fixed penalty at faded yellow box junction

as234

I received a fixed penalty notice for a box junction violation.

I have checked the box junction and the lines are completely faded so as to be not visible from my direction.

I have taken a photo.

I said I could not see the markings but the Gard said that meant I wasn't Sri ing with due care and attention..he was very rude.

I want to appeal - do I have grounds and how do I go about it.

is it worth it?

thanks in anticipation

a

i

hullaballoo

The only way to challenge a FPN is to leave it unpaid, wait for the summons and try your argument on the judge. The risk is that if the judge doesn't go in your favour, you get a criminal conviction.

It's worthwhile noting that you are not allowed to enter a junction unless you can clear it, irrespective of whether there are yellow lines on the road.

Victor

as234 wrote: »

Sri ing

Driving?

I want to appeal - do I have grounds and how do I go about it.

Go to court, argue your case. Having a solicitor would be useful.

Report the faded lines to the council and take another photo when they fix it. Show judge.

Bandana boy

Once many moons ago I had to appear in court for non payment of a traffic fine
What was interesting while I waited was that if the Garda who gave the fine is not there the judge threw it out , While most were Speeding fines with 1 Garda representing many fines at a time , the unusual ones the Garda never bothered turning up .
Was it a traffic cop who issued the fine ?

Also while I waited three cases were challenged with evidence , as soon a the defendant stood up with papers to fight their case the Garda withdrew the charge , evidence was not heard.
The court that day was rattling through cases and I felt they were happy to let a few challenges go for expediency.

If you feel strongly on the topic I would fight it .

coylemj

hullaballoo wrote: »

It's worthwhile noting that you are not allowed to enter a junction unless you can clear it, irrespective of whether there are yellow lines on the road.

Unless you are turning right.

If there is a general prohibition, why do they go to the expense of painting the yellow boxes?

punisher5112

coylemj wrote: »

Unless you are turning right.

If there is a general prohibition, why do they go to the expense of painting the yellow boxes?

To highlight it as many would just continue on and block junctions even more so.

as234

I will have to think whether it is worth the risk of conviction and the time to defend - but it does seem rather unfair

ohnonotgmail

coylemj wrote: »

Unless you are turning right.

If there is a general prohibition, why do they go to the expense of painting the yellow boxes?

because there is a general exception for those turning right. the yellow box overrides that exception.

ohnonotgmail

Is thee yellow box visible at all in the photo? Did you take it at the entrance to the junction?

as234

not from my direction but you can see corners of it from the direction the gard was coming from. if i can i will try to post the picturr

Marcusm

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

because there is a general exception for those turning right. the yellow box overrides that exception.

You can enter and remain in a yellow box if you are turning right!

GM228

hullaballoo wrote: »

It's worthwhile noting that you are not allowed to enter a junction unless you can clear it, irrespective of whether there are yellow lines on the road.

This isn't correct, the only restriction on entering a junction when you can't clear it is in relation to a yellow box.

Whilst it may be possible that some other charge could apply (causing an obstruction, driving without due care and consideration etc) there is none in itself in relation entering a junction you can't clear if there is no yellow box.

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

because there is a general exception for those turning right. the yellow box overrides that exception.

It's the other way round, turning right overrides the yellow box rules, you can enter a yellow box which you can't clear for the purposes of turning right.

as234

so I have to wait to see what the penalty is for. if it's not clearing a box junction then I might be able to defend myself. everyone I have showed the picture to agrees you cannot see the yellow box.

I will probably just pay the fine but think it's unfair that you cannot appeal without taking time to go go to court and risk a conviction.

the said Gard was clearly filling up his notebook book. luckily I had my driving licence and all the other paperwork was in order. just wonder why he had to be so rude.- he made me doubt myself by saying I should have noticed the box - which no one else can see..

thanks

GM228

as234 wrote: »

I will probably just pay the fine but think it's unfair that you cannot appeal without taking time to go go to court and risk a conviction.

But you can appeal any FCPN by looking for a Category B cancellation, see here:-

http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=13233

FCNs can be cancelled by An Garda Síochána when the evidence would not sustain a prosecution and / or due to exceptional circumstances a prosecution would not be appropriate, fair or proportionate.

And then if that does not work you can appeal via court - seems pretty fair to me.

as234

I will have a go - on the assumption that there was no box visible on the road.

I will post how I get on

thanks

4ensic15

Bandana boy wrote: »

Once many moons ago I had to appear in court for non payment of a traffic fine
What was interesting while I waited was that if the Garda who gave the fine is not there the judge threw it out , While most were Speeding fines with 1 Garda representing many fines at a time , the unusual ones the Garda never bothered turning up .
Was it a traffic cop who issued the fine ?

Also while I waited three cases were challenged with evidence , as soon a the defendant stood up with papers to fight their case the Garda withdrew the charge , evidence was not heard.
The court that day was rattling through cases and I felt they were happy to let a few challenges go for expediency.

