injured? Was some of your content burned and did you have an insurance on your own content?
Landlord liability is not unlimited as you think, if the landlord did not cause the fire (what caused the fire BTW?), no person was injured but your own content was burned and you had no insurance on your content, then tough luck on your claim.

It was clearly wrong, so why did you answer it BTW?

Whether the landlord went around with a box of matches or not is irrelevant to breach of duty of care which includes actions well beyond the standard of regulations and best practices, it includes addressing specific risks in the property.

dennyk

The landlord isn't required to supply a fire extinguisher, only working smoke alarms and a fire blanket. It is a good idea to have a fire extinguisher regardless, so you should buy your own if your landlord did not provide one.

Smoke alarms do not prevent fire damage; they are there to protect the safety of the occupants by alerting them to a fire in time to evacuate. If a tenant was injured or killed in a fire due to lack of functioning smoke alarms, the landlord could certainly bear legal responsibility, but any property damage would likely be considered unrelated.

The landlord is not obligated to provide you with alternative accommodation if the property becomes uninhabitable due to damage not caused by the landlord, unless you have a lease agreement that says otherwise; it basically just means the tenancy is ended immediately. You and your landlord could come to some agreement on your own about alternative accommodations or you moving back in after the damage is repaired, and of course they cannot continue collecting rent from you for the damaged property and would need to refund any rent you already paid for the period the property is uninhabitable. They would also need to return your deposit, unless you caused the fire and they can legally withhold it to cover repairs.

The landlord is not responsible for damage to your personal belongings in the home. All tenants should purchase renter's insurance to cover replacement or repair of their own belongings in the event of fire, theft, flooding, etc. Renter's insurance will not cover the property itself or any furnishings, etc. owned by the landlord; the landlord is responsible for insuring those items. If the tenant's actions caused the damage, it's possible the landlord's insurance may come after them for the costs, in which case the tenant's renter's insurance might cover them if it includes liability coverage and their actions did not void said coverage (e.g. no insurance policy will cover your own criminal actions such as arson).

davindub

dennyk wrote: »

The landlord isn't required to supply a fire extinguisher, only working smoke alarms and a fire blanket. It is a good idea to have a fire extinguisher regardless, so you should buy your own if your landlord did not provide one.

Smoke alarms do not prevent fire damage; they are there to protect the safety of the occupants by alerting them to a fire in time to evacuate. If a tenant was injured or killed in a fire due to lack of functioning smoke alarms, the landlord could certainly bear legal responsibility, but any property damage would likely be considered unrelated.

The landlord is not obligated to provide you with alternative accommodation if the property becomes uninhabitable due to damage not caused by the landlord, unless you have a lease agreement that says otherwise; it basically just means the tenancy is ended immediately. You and your landlord could come to some agreement on your own about alternative accommodations or you moving back in after the damage is repaired, and of course they cannot continue collecting rent from you for the damaged property and would need to refund any rent you already paid for the period the property is uninhabitable. They would also need to return your deposit, unless you caused the fire and they can legally withhold it to cover repairs.

The landlord is not responsible for damage to your personal belongings in the home. All tenants should purchase renter's insurance to cover replacement or repair of their own belongings in the event of fire, theft, flooding, etc. Renter's insurance will not cover the property itself or any furnishings, etc. owned by the landlord; the landlord is responsible for insuring those items. If the tenant's actions caused the damage, it's possible the landlord's insurance may come after them for the costs, in which case the tenant's renter's insurance might cover them if it includes liability coverage and their actions did not void said coverage (e.g. no insurance policy will cover your own criminal actions such as arson).

I would disagree regarding possessions, if the fire could have been prevented from spreading further by a fire blanket, etc, you can establish causation to any property lost, costs incurred, etc.

dennyk

davindub wrote: »

I would disagree regarding possessions, if the fire could have been prevented from spreading further by a fire blanket, etc, you can establish causation to any property lost, costs incurred, etc.

That would no doubt end up being a long court battle in most cases, with no guarantee of success; it would depend on so many variables that there's no way to predict a likely outcome. If it's to be fought, better for it to be between the tenant's insurance company and the landlord. Yet another reason why you should always, always, always have insurance!

Tow

davindub wrote: »

I would disagree regarding possessions, if the fire could have been prevented from spreading further by a fire blanket, etc, you can establish causation to any property lost, costs incurred, etc.

Tenants require their own insurance, if they want their contents etc covered.

Gumbo

davindub wrote: »

I would disagree regarding possessions, if the fire could have been prevented from spreading further by a fire blanket, etc, you can establish causation to any property lost, costs incurred, etc.

Get out
Get the fire brigade out
And stay out.


Don't be faffing about with a blanket on a fire that has the potential to kill you. I say that as a landlord who has provided a blanket (because in legally obliged to) and also an extinguisher.

Insurance is there for a reason but It is for the property damage. The tennant should have their own contents insurance regardless.

dennyk

Fire blankets and extinguishers are basically there to keep a small "oops" in the kitchen from becoming an actual fire. If your greasy pan or your kitchen bin or something else that's entirely self-contained catches fire, then those tools can often put it out before it spreads. If anything else in the house is burning, then you don't try to fight it, just get out and call emergency services (in that order).

davindub

kceire wrote: »

Get out
Get the fire brigade out
And stay out.


Don't be faffing about with a blanket on a fire that has the potential to kill you. I say that as a landlord who has provided a blanket (because in legally obliged to) and also an extinguisher.

Insurance is there for a reason but It is for the property damage. The tennant should have their own contents insurance regardless.

I wasn't advocating fighting a fire where your life is at stake?

But anyway ignoring the practicality of fire blankets, etc, it was an example of how causation from a breach of duty of care could lead to successful claims for a tenants personal property. It is not specifically fire related either, same principle if a sharp tile causes damage to property, but for the oversight, the property would not have been damaged etc.

davindub

dennyk wrote: »

That would no doubt end up being a long court battle in most cases, with no guarantee of success; it would depend on so many variables that there's no way to predict a likely outcome. If it's to be fought, better for it to be between the tenant's insurance company and the landlord. Yet another reason why you should always, always, always have insurance!

Ah not really, unless there was unusually expensive property involved, its going to be district court, under the insurance excess and less than the cost of legal representation. It will be state your damages and the judge will assess each on its merits.