Horse Ownership

Moon Dice

Hi all,

Been following racing for years and was looking to dip my toe into a part ownership or group scheme.
Something like Supreme racing club. I know Gordon Elliott has a racing club. Does anyone have any experience of this?

BumperD

If you search "syndicates" under this forum you'll find plenty of info. Never involved with either of those two mentioned but they seem to have plenty of success.

Andalucia

we should get a boards.ie syndicate together

buy a dual purpose horse at the horses in training sale in the UK, freshen him up, send him to one of the smaller capable trainers here, and see how things progress

Only Fools Buy Horses the documentary is worth a look

th hen

@moondice, I'm in one of the mentioned syndicates if you want to send me a pm as I can't seem to send you one ?

irish_major

Moon Dice wrote: »

Hi all,

Been following racing for years and was looking to dip my toe into a part ownership or group scheme.
Something like Supreme racing club. I know Gordon Elliott has a racing club. Does anyone have any experience of this?

Could only advise against this, cheap way to get in but too many people taking their cuts.
Not always possible for everyone but if you could pull 5 friends/famliy together head away to the horse in training sale later in the year and you'd pick up something that'll give you plenty craic for about 10 grand, you could pick up a decent horse in a claimer for about 10k too, horse is already in training so it's a quick way to start off. It's all about getting the right trainer too, plenty conmen around. If you could get one half decent gamble on it'll rightly cover you but as they say, you need billions to make millions in horse racing.

diomed

There was a thread about syndicates a few years back.
I had my usual moan.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=97373649

EICVD

Moon Dice wrote: »

Hi all,

Been following racing for years and was looking to dip my toe into a part ownership or group scheme.
Something like Supreme racing club. I know Gordon Elliott has a racing club. Does anyone have any experience of this?

Definitely give the[edit] a look into. We've a family share in one of the syndicate horses.

diomed

Advertising is not allowed.
I'm not saying there is advertising but I would prefer if business names were not mentioned.

Copper_pipe

http://www.goracing.ie/get-into-racing/racehorse-ownership/experience-it/

Harry Angstrom

Syndicates tend to be run for the benefit of those running the syndicates. Nice little earners for many of them, particularly in the UK. When Motivator won The Derby, his syndicate owners received relatively little by way of prize money. As someone else suggested, if you could get a group of friends together and get involved that way it would be a lot more enjoyable than owning a hair of a horse's tail.

Personally I'd not be one for syndicates either for moat of the reasons already highlighted. I too would be an advocate of shared ownership.

Ownership is expensive. Be under no illusion that the chances are that it will cost you money. Fees ranging from initial purchase, training, vets, dentist, registering horse, colours, transport etc They all can and DO add up.

Having said that, it is quite an exciting day out when your horse runs. The owners bar, parade ring and seeing your own colours and name in the racecard. There is a great buzz about the day.

diomed

TheTorment wrote: »

Having said that, it is quite an exciting day out when your horse runs. The owners bar, parade ring and seeing your own colours and name in the racecard. There is a great buzz about the day.

When my 8% or 10% ran in its first and only race I didn't know it was running.
When stopped at the traffic lights the following day I opened the Racing Post to find out it had run "broke leg 1f out, dead".
I think the only way to go is to organise it yourself, even if you know nothing.
Expect to pay about 80% extra on top of training fees for entries, vet, colours, farrier, jockey.
Costs can be large so the more owners the better.

Motivator

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

Syndicates tend to be run for the benefit of those running the syndicates. Nice little earners for many of them, particularly in the UK. When Motivator won The Derby, his syndicate owners received relatively little by way of prize money. As someone else suggested, if you could get a group of friends together and get involved that way it would be a lot more enjoyable than owning a hair of a horse's tail.

Motivator's owners were the Royal Ascot Racing Club which had over 250 members at the time, they put the prize money towards their membership costs the following year. I knew a few of the members at the time!

Harry Angstrom

Motivator wrote: »

Motivator's owners were the Royal Ascot Racing Club which had over 250 members at the time, they put the prize money towards their membership costs the following year. I knew a few of the members at the time!

The thing is though, if you're a member of a syndicate and you win a Derby and the horse is worth a few million as a stallion and you still don't get much back, it kind of illustrates how being a member of a syndicate is a bit pointless.

Motivator

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

The thing is though, if you're a member of a syndicate and you win a Derby and the horse is worth a few million as a stallion and you still don't get much back, it kind of illustrates how being a member of a syndicate is a bit pointless.