If you feel strongly on the topic I would fight it .

Just because you see something happening in one District Court one day,does not mean it will happen like that every day. Go into another court before a different judge and you might find everthing is adjourned for the guards who are not there. the guards fight every case because they know the judge will side with them. It is not worth gambling the price of a FCPN in the hope of beating the rap unless there is a lot at stake.

as234

thanks for all your advice everyone - I will appeal based on incorrect penalty with photo evidence - any reasonsble person cannot ser yellow box junction - but won't go to court to contest as not worth the downside risk

Losty Dublin

as234 wrote: »

thanks for all your advice everyone - I will appeal based on incorrect penalty with photo evidence - any reasonsble person cannot ser yellow box junction - but won't go to court to contest as not worth the downside risk

How much is the Ticket for? And how much would the possible conviction be?

Bandana boy

4ensic15 wrote: »

Just because you see something happening in one District Court one day,does not mean it will happen like that every day. Go into another court before a different judge and you might find everthing is adjourned for the guards who are not there. the guards fight every case because they know the judge will side with them. It is not worth gambling the price of a FCPN in the hope of beating the rap unless there is a lot at stake.

I don't really disagree with you
I only have one point of reference so cannot say whether what I saw was an anomaly or regular practice.
My limited experience suggests if you arrive prepared the Garda have bigger fish , but if you have broader and more relevant experience I wont argue with you.

4ensic15

Bandana boy wrote: »

I don't really disagree with you
I only have one point of reference so cannot say whether what I saw was an anomaly or regular practice.
My limited experience suggests if you arrive prepared the Garda have bigger fish , but if you have broader and more relevant experience I wont argue with you.

I have been in many District Courts and seen different judges in action. They all vary. Some ( not many) are as you describe. Others are the opposite. In one city, almost every person charged with a public order offence will be convicted. In another district, almost every person charged with a public order offence will be asked to pay into the poor box and will avoid a conviction. The guards get to know the local judge and act accordingly. Some judges ignore sworn evidence of not getting post, other accept it.

as234

Losty Dublin wrote: »

How much is the Ticket for? And how much would the possible conviction be?

it will be 60 euro I think - I don't know what conviction would be but it would mean taking time off work & would not want a conviction

ellobee

Marcusm wrote: »

You can enter and remain in a yellow box if you are turning right!

Provided you are not blocking traffic that has right of way.

Victor

For clarity http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/si/182/made/en/print

29. (1) Subject to sub-article (2), where traffic sign number RRM 020 [yellow box] is provided at a junction (whether controlled by traffic sign number RTS 00I, RTS 002 or RTS 004 [traffic lights], or otherwise], and notwithstanding any indication to the contrary that may be given by such traffic signs, a driver of a vehicle shall not enter, either partly or wholly, the crosshatched area unless the vehicle can clear the area without stopping.

(2) Sub-article (1) shall not apply where a driver of a vehicle intending to make a right-hand turn at a junction enters the crosshatched area for that purpose.

Personally, I think sub-article (2) should only apply to traffic exiting the 'leg' of T-junctions or other situations where traffic isn't obstructed.

UrbanFox

I thought that you could enter a box junction and remain stationary on it for the purposes of executing a right hand turn provided that you did not obstruct any other vehicle that might have right of way.

ellobee

UrbanFox wrote: »

I thought that you could enter a box junction and remain stationary on it for the purposes of executing a right hand turn provided that you did not obstruct any other vehicle that might have right of way.

Thats what it says in the RSA rules of the road,and would be the correct answer to give if asked that question in your driving test, But I think its classed as Good driving Pratice rather than an actual law .

GM228

ellobee wrote: »

UrbanFox wrote: »

I thought that you could enter a box junction and remain stationary on it for the purposes of executing a right hand turn provided that you did not obstruct any other vehicle that might have right of way.

Thats what it says in the RSA rules of the road,and would be the correct answer to give if asked that question in your driving test, But I think its classed as Good driving Pratice rather than an actual law .

The law is when turning right at a junction you must yield the right of way to any vehicle approaching on the same road from the opposite direction and intending to proceed straight through or turn left at that junction. The exception is obviously where stop/yield signs are provided and minor roads leading into major roads.

Otherwise the vehicle turning right has right of way if it blocks say vehicles which may later approach (i.e not approaching at that time) from any another direction.

For example you can stop in a yellow box whilst turning right when no vehicles are approaching and obstruct a different lane as vehicles approaching afterwards (i.e not approaching at the time) must yield right of way to you.

Oh and another exception to the yellow box rule is any vehicle exiting an adjacent bus lane can enter the yellow box if it isn't clear to exit.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

4ensic15

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Maybe so. Many cases do not justify an appeal because of expense or that there is no genuine defence anyway.