Notice period on death of tenant?

hometruths

Been googling without success, and cannot find a definitive answer.

Does anyone know the law on the requirements for giving notice to end a tenancy when the tenant dies?

testicles

This post has been deleted.

Paulw

schmittel wrote: »

Been googling without success, and cannot find a definitive answer.

Does anyone know the law on the requirements for giving notice to end a tenancy when the tenant dies?

Am I missing something? Surely when a tenant dies, the tenancy no longer exists?

I assume you are referring to having the place emptied out by the estate so that the property can be let out again?

Victor

Did the tenant have anyone living with them?

punisher5112

Stuff would have to be put into storage or contact the immediate family and see what they want done with it.

Tenancy no longer exists as mentioned above.

You would have to give reasonable time for personal affects to be collected.

hometruths

It was a Part 4 tenancy, tenant lived alone.

Under normal circumstances there is a required notice period for tenant to give landlord, but obviously in this case that was not possible.

So the question is do the legal reps of the tenant have to give notice to the landlord and if so how long?

punisher5112

schmittel wrote: »

It was a Part 4 tenancy, tenant lived alone.

Under normal circumstances there is a required notice period for tenant to give landlord, but obviously in this case that was not possible.

So the question is do the legal reps of the tenant have to give notice to the landlord and if so how long?

No unless others were living with them.

Baby01032012

You are joking and this is a troll I hope.

So you expect executor on behalf of tenant to pay rent in lieu because tenant didn't give notice that they were going to die!

Please tell me I'm wrong and misread the OP

And I guess you want to take a case for non payment of rent if executor doesn't pay.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

schmittel wrote: »

It was a Part 4 tenancy, tenant lived alone.

Under normal circumstances there is a required notice period for tenant to give landlord, but obviously in this case that was not possible.

So the question is do the legal reps of the tenant have to give notice to the landlord and if so how long?

I imagine the notice period begins from the day the landlord receives notification of the tenants death (might need to be in writing). I don't know if this notice period is a fixed amount due to the circumstances, or if the notice period is based on the contract or how long the tenant was renting the property. The estate should be responsible for paying all rent during the notice period.

Not a nice situation to be in for any involved. Do you have any contact details for next of kin to organize removal of property etc?

hometruths

Baby01032012 wrote: »

You are joking and this is a troll I hope.

So you expect executor on behalf of tenant to pay rent in lieu because tenant didn't give notice that they were going to die!

Please tell me I'm wrong and misread the OP

And I guess you want to take a case for non payment of rent if executor doesn't pay.

You misread the OP. I am the tenant's son, not the landlord. The landlord is peeved he wasn't given notice.

Putting aside his lack of sympathy, what I want to know is if legally he has any right to expect a notice period from the tenant's estate.

pinkypinky

What notice could legal reps possibly give? They already know the tenant has died.
They just need to give you a chance to clear out the person's property - I think a few weeks' would be reasonable.


ETA: very sorry for your loss, OP.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Baby01032012 wrote: »

You are joking and this is a troll I hope.

So you expect executor on behalf of tenant to pay rent in lieu because tenant didn't give notice that they were going to die!

Please tell me I'm wrong and misread the OP

And I guess you want to take a case for non payment of rent if executor doesn't pay.

The op didn't expect notice that they were going to die... that's quite obvious I would have thought.

However, landlord is running a business and not a charity. If payments are due, they should be paid.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

schmittel wrote: »

You misread the OP. I am the tenant's son, not the landlord. The landlord is peeved he wasn't given notice.

Putting aside his lack of sympathy, what I want to know is if legally he has any right to expect a notice period from the tenant's estate.

Sorry for your loss.

Contact citizens information to find out what you need to do in this case.

wordofwarning

schmittel wrote: »

The landlord is peeved he wasn't given notice.

Putting aside his lack of sympathy, what I want to know is if legally he has any right to expect a notice period from the tenant's estate.

I know this is not what you want to hear. But at the end of the day, being a landlord is a business. He has bills to pay, taxes to pay, mortgages, etc. You can only be so sympathy, when you have you have asset lying idle with no money come in on it and the bills piling up.

IMO you should really be into the property ASAP to clear out your family members property. You can rent a garage or a storage unit to store the property until the estate is divided/until you decide what to do with the property.

NY Times generally has good info on this type of stuff. NY which is very tenant friendly, appears to allow the landlord to collect rent from the estate until the property is empty. NY Times says you should empty the property ASAP.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/22/realestate/when-a-tenant-living-alone-dies.html

A loss of a family member is very unfortunate. But you can't expect a business to go without payment over it

hometruths

wordofwarning wrote: »

I know this is not what you want to hear. But at the end of the day, being a landlord is a business. He has bills to pay, taxes to pay, mortgages, etc. You can only be so sympathy, when you have you have asset lying idle with no money come in on it and the bills piling up.

IMO you should really be into the property ASAP to clear out your family members property. You can rent a garage or a storage unit to store the property until the estate is divided/until you decide what to do with the property.