The majority of guys weren't in it for money, they had plenty of it. Royal Ascot Racing Club is purely a social thing - and there were guys in it that couldn't afford it but were simply keeping up appearances. Out of the group that I know who were members at the time of Motivators win, only 1 is still a member. The rest got cleaned in the bang around 7 or 8 years ago - as did a lot of the guys in it at the time.

Harry Angstrom

Motivator wrote: »

The majority of guys weren't in it for money, they had plenty of it. Royal Ascot Racing Club is purely a social thing - and there were guys in it that couldn't afford it but were simply keeping up appearances. Out of the group that I know who were members at the time of Motivators win, only 1 is still a member. The rest got cleaned in the bang around 7 or 8 years ago - as did a lot of the guys in it at the time.

True, but I bet Harry Herbert never missed a week's salary with his management of the Highclere/Royal Ascot Club syndicates, and his association with these almost certainly landed him the nice job with Al Shaqab.
The interesting thing about Motivator (and other horses run by the syndicate) is that ownership always rested with the Royal Ascot Authority so the syndicate never really owned him - a bit like Alex Ferguson thinking he somehow owned Rock Of Gibraltar.

Motivator

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

True, but I bet Harry Herbert never missed a week's salary with his management of the Highclere/Royal Ascot Club syndicates, and his association with these almost certainly landed him the nice job with Al Shaqab.
The interesting thing about Motivator (and other horses run by the syndicate) is that ownership always rested with the Royal Ascot Authority so the syndicate never really owned him - a bit like Alex Ferguson thinking he somehow owned Rock Of Gibraltar.

My point in fellas not being in it for the money was in response to your point about members not getting a return financially from their investment when joining the club.

I agree with your points above though. Ferguson should have known the way things worked and tried to use his name to get a few quid out of Coolmore.

Harry Angstrom

Motivator wrote: »

My point in fellas not being in it for the money was in response to your point about members not getting a return financially from their investment when joining the club.

I agree with your points above though. Ferguson should have known the way things worked and tried to use his name to get a few quid out of Coolmore.

And my initial point was that the people who seem to benefit most from syndicates are the people who manage them, so I think we're on the same page

I have a feeling that Ferguson got a tidy pay-off from Coolmore to make that problem disappear, but they were very naive in the first place to let him think he owned the horse. I doubt he paid anything towards its training, veterinary or entry fees but it was good publicity for Coolmore at the time. Just a pity for them that he turned out to be one of the best milers in years....

Motivator

Harry Angstrom wrote: »

And my initial point was that the people who seem to benefit most from syndicates are the people who manage them, so I think we're on the same page

I have a feeling that Ferguson got a tidy pay-off from Coolmore to make that problem disappear, but they were very naive in the first place to let him think he owned the horse. I doubt he paid anything towards its training, veterinary or entry fees but it was good publicity for Coolmore at the time. Just a pity for them that he turned out to be one of the best milers in years....

Ferguson got €2.5m as far as I can remember.

Nothing was ever signed - it was a verbal agreement and he stumped up the money for a share. He demanded millions then when he went to stud.

famagusta

I hate seeing so much negativity on here regarding syndicates.
Some of the best days I've had are following a horse I've a leg in around the country, win or lose. As I've said along with a few others, go talk to a trainer, find one you like/trust and see what he can do.

I'm in charge of a syndicate for the third time now, I don't take any cut for myself, I pay I like everyone else.

I really think that if you have any interest in racing, you should go for it, you will get an unbelievable amount of enjoyment seeing a horse run in your colours.

diomed

See my post #4 in the earlier thread linked above.
My brother was also in a syndicate and it cost him loads. The horse was useless. The only positive was my brother could afford it.
My favourite colour is yellow. It is cheaper to just cheer the yellow.

th hen

I think you can be lucky and unlucky, you need to put into perspective what you can afford first. That then gauges the kind of syndicate you can join . A private syndicate where you have 10 or so friends and you bought the horse is probably the best opion but also list expensive in most circumstances. Also you can target horse to its ability level ie wait a year or so and pull off a good gamble

Then you have the Internet large syndicates. Generally cheaper ( not in some cases ) but a racing manager usually decides the decision on horse the horses is campaigned etc and you rely on him for information rather than speaking straight to trainer like private syndicate. Usually best of these syndicates is you make new friends and have a bit of banter and get the odd tip from other members.

Usually syndicates promise a lot but fail to deliver. Some people see attraction in horse with big name trainer but then you are an extremely small fish in a huge pond. I think your better off with smaller good trainer (there are plenty )

From my experience start at a cheapish level to see how you fair out and then decide if you want to spend more money.

