Luas Collisions

LionelNashe

What's to be done? It's not a solution to say, "Drivers need to open their eyes", or "Drivers are always trying to beat the red light.", even if it's true. That just points the finger, without changing anything.

I don't know if increased enforcement by cameras or guards would make a difference. If the risk of being hit by a tram doesn't stop you, the risk of three points on your licence is hardly going to do the trick.

I think that the problem needs some engineered solutions. For example, red lights embedded in the ground between the tracks, or hanging from an overhread gantry, that blink on and off when a Luas is approaching. Square traffic lights instead of round, to remind the driver that it's a tram junction.

Atlantic Dawn

Perhaps something like 10 penalty points for ignoring the lights at a Luas junction would be a good deterent.

AlekSmart

LionelNashe wrote: »

What's to be done? It's not a solution to say, "Drivers need to open their eyes", or "Drivers are always trying to beat the red light.", even if it's true. That just points the finger, without changing anything.

I don't know if increased enforcement by cameras or guards would make a difference. If the risk of being hit by a tram doesn't stop you, the risk of three points on your licence is hardly going to do the trick.

I think that the problem needs some engineered solutions. For example, red lights embedded in the ground between the tracks, or hanging from an overhread gantry, that blink on and off when a Luas is approaching. Square traffic lights instead of round, to remind the driver that it's a tram junction.

Ain't that the truth.

Take,for example the Belgard Road/Old Belgard Road Crossing point,which has developed into a major Traffic Management issue,paticularly with the return of economic activity,and commuting to,from and via the M50.

A forward sighted planner,looking at the situation back in the inception of LUAS Red Line,might have suggested an elevated crossing of the entire Belgard Road junction,particularly as the Tram Line dips significantly as it crosses the Main Road before rising again as it heads towards Kingswood Halt.

Boy,would that have improved the peak time traffic at the junction,but would also have pointed the finger in the direction of the (Supposedly) Professional Planner who designed the main arterial route between Two of the Largest Commercial Estates in the Leinster Region (Ballymount + Cookstown) and the M50 itself as a SINGLE LANE....As they might say...WTF....

Sadly the motto of modern Ireland,in Traffic matters,appears to be "Sorry,we don't do Planning here".

cython

LionelNashe wrote: »

What's to be done? It's not a solution to say, "Drivers need to open their eyes", or "Drivers are always trying to beat the red light.", even if it's true. That just points the finger, without changing anything.

I don't know if increased enforcement by cameras or guards would make a difference. If the risk of being hit by a tram doesn't stop you, the risk of three points on your licence is hardly going to do the trick.

I think that the problem needs some engineered solutions. For example, red lights embedded in the ground between the tracks, or hanging from an overhread gantry, that blink on and off when a Luas is approaching. Square traffic lights instead of round, to remind the driver that it's a tram junction.

The risk of either may not, but the certainty of the points/fine should have an influence, and absolutely no reason why this couldn't be assured by installing red light cameras at all points where trams and traffic interact, other than a lack of will.

As for highlighting the tram junctions rather than others, a double decker bus, or a coach or a HGV would make crap of plenty of other vehicles, and plenty of people run lights everywhere else where they could get hit by one of them just as easily as a tram here, so I don't see that being too effective.

ED E

One of the recent incidents: Delivery van driver, reversed over a footpath without looking and directly into a red line tram. Could have killed a ped never mind hitting the tram.


When you have morons like that on the road 8hrs a day accidents will happen. Traffic laws need to mean something in this country.

LionelNashe

cython wrote: »

The risk of either may not, but the certainty of the points/fine should have an influence, and absolutely no reason why this couldn't be assured by installing red light cameras at all points where trams and traffic interact, other than a lack of will.

As for highlighting the tram junctions rather than others, a double decker bus, or a coach or a HGV would make crap of plenty of other vehicles, and plenty of people run lights everywhere else where they could get hit by one of them just as easily as a tram here, so I don't see that being too effective.

Is there not a particular problem with people crashing into trams though? I asked the question on the assumption that people are used to sharing the road with buses but not trams. If you drive most places in a populated part of Dublin for 30 minutes you could encounter a dozen buses. You'd have be near a tram track to see a Luas, and even then you mightn't see one.

When the new line starts running at the end of the year, I'm expecting frequent front page photos for the first few months of cars & trams colliding, and underneath the stories there'll be countless comments from people who blame the driver and think that they would never make the same mistake.

Jamie2k9

An immediate 12 month driving ban for any light breaks and also an actual prison sentence for dangerous driving (ie hitting a tram). I know Ireland and prison sentences don't really go together but it's the only way that will stop the problem.

Jamie2k9

AlekSmart wrote: »

Ain't that the truth.