NY Times generally has good info on this type of stuff. NY which is very tenant friendly, appears to allow the landlord to collect rent from the estate until the property is empty. NY Times says you should empty the property ASAP.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/22/realestate/when-a-tenant-living-alone-dies.html

A loss of a family member is very unfortunate. But you can't expect a business to go without payment over it

I'm not looking for sympathy or what I want to hear, I am trying to find out what the law is!

Victor

Sorry to hear your father died. If there is a solicitor dealing with the estate, perhaps discuss it with them.

I'm not sure that the situation is fully considered in legislation. However, the tenant being deceased terminates the contract. It is difficult to see how the landlord can retrieve money beyond the date to which rent was paid. It would be harsh and likely improper for the landlord to use any deposit in lieu of notice. While the landlord might make a claim against the estate, that is the furthest they can go.

Certainly, I think the landlord would be entitled to payment form the estate while the deceased's possessions are in the property.

you might ask the landlord for a copy of the lease and list of contents.

Ms Doubtfire1

Carmelo Bumpy Fauna wrote: »

The op didn't expect notice that they were going to die... that's quite obvious I would have thought.

However, landlord is running a business and not a charity. If payments are due, they should be paid.

:mad: how far do some Ll go? the Tenant died. You're dealing with a mourning son. let it go. Canb't be that much. Dinity is worth a lot m ore. Jayes I would love to start a name and shame page for greedy landlords (and bad tenants)

hometruths

For clarification, flat is empty and dealt with. This happened a few months ago and just dealing with the fallout now. Wasn't really able for the details back then, that is when I was looking for sympathy. Now I am just trying to tidy up loose ends.

Rent paid by DD every month on 15th. Tenant died on 17th. Landlord informed of death on 19th. First conversation about handover of flat took place on 28th. Flat handed back on 15th of following month having been emptied and tidied.

So in terms of rent LL is not out of pocket. We are now trying to retrieve deposit.

My position is a dead guy cannot give notice, and we should have full deposit back.
LLs position is he should have rent paid up to 28th - i.e the notice period.

Who is right in eyes of law?

Ms Doubtfire1

schmittel wrote: »

For clarification, flat is empty and dealt with. This happened a few months ago and just dealing with the fallout now. Wasn't really able for the details back then, that is when I was looking for sympathy. Now I am just trying to tidy up loose ends.

Rent paid by DD every month on 15th. Tenant died on 17th. Landlord informed of death on 19th. First conversation about handover of flat took place on 28th. Flat handed back on 15th of following month having been emptied and tidied.

So in terms of rent LL is not out of pocket. We are now trying to retrieve deposit.

My position is a dead guy cannot give notice, and we should have full deposit back.
LLs position is he should have rent paid up to 28th - i.e the notice period.

Who is right in eyes of law?

In effect, notice has been given when informing Ll of the death. Get the case to the Tenancy board pronto.Don't deal with this person anymore in any shape or form, this is ridicolous. Leave it to the board

Riskymove

The Estate of the person is responsible for Bills

Any outstanding bills should be sent to solicitor dealing with estate matters - I assume earlier rent due would be considered the same.

In the UK a lease does not automatically end with the death of a tenant and usually an agremeent is reached with estate for a period (usually 30 days) to finalise matters/remove belongings etc. A solicitor should be able to tell you the position here.

Michael D Not Higgins

The Residential Tenancy Act, Section 39 says the tenancy is terminated on the tenant's death. There is no notice period, the tenancy is terminated automatically.

If we're talking about how long the estate should be given to move out of the property, that's a different question and one that's not covered in the RTA. Whether rent is payable in this instance is one for the lawyers, can rent be charged when the tenancy is legally terminated?

Edit: rent was paid for the period up to the possessions being removed. The landlord doesn't have a legal leg to stand on.

punisher5112

To be honest 1st post was extremely unclear.

Very sorry to hear of your loss and understand its a hard time.

Honestly get everything out let ll know and wash your hands of them.

They should really be more understanding.

If there are bills outstanding contact providers and close the account.

I would suggest also taking photos of likes of ESB meter and gas if there and everything else at the property just in case they ever tried to chase for costs and so on.

The LL will only waste a ton of money trying to chase for rent or a notice.

wordofwarning

schmittel wrote: »

My position is a dead guy cannot give notice, and we should have full deposit back.

Outstanding debt always come out of the estate. When you die, your outstanding liabilities are generally outstanding and come out of the estate.

schmittel wrote: »

LLs position is he should have rent paid up to 28th - i.e the notice period.

Who is right in eyes of law?

Generally rent has to be paid until the keys are returned when someone is living. I don't see why it should be different when someone passes.

Your relatives estate was still benefiting from the property when they passed. I don't see why they should get a deposit back from the 28th, as the property was not returned to the landlord until the keys were handed back on the 15th.

As linked in the article in NY City, the estate is liable for rents until the property is handed back. I don't see why this is any different here.

I don't how you would address this with the RTB even

emeldc

feargale wrote: »

Perhaps you should now respond to post 10.