For me what you want from a syndicate in the long run is

A horse who is competitive at least once
( hopefully more though )

A stable tour for a day out

An odd tip which helps pay for membership

Transparency i.e.horses ability, chances, targeted campaign

At the end of the day we all want a few days away at the races and a few winners and an odd gamble to add to excitement.

After all thats said it's easier said than done though........

irish_major

diomed wrote: »

See my post #4 in the earlier thread linked above.
My brother was also in a syndicate and it cost him loads. The horse was useless. The only positive was my brother could afford it.
My favourite colour is yellow. It is cheaper to just cheer the yellow.

This.
Not sure if people in this thread have an ulterior motive or are being genuine. I really hope you stay away from these syndicates OP. You will regret it.

diomed

irish_major wrote: »

This.
Not sure if people in this thread have an ulterior motive or are being genuine. I really hope you stay away from these syndicates OP. You will regret it.

My first "ownership" (8%/10% share) lasted about a year. It was a year of horse health excuses, then the horse ran without me knowing, and it died in the race.
Amazingly the administrator contacted me the following week offering to sell shares in another horse.
He never told me the first horse died, or the circumstances, or why I was not told it was racing.

My second experience was a racing club that leased horses.
The arrangement was we paid all costs and were to get the bigger part of any prizemoney.
One horse won three races and €99,970 (I looked it up just now).
We were told that we were not the owner and we could check that with the Turf Club.
At the end of the year we were told we each had a small amount, less than €10 to come, but they would roll it over to next year.
Who got the money? I don't know.
It taught me a lesson about horse racing people.

I am genuine. Are they?

diomed

One additional point about the horse that won €99k.
The Racing Post website says it was owned by the racing club for four months, and in that time it won those three races, and also placed 3rd.

scotsman03

I have just recently joined a UK based syndicate. It was a reasonable initial cost then it is a monthly fee after that.

So far so good. Communication has been excellent. Horse has not run yet but hopefully in the next month. Pm if u want to have a look at the website.

irish_major

diomed wrote: »

My first "ownership" (8%/10% share) lasted about a year. It was a year of horse health excuses, then the horse ran without me knowing, and it died in the race.
Amazingly the administrator contacted me the following week offering to sell shares in another horse.
He never told me the first horse died, or the circumstances, or why I was not told it was racing.

My second experience was a racing club that leased horses.
The arrangement was we paid all costs and were to get the bigger part of any prizemoney.
One horse won three races and €99,970 (I looked it up just now).
We were told that we were not the owner and we could check that with the Turf Club.
At the end of the year we were told we each had a small amount, less than €10 to come, but they would roll it over to next year.
Who got the money? I don't know.
It taught me a lesson about horse racing people.

I am genuine. Are they?

You're one of the only genuine people I've seen on here!
That sounds about right for most of these syndicates, i really don't get how people knock enjoyment out of them. Trainers & whoever manages these syndicates are really having a laugh and they are the only ones profiting.

diomed

scotsman03 wrote: »

I have just recently joined a UK based syndicate. It was a reasonable initial cost then it is a monthly fee after that.

So far so good. Communication has been excellent. Horse has not run yet but hopefully in the next month. Pm if u want to have a look at the website.

Forum rules
Advertising: The advertising of services/blogs/sites is prohibited - all threads will be deleted and the user banned.
The advertising of horses for sale is strictly prohibited.

I think we will keep this thread to a general discussion of the benefits or otherwise of syndicates.

th hen

@irish major

What do you find not genuine about myself ????

diomed

th hen wrote: »

@irish major
What do you find not genuine about myself ????

Let's keep this discussion general, not personal.

famagusta

diomed wrote: »

My first "ownership" (8%/10% share) lasted about a year. It was a year of horse health excuses, then the horse ran without me knowing, and it died in the race.
Amazingly the administrator contacted me the following week offering to sell shares in another horse.
He never told me the first horse died, or the circumstances, or why I was not told it was racing.

My second experience was a racing club that leased horses.
The arrangement was we paid all costs and were to get the bigger part of any prizemoney.
One horse won three races and €99,970 (I looked it up just now).
We were told that we were not the owner and we could check that with the Turf Club.
At the end of the year we were told we each had a small amount, less than €10 to come, but they would roll it over to next year.
Who got the money? I don't know.
It taught me a lesson about horse racing people.

I am genuine. Are they?

If you and Irish Major got caught out with some lad ripping you off, thats your own fault.

There are plenty of genuine trainers out there.

I have said above, go sort out the syndicate yourself, then you'll have nobody to blame.