Take,for example the Belgard Road/Old Belgard Road Crossing point,which has developed into a major Traffic Management issue,paticularly with the return of economic activity,and commuting to,from and via the M50.

A forward sighted planner,looking at the situation back in the inception of LUAS Red Line,might have suggested an elevated crossing of the entire Belgard Road junction,particularly as the Tram Line dips significantly as it crosses the Main Road before rising again as it heads towards Kingswood Halt.

Boy,would that have improved the peak time traffic at the junction,but would also have pointed the finger in the direction of the (Supposedly) Professional Planner who designed the main arterial route between Two of the Largest Commercial Estates in the Leinster Region (Ballymount + Cookstown) and the M50 itself as a SINGLE LANE....As they might say...WTF....

Sadly the motto of modern Ireland,in Traffic matters,appears to be "Sorry,we don't do Planning here".

Didn't realize that the return of economic activity had a side affect of making drivers color blind.

I not arguing with the core point but blaming design for incompetent drivers isn't right.

Jamie2k9

LionelNashe wrote: »

What's to be done? It's not a solution to say, "Drivers need to open their eyes", or "Drivers are always trying to beat the red light.", even if it's true. That just points the finger, without changing anything.

I don't know if increased enforcement by cameras or guards would make a difference. If the risk of being hit by a tram doesn't stop you, the risk of three points on your licence is hardly going to do the trick.

I think that the problem needs some engineered solutions. For example, red lights embedded in the ground between the tracks, or hanging from an overhread gantry, that blink on and off when a Luas is approaching. Square traffic lights instead of round, to remind the driver that it's a tram junction.

The drivers who crash into trams don't just be careless at the exact time, they are always careless on the road so doing for example changing the shape of traffic lights will have zero impact on the few who cause the accident.

cython

LionelNashe wrote: »

Is there not a particular problem with people crashing into trams though? I asked the question on the assumption that people are used to sharing the road with buses but not trams. If you drive most places in a populated part of Dublin for 30 minutes you could encounter a dozen buses. You'd have be near a tram track to see a Luas, and even then you mightn't see one.

When the new line starts running at the end of the year, I'm expecting frequent front page photos for the first few months of cars & trams colliding, and underneath the stories there'll be countless comments from people who blame the driver and think that they would never make the same mistake.

To be honest, I don't think people are any more likely to crash into a tram than other traffic, but the disruption resulting from same is on a complete other scale. And if this is true, the idea that extra notification of it being a tram intersection will help hinges on the idea that the drivers concerned give more of a damn about the disruption that a tram collision will cause rather than with other drivers, and they simply don't give it that much thought.

Ultimately it's all the same indiscipline and lapses in these road users, and in the case of indiscipline, you could paint the stretch of road neon yellow and have 30 flashing signs on the approach, and they still won't care.

@1

Installing a few lifting ramps like these would stop them as demonstrated (@1:15)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_XrlZgQDj4

Del.Monte

Quite bizarre and no more than one would expect in the Third World. Reminds me a bit of some of the old NI border checkpoints with rams and shark's teeth.

Victor

cython wrote: »

To be honest, I don't think people are any more likely to crash into a tram than other traffic, but the disruption resulting from same is on a complete other scale.

Agreed. Crash into a bus and you affect one bus. Crash into a tram and you affect the whole line.

AMKC

Deleted User wrote: »

Installing a few lifting ramps like these would stop them as demonstrated (@1:15)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_XrlZgQDj4

Seems like a good idea. That driver there was a complete idiot do. The ramp goes dow n and then back up on one eide and what does he do he drives into it instead of by it the fecking ejit.

AMKC

AMKC wrote: »

Seems like a good idea. That driver there was a complete idiot do. The ramp goes dow n and then back up on one eide and what does he do he drives into it instead of by it the fecking ejit.

He probably didn't see it at all as it was under his nearside front, if he had waited for the lights to switch off..... (not helped by the twats pushing down the ramp to speed things up)
It looks like him jamming up the works caused the safety system to keep the lights on!

Banjoxed

There is an engineering solution needed all right. An engineering solution based on how the feck cop-on can be put into drivers' heads who take stupid chances against trams.

LionelNashe

I think that all of the replies that say that some drivers need to cop on, that some drivers are idiots etc, show a serious lack of imagination. By this logic, we could remove the barriers from train level crossings and just say "It's up to the drivers to be more careful, and we'll take away their licences if they're not." There will always be drivers who make mistakes. The junction & the signals have to be designed to take this into account.

LXFlyer

LionelNashe wrote: »

I think that all of the replies that say that some drivers need to cop on, that some drivers are idiots etc, show a serious lack of imagination. By this logic, we could remove the barriers from train level crossings and just say "It's up to the drivers to be more careful, and we'll take away their licences if they're not." There will always be drivers who make mistakes. The junction & the signals have to be designed to take this into account.

