Recall .... aaargh!!!

volchitsa

Hi all,
I'm sure this is something of a regular subject but I can't see any recent ones so thought it may be better to start a new one:

Our 18 month old sheepdog is fantastic, on the whole, full of energy and with a great sense of humour, but her sense of play can make her a bit of a handful at times, and we've noticed that while she mostly comes very willingly, there are times when she's begun to just completely ignore us because she's got something better to do, and of course if we go after her, then it immediately becomes a game, which makes it hard to handle.

I'm not sure what to do - she never goes far, and mostly she'll usually come straight back out, so she's not completely disobedient.

But for ex, yesterday I took her for a walk along a track, she ran about a good bit off leash, chased ball, ran after a couple of pigeons etc, basically a decent walk, and then when we got back to the car, instead of following me the last 50m to the carpark, she wandered off up the track in the other direction, where we hadn't been. She went round the corner out of sight, despite me calling her, and then after a good few minutes, just as I started to walk up the track to get her, she came racing down towards me all happy to see me! 😡

What do I do? She wasn't in any danger, she wasn't gone far, but and she came back of her own accord (I wouldn't have a chance of catching her TBH!) so if I scold her at that stage will that not be pointless? But I'm sure she knows well what she's doing.

Or else at night, when the evenings are fine, she goes out for a pee and then doesn't want to come back in (I can't just leave her because then she barks later on and would disturb the neighbours) - but she goes over to her kennel, and just looks at us, and won't come in. She knows we're calling her but she just doesn't come. But again if we go to her she just takes it as a game.

Help!! What are we doing wrong?

Thanks.

muddypaws

Well done for not scolding her, not matter how frustrating it is, and how long it takes them to come back, if a dog comes back, scolding them will only help to make them not come back in the future, why should they, if they will be told off.

You need to make coming back to you, or coming in in the evening the best thing in the whole world, so take some special treats with you on walks, that she only gets when she comes back to you, cheese, chicken, ham etc. But, I would also practice calling her back on the walks, giving her the treat, then letting her go again, so that she doesn't also learn that coming back means the fun is finished, and she's going home. Do this even where you leave the car, get back to it, call her, reward, and go off walking again. In the house at night, I would leave a treat jar or tin by the door, when she comes in, she gets a treat, then she goes to bed, it all becomes part of the night time routine. Before I lost the plot completely and got too many dogs, my dogs would always get a bedtime treat, so they knew, out for a pee, in, treat and sleep for the night..

volchitsa

Thanks Muddypaws
(Loved the "before I lost the plot" comment, that made me laugh out loud!)

So, we've been doing most of that, except the systematic treating - I thought you weren't meant to treat systematically once something is understood, and I can see she does understand. She just sometimes thinks she's got a better/more important idea. :rolleyes:

I can see that you're right that fixing the issue of coming in at all will probably be easy, we just need to create a ritual like you suggest. The thing is that I wasn't too bothered by that on its own, but was worrying that it might all be part of her developing the feeling that she only needed to obey when it suited her.

The one that could be a problem is heading off to explore when off leash. She mostly comes back, and when she can see us (eg on the beach etc) she usually comes easily, because she thinks we're going to play ball. But when there's something "better", then she's started just looking blankly at us from a distance, and heading off to do whatever it is. It's like a child answering "yeah, coming!" and then keeping on playing or whatever!

muddypaws

Yeah, you're absolutely right, you should be able to fade the treats out, but sometimes you need to step back in your training for a while, and go back to the beginning, if a behaviour has slipped.

Would you consider a really long, light line for her for a while, so that you can always stop her disappearing? There are a few places now making biothane long lines, so they are easy to rinse off.

volchitsa

That's an interesting idea, I might look into that. Are they just for keeping her aware of being onleash if necessary (which would mostly be enough) or are they actually strong enough that if she raced after something they'd stand it?
(She's 25 kg and strong, so if she does tug, as still sometimes happens, you need to be ready for her!)

muddypaws

volchitsa wrote: »

That's an interesting idea, I might look into that. Are they just for keeping her aware of being onleash if necessary (which would mostly be enough) or are they actually strong enough that if she raced after something they'd stand it?
(She's 25 kg and strong, so if she does tug, as still sometimes happens, you need to be ready for her!)