We all know there is a lot of luck involved but don't be painting the whole lot in a bad light just because you had a bad experience!!

th hen

Well Irish major may want to consider who he labels genuine or not . All I've done is be open and transparent in my views and I've answered numerous pm about syndicate I'm in and believe me I've been un biased and hopefully those that pm'do me thought the same.

diomed

This is from the Faber Book of the Turf (1990)

The article is called The Joys of Multiple Ownership

In 1987 the author bought two shares of £395 each in Newmarket Thoroughbred Racing & Chasing
The company attracted a start-up sum of £309,285.
Bloodstock cost £147,149. When sold they recouped £65,300, a deficit of £81,849.
Prize money was £17,198.
Training fees £69,017, race manager’s fees £16,400, horse transport £10,376, entry fees £14,135, VAT £12,576, secretarial/office £15,739, printing/advertising £13,985, legal/professional £11,484.
Trading losses £253,874 plus start up costs £34,408.

Horses
Elegant Stranger: cost £6,037, sold £11,550
Baxtergate: cost £15,784, sold £5,001
Stormy Eve: cost £3,622, sold £880
Zarafion: cost £6,300, sold £1,500
Pertain: cost £2,500, sold £3,800
Andartis: cost £10,000, sold £497
Llanpadrig: cost £16,834, sold £4,000
Howhus: cost £5,704, sold £400
Easy Line: cost £9,660, sold £3,000
Lucayan Gold: cost £16,800, sold £7,560

He said “the sound you hear is that of money whoosing”

The expected return for his £395 shares was £17.50.

diomed

famagusta wrote: »

We all know there is a lot of luck involved but don't be painting the whole lot in a bad light just because you had a bad experience!!

Two bad experiences, and my brother's bad experience is three bad experiences.
And the article in my previous post makes four.

famagusta

diomed wrote: »

This is from the Faber Book of the Turf (1990)

The article is called The Joys of Multiple Ownership

In 1987 the author bought two shares of £395 each in Newmarket Thoroughbred Racing & Chasing
The company attracted a start-up sum of £309,285.
Bloodstock cost £147,149. When sold they recouped £65,300, a deficit of £81,849.
Prize money was £17,198.
Training fees £69,017, race manager’s fees £16,400, horse transport £10,376, entry fees £14,135, VAT £12,576, secretarial/office £15,739, printing/advertising £13,985, legal/professional £11,484.
Trading losses £253,874 plus start up costs £34,408.

Horses
Elegant Stranger: cost £6,037, sold £11,550
Baxtergate: cost £15,784, sold £5,001
Stormy Eve: cost £3,622, sold £880
Zarafion: cost £6,300, sold £1,500
Pertain: cost £2,500, sold £3,800
Andartis: cost £10,000, sold £497
Llanpadrig: cost £16,834, sold £4,000
Howhus: cost £5,704, sold £400
Easy Line: cost £9,660, sold £3,000
Lucayan Gold: cost £16,800, sold £7,560

He said “the sound you hear is that of money whoosing”

The expected return for his £395 shares was £17.50.

What are you on about??

If a lad wants to join these big syndicates, thats fine, there's management fees and all that crap.

As i've said before, [edit], have a chat and go from there

irish_major

I'm not trying to have a go at anyone personally I'm just giving my 2 cents.

I have been stung by horse racing game a few times, the only syndicates I've been in are with close family so that's a good a start as you can hope for. We'd make every decision together and there was never any issues between us. Where the issues arose were with trainers stringing you along, what would happen more often than not is a very delayed racecourse debut because the horse was ****e.
It's fairly hard, not impossible, to find a very honest trainer for your horse - no-mind having to trust some fella running a syndicate with the trainer, who he's most likely good buddies with.

I can't figure out why you wouldn't try to get a few buddies together with 3 or 4 k each. Buy something and knock your own craic out of that, obviously it's a great buzz when the horse is your own but i really don't get the thrill of handing over a fair portion of the 3 or 4k to some lad running a syndicate.

No matter how good peoples experiences have or haven't been from them on here the majority of them lose heavily. With the winners being the trainer, the fella running the syndicate and sometimes an owner who's possibly getting a win or two into their horse for breeding purposes.

Gregk961

I think these Trainer operated syndicates are a joke. You are going to get ripped off either at the front end or the back end. Its easy to see why they are so popular; people who cant afford a horse themselves are being given the illusion that they own one.

If you and your friends/family cant manage it I would never dream of entering a sydicate with a group of strangers, particularly one organised by the trainer(no matter how "Genuine" they seem they are taking something extra for all their effort)

th hen

I still believe the biggest decision before entering into a syndicate is what you can afford. I don't believe you will become rich unless extremely lucky !!! The syndicate I'm involved with costs me 140 a month. I can afford that as a reasonable sum monthly.