Can you point out where they use more than traffic lights elsewhere in Europe where trams run on street?

LionelNashe

lxflyer wrote: »

Can you point out where they use more than traffic lights elsewhere in Europe where trams run on street?

No. But if it's the case that they don't, that's no reason we can't be the first.

1) Here's some statistics from an old Oslo study:
https://www.toi.no/getfile.php/Publikasjoner/T%C3%98I%20rapporter/1997/367-1997/sum-367-97.pdf

"Comparing accident risk between tram and bus:
The accident risks for tram and bus were compared on the basis of accidents and exposure in streets trafficked by both tram and bus....the total risk of accidents for the tram is 3 times higher than for the bus.....For collision with cars (except the passing of stationary cars), the risk per vehicle-km is 3.5 times higher for tram than for bus, and for collision with pedestrian/cyclist it is 4 times higher."

2) Here's an extract from an Australian study about pedestrian accidents. They don't just say "Pedestrians need to cop themselves on and be more careful".

https://trid.trb.org/view.aspx?id=1148677
"Mitigation measures are developed and evaluated. Overall investment in platform stops, greater separation of passengers at stops and the use of formal pedestrian crossings is recommended. Barriers and increasing the width of safety zones is recommended as is narrowing roads to reduce driver speeds
including general traffic restriction measures and the use of warning signs on trams."

3) Here's another Australian piece:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-24/crash-data-sparks-call-to-separate-trams-from-traffic/8053106
"A rise in collisions between trams and motor vehicles shows the need to separate trams from traffic, an expert says."

4) Manchester, where people are driving onto tram lines by accident and getting stuck:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/metrolink-bosses-pledge-action-stop-10881193
"Metrolink boss Peter Cushing has vowed to take action at Holt Town to stop motorists ending up on the tram tracks....His team are looking at the possibility of new signage, ‘armadillo’ humps - or mobile barriers which rise and fall automatically like those used on Amsterdam’s tram network."


5) A Dutch study from 2001:
http://abstracts.aetransport.org/paper/index/id/2683/confid/13
"One important conclusion is that city trams are highly incompatible with most other vehicles. This concerns all three
potential incompatibility factors: mass, stiffness and geometry. Taking further into account the limited tram braking characteristics and low reaction time of
the tram system (approximately 1 second), city trams are potentially very dangerous in city traffic."


6) And here's our approach:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/luas-releases-video-footage-of-drivers-crashing-into-trams-1.1820304
"Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar has appealed to Dublin’s motorists to stop breaking red lights and hitting Luas trams.....Describing the actions of some motorists as “dangerous”, “ irresponsible” and “stupid”, Mr Varadkar said he wanted drivers to be aware the Garda had cameras on traffic lights where roads cross Luas lines. He warned that under a new pilot programme using CCTV as evidence, motorists “can be prosecuted, and will be prosecuted for breaking a red light”.

LXFlyer

Well I'd rather see them using ANPR cameras first as the norm with higher penalties before going down that kind of route.

tabbey

I have occasionally been close to obstructing the LUAS track, by miscalculating the space left by the vehicle in front, especially on Guild Street, crossing the Red line on Mayor Street. The same is commonplace for motorists cross the railway at Merrion, delaying the train and hundreds of passengers.

Today I was shocked at Bray station level crossing. Having waited behind the barrier road markings, and crossed when I had plenty of room on the other side, I looked back at the car behind, as it was taking a chance. Not merely was this car slightly fouling the railway, but two cars behind it were completely blocking the line. There was congestion due to summer sunday motoring.

The same cavalier motorists will take the same chances with trams. Everybody knows it is illegal, dangerous and anti-social to obstruct the railway / light railway, but unless culprits are effectively penalised, they don't care.

Everybody makes mistakes, but some people are deliberately reckless. Level crossings and on -street tram running need to be minimised in the city and other busy places.

Del2005

LionelNashe wrote: »

I think that all of the replies that say that some drivers need to cop on, that some drivers are idiots etc, show a serious lack of imagination. By this logic, we could remove the barriers from train level crossings and just say "It's up to the drivers to be more careful, and we'll take away their licences if they're not." There will always be drivers who make mistakes. The junction & the signals have to be designed to take this into account.

With all the bells, whistles and barriers people still drive across level crossings. So loads of warnings don't work and no warnings don't work.

The solution is fixing the muppet behind the wheel not the infrastructure. What it requires is to hit them where it hurts with penalty points and fines, but to do that our law enforcers would have to be directed to enforce more than 2 of our motoring laws.