When will battery die?

Shefwedfan

Ok, this has come up and not 100% sure what answer is. As you have seen I am on look out for second hand Leaf for my mother.

She just rang me and said my brother was told the following(my brother knows the local Nissan sales man very well so I would guess it is coming from him, I don't think his garage sell electric)

The battery in the cars only has a certain lifetime. Maybe 10 years. After that the battery is gone and you will need to replace which would cost 7k so the car is worthless.

Now maybe above is correct in a certain way but I never really checked myself what story is with battery. I know it degrades but if official numbers given for when it will become useless? if you lose X bars before warranty is up will Nissan replace?

It is not a big problem for me as I will do the mileage over the years so will drive it into the ground.

My mother will be just doing small mileage so doesn't want an issue after a few years. She buys a 10-12 Leaf not but in 2-3 years the battery goes on it. Its not like she will resell it, she doesn't want to have to buy something in a few years.

The battery doesn't die it just looses capacity over time, it's only when it becomes unfit for purpose is when it's time to replace the battery and at current costs is about 5,500 installed. By the time one is needed could be half that making a seriously good cheap car even 10-15+ years old provided the body is ok.

The Leaf model from 2014 on has an improved battery chemistry and is the one to get if possible.

ELM327

As mad lad said, get a gen 1.5 leaf much better battery and less deg.
I've got 80k km and still 92%-94% SOH.

Can reccomend getting leafspy to check