Am I happy with what I'm getting back for my 140......... In some parts yes and in some parts no is short answer. But I'm willing to persevere until see my horse run. If doesn't run this year I'm sure my opinion will change to a definite NO as towards if syndicates are any good. At the end of the day it's costs me the price of a Saturday night out. I don't believe I will make any money from the horse but hopefully I'll get a few days at the races and theres a bit of craic with other members .

Only spend what you can afford and remember the chances you will find the next kauto star as like finding a rocking horses poop.

Copper_pipe

https://mobile.twitter.com/MDOCallaghan/status/882273681942208513

PM me nudes

Wrong thread

LivinLarge

That actually looks like a good one that [edit] is running and possibly one of the best I've seen. V Low stakes and should get a bit of craic if nothing else.

Before getting involved, I would still recommend getting some additional info like the member limit, share percentage, how prize money is distributed, what deductions are made from the prize money fund, are there any additional costs to the E199 entry, horse sale money distribution, etc.

Would need to go through all the detail in this but I imagine like a lot of these racing clubs, you don't actually own anything or make any decisions. Having said that, this looks like it could be a good way to get involved for small money.

For those saying to stay away from horse ownership altogether, I think it all needs to be put in context. First things first, it will cost you money. Once you accept that, I think its a case of what you can afford and what you are willing to spend for a bit of fun.

You will almost always get better value for money setting up a syndicate yourself with friends or family. Nearly always, the racing manager is taking a cut so you are paying a premium for someone to mange it straight away. Even if a trainer is running the syndicate themselves, you must remember that they are running a business and will be making sure that they wont be losing money. They are not in it for the fun just like you so any losses will be coming out the members end.

So whilst you will probably do it cheapest and have more input by arranging it yourself, it can also be a burden and takes a hell of a lot of time and effort to manage. Its especially not nice mixing friends and family with money and continued arguments of how things should be done. It can turn into a nightmare so sometimes paying a premium to someone else can be worth it.

Also think about who you are getting involved in the syndicate. If you get non-horsey people, they often have unrealistic expectations of success no matter what you tell them. So whilst I would still recommend setting up something yourself, there are many factors (including cost) which might not make it workable.

Regardless of how its run, you still need to accept that you will lose money but its about how much you are willing to spend for the expected fun and control. With all that said, it can be some craic when things work out and I still wouldn't discourage anyone once they know exactly what they are getting involved with! Just remember the good days are far and few between.

diomed

In post #28 I asked posters to keep the discussion general.

I see that a proposed racing club (not syndicate) is mentioned in post #39.
That proposal mentions ownership and lists eight horses, but careful reading will reveal:
You will not own any or part of those horses;
You will not receive any prize money won.*
* you will be entered into a draw for a percentage (unspecified) of prizemoney every two months.

It may be coincidence but the racing club I was in had these colours:
white body with red diamond on chest, black and white sleeves, red cap
And the racing club linked above has these colours:
black body with red diamond on chest, black and red striped sleeves and cap

...............................................................................................................

Forum rules
Advertising: The advertising of services/blogs/sites is prohibited - all threads will be deleted and the user banned.
The advertising of horses for sale is strictly prohibited.

Keep this thread to a general discussion of the benefits or otherwise of syndicates.
Any further advertising links to syndicates or racing clubs or references to them in posts and the thread will close.

famagusta

LivinLarge wrote:

That actually looks like a good one that [edit] is running and possibly one of the best I've seen. V Low stakes and should get a bit of craic if nothing else.

Dead right, for two hundred quid you'll get a right bit of craic. A easy way to get involved!

famagusta

diomed wrote:

I see that a proposed racing club (not syndicate) is mentioned in post #39. That proposal mentions ownership and lists eight horses, but careful reading will reveal: You will not own any or part of those horses; You will not receive any prize money won.* * you will be entered into a draw for a percentage (unspecified) of prizemoney every two months.

For two hundred quid you could hardly expect to own a share of eight horses??!

The club is a bit of fun, heading to the races like an owner, going to the trainers yard, updates on progress etc..

All that stuff is great for somebody to enter the world of racing for small money.

diomed

going to the races like an owner
= "entered into a draw for tickets to the races which will include paddock passes and owners badges"

going to the trainer's yard.
= "invited on a rotating basis"

diomed

I think it best to close this thread.
Posters have continued to ignored requests to not mention syndicates / racing clubs by name.

diomed

Shilling
A shill is a user who plugs things on the sly. Any user found out to be a shill will be perm-banned from boards. You have been warned.