To be fair, I read the OP in exactly the same way. It was very vague. But it's been cleared up now.

Mrs OBumble

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

:mad: how far do some Ll go? the Tenant died. You're dealing with a mourning son. let it go. Canb't be that much. Dinity is worth a lot m ore. Jayes I would love to start a name and shame page for greedy landlords (and bad tenants)

The only person the LL should be dealing with is the executor of the estate.

tomwaits48

try telling a credit company to back off when someone dies....they'll tell you to get lost, believe me.

ohnonotgmail

wordofwarning wrote: »

Outstanding debt always come out of the estate. When you die, your outstanding liabilities are generally outstanding and come out of the estate.



Generally rent has to be paid until the keys are returned when someone is living. I don't see why it should be different when someone passes.

Your relatives estate was still benefiting from the property when they passed. I don't see why they should get a deposit back from the 28th, as the property was not returned to the landlord until the keys were handed back on the 15th.

As linked in the article in NY City, the estate is liable for rents until the property is handed back. I don't see why this is any different here.

I don't how you would address this with the RTB even

the LL was paid up until the 15th. why would they expect to be paid beyond this?

Baby01032012

schmittel wrote: »

You misread the OP. I am the tenant's son, not the landlord. The landlord is peeved he wasn't given notice.

Putting aside his lack of sympathy, what I want to know is if legally he has any right to expect a notice period from the tenant's estate.

OP I apologise as I had misread your OP as you were the landlord. I'm also sorry for your loss. I wasn't able to respond earlier to correct myself. Hopefully you've found the answer you needed. As a landlord I'd suggest you Ignore those posters who said the landlord is running a business not a charity and also those that quoted U.K. Or nytimes as they are misinformed. It's clear that all obligations had been met up to date you removed your dads possessions. Hopefully the landlord sees sense returns deposit and doesn't make this time any more difficult.

Paulw

wordofwarning wrote: »

As linked in the article in NY City, the estate is liable for rents until the property is handed back. I don't see why this is any different here.

Probably because we're not in NY, but in Ireland, and Irish law applies.

As has been stated -

The Residential Tenancy Act, Section 39 says the tenancy is terminated on the tenant's death. There is no notice period, the tenancy is terminated automatically.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

:mad: how far do some Ll go? the Tenant died. You're dealing with a mourning son. let it go. Canb't be that much. Dinity is worth a lot m ore. Jayes I would love to start a name and shame page for greedy landlords (and bad tenants)

Thanks to Higgins we now know the rules here, but your personal opinion on the matter has no bearing on how one runs a business. If there was money owed, the LL should rightfully seek payment. The bank are not going to waiver the LL's mortgage payment because his tenant died. You don't know the LL's position and to blindly suggest he waives any remaining payments is very naive.

seagull

Paulw wrote: »

As has been stated -

The Residential Tenancy Act, Section 39 says the tenancy is terminated on the tenant's death. There is no notice period, the tenancy is terminated automatically.

How exactly does that work? If the tenancy is over, then surely the executor doesn't have any actual right to access the property to remove the deceased's belongings. Is it up to the landlord and the executor to come up with a mutual agreement of how it will be handled, and when the property will be returned?

Paulw

seagull wrote: »

How exactly does that work? If the tenancy is over, then surely the executor doesn't have any actual right to access the property to remove the deceased's belongings. Is it up to the landlord and the executor to come up with a mutual agreement of how it will be handled, and when the property will be returned?

I would assume, yes, they come to an agreement about return of keys, return of property, etc. Any outstanding bills (ESB, Gas, etc) would be forwarded to the executor to deal with.

Either way, once the tenancy is ended, the deposit should be returned and no further rent would be due.

It's seldom black and white, and normally comes down to a discussion between landlord and family of the tenant.

Michael D Not Higgins

Paulw wrote: »

I would assume, yes, they come to an agreement about return of keys, return of property, etc. Any outstanding bills (ESB, Gas, etc) would be forwarded to the executor to deal with.

Either way, once the tenancy is ended, the deposit should be returned and no further rent would be due.

It's seldom black and white, and normally comes down to a discussion between landlord and family of the tenant.

I've found a couple of RTB cases related to this but nothing specific yet.

One, the tenant died with a licensee. The licensee was the tenant's brother and claiming they were a entitled to take over the tenancy but this relationship isn't protected by Section 39 (only spouse, child or parent). The RTB gave him 90 days to move out and also awarded rent arrears up to the date of the tenant's death but no mention of rent due during the 90 days for the licensee to move out.

Interestingly this is the only case that actually quotes Section 39 in the RTB archive.

Another found the third party wasn't the personal representative (didn't have Grant of Administration at the time) of the deceased and couldn't bring a complaint to the Board. This landlord was trying to claim costs for storage of the possessions. Unfortunately the RTB claimed they had no jurisdiction so I don't know where this ended up.

As usual, I'd expect the RTB to grant some kind of compromise in a situation like this. For the OP, the rent was paid for the period that the possessions were on the property so there should be no dispute and no entitlement to retaining the deposit.