They should be strong enough to stand on, but I would always recommend a harness rather than a collar, so that if you do have to stand on, and the dog gets jerked, its not on the neck. Also be aware of using them around trees etc, that they don't get tangled.

This is one seller in the UK, the biothane aren't cheap, but the material is really nice, so easy to keep clean. http://www.chrysalis-k9.co.uk/shop/

I use normal webbing long lines on some of my lot, which work really well, but they can pick up the dirt and water, easily washed in a bucket of water, but the biothane is definitely an easier material.

Im probably being a little cheeky commenting here as my dog doesn't have perfect recall. In an enclosed space she does. On a long lead she does but off leash in an open space she only mostly does because that husky part of her tells her to just run for the horizon every once in a while so we don't tend to let her off lead. But I don't feel that's lack of training just an instinct strong in the breed that's almost impossible to override.

Anyways... How I got her recall very good (in many scenarios) was hide and seek games. I would hide in another part of the house to begin with and call her to me. She loved it. I would be sitting inside a wardrobe or under a bed and she'd sniff me out and I'd make a big fuss of her and sometimes give her a treat.
Then progress to outside and hide around the garden then whistle for her to come outside and find me.

I can't tell you how much she loved this game and how she went from ignoring me most of the time I asked her to come, to running to me tail wagging as soon as I'd utter the word.

There's almost a small panic when they can't immediately find you and I think that motivates them more.

Just an idea for a little game that might help because like muddypaws said you don't want them to only associate coming to you to being put back on their lead and the fun ending.

Knine

3 out of the 4 of my terriers have great recall. One crafty lady however will actually scan the horizon often on her back legs like a Meercat the minute I call her because she knows there is usually a good reason for me wanting to put her on the lead.

I use tasty treats as small puppies as Terriers need plenty of recall training.

tk123

OP have you thought of using a whistle? I find it great for snapping the dogs out of whatever they're doing - especially if it's windy and my voice mightn't carry. You need to condition it SLOWLY at home first - e.g. whistle and treat again and again for a few weeks before trying it outside. I'm often frowned upon in my local park for always having treats because 'they'll expect a treat every time they come back' - eh yeah that's the whole point! I always reinforce with treats or praise when I call them back for the times I want therm back asap e.g. if they're in danger or park run is on and I don't want them getting in the way, or there's swans in the river etc etc

Lucy can take or leave treats so I use to have a special toy e.g. squeaky ball on a rope for her when she was younger that she only got when she came back so she was coming back for a game of tug and a play with me rather than lead going on and straight home.

sillysmiles

Another one who's dogs recall isn't perfect but what has improved it is calling back and praising during the walk and hiding in the forest on him. During the winter we used to do hide and seek inside, but dodgy knees, slippery timber floors and over excited dog do not make for a good combination. But when I'm walking him, especially in the forest and on my own, and I know he's not paying attention to me, I stand in behind a tree. Initially I used to call him, but now I say nothing and he'll suddenly realise he is alone and come looking for you.

volchitsa

A whistle is a great idea, I think I will try that.

From reading the comments generally, I realize I need to be more conscious of training as an ongoing process, and not as boxes that can be ticked. It's a mindset really, isn't it?

Thanks as ever for the ideas and the feedback, this is just such a brilliant forum - with helpful, and knowledgable, posters!

VonVix

volchitsa wrote: »

From reading the comments generally, I realize I need to be more conscious of training as an ongoing process, and not as boxes that can be ticked. It's a mindset really, isn't it?

It pretty much is. Most people don't realise they are training their dog every day, in everything they do, whether they like it or not. Dogs will do what benefits them, if there's no benefit to them, why should they do it? You've got lots of good suggestions here, just remember with recall, your goal is to essentially be more rewarding than whatever they're wanting to run towards.

coddlesangers

I've been working on recall on my dog since we got him as a puppy at 12 weeks, he's 2 now.  I found one thing that was easy to do and worked well with him (he's a herding breed, like your sheepdog) was to try and kick in his herding instinct a little to aid with recall - so started going/running the opposite direction noisily when he was focused out on something else while off leash - similar to hiding behind trees as suggested above, but with added action (running away) which seems to immediately kick him into "must round up my human" mode.  His recall isn't 100%, but its now pretty close, we still work on it every day.   As above, treats for behaviour you want...just remember to take away the calories of the treats you've given from his daily requirement or you end up with a fat dog.. :D

123shooter

volchitsa wrote: »

Hi all,
I'm sure this is something of a regular subject but I can't see any recent ones so thought it may be better to start a new one:

Our 18 month old sheepdog is fantastic, on the whole, full of energy and with a great sense of humour, but her sense of play can make her a bit of a handful at times, and we've noticed that while she mostly comes very willingly, there are times when she's begun to just completely ignore us because she's got something better to do, and of course if we go after her, then it immediately becomes a game, which makes it hard to handle.

I'm not sure what to do - she never goes far, and mostly she'll usually come straight back out, so she's not completely disobedient.

But for ex, yesterday I took her for a walk along a track, she ran about a good bit off leash, chased ball, ran after a couple of pigeons etc, basically a decent walk, and then when we got back to the car, instead of following me the last 50m to the carpark, she wandered off up the track in the other direction, where we hadn't been. She went round the corner out of sight, despite me calling her, and then after a good few minutes, just as I started to walk up the track to get her, she came racing down towards me all happy to see me! ��

What do I do? She wasn't in any danger, she wasn't gone far, but and she came back of her own accord (I wouldn't have a chance of catching her TBH!) so if I scold her at that stage will that not be pointless? But I'm sure she knows well what she's doing.

Or else at night, when the evenings are fine, she goes out for a pee and then doesn't want to come back in (I can't just leave her because then she barks later on and would disturb the neighbours) - but she goes over to her kennel, and just looks at us, and won't come in. She knows we're calling her but she just doesn't come. But again if we go to her she just takes it as a game.

Help!! What are we doing wrong?

Thanks.

Thing is with collies they are super intelligent and you have found one that has more brains than you and is running rings around you. She knows exactly what she is doing and it's a battle of wits. She is loving it.

As a previous poster said you need to be cleverer by making it worthwhile to follow your instructions by rewarding her with a treat.

We had one worse than yours, she was a nightmare but my baby and I miss her.

She only changed when we took in another collie stray and they started to play together, so her new fun was other than winding me up. In fact we ended up with 3 in total extra collies besides her and her energies were elsewhere than giving us heart attacks.

She was still a nightmare but a lot more manageable.

Another play friend and rewards are the way to go but letting her off the lead before she has calmed down is a bad thing in case she gets hurt or lost in her games of playing dad up.

volchitsa

A wry smile at that last post, I've been sussed! (except I'm a she, not a he) but yes that's exactly it, she mostly comes because she likes being with us, but it's when she wants!

About the idea of a playmate. We very nearly took a rescue dog in a few weeks back, for just that reason, but he was a very different personality from her, much softer and a bit fearful, and they just ignored each other when they met up a couple of times, so when another family were also interested in him we left it at that. Not too sure about the logistics of another dog at the moment, but if we happened to see one she really got on well with I'd still be tempted.

123shooter

volchitsa wrote: »

A wry smile at that last post, I've been sussed! (except I'm a she, not a he) but yes that's exactly it, she mostly comes because she likes being with us, but it's when she wants!

About the idea of a playmate. We very nearly took a rescue dog in a few weeks back, for just that reason, but he was a very different personality from her, much softer and a bit fearful, and they just ignored each other when they met up a couple of times, so when another family were also interested in him we left it at that. Not too sure about the logistics of another dog at the moment, but if we happened to see one she really got on well with I'd still be tempted.

Doesn't matter about the other dog having a completely different personality, if they ignore each other at first. It was same with ours.

jimf

A whistle is a must as it will have a consistent pitch to very sensitive ears

every whistle should have a treat on return for a week or so then maybe 8 out of 10 and reduce it gradually

even something as simple as turning around and walking the opposite direction can have amazing results

Latatian

One thing to add to the good advice here- don't call her unless you are absolutely sure that she's going to come back, while you're training (i.e. until she is already perfect at the level you're usually doing). So don't let her off lead if it's a situation where you cannot leave her to do her thing. Otherwise you call her, she's distracted, she doesn't come back, and whee, nothing happens and she gets to sniff the interesting thing and come back later. Practice what you want. So make sure you're practicing that she automatically comes when called. Build in distractions much later when she's rock solid.

In the garden, walk down to her and give her the command to 'go inside', rather than using 'come'.

Seconding the long line. I actually got quite a good one in the pound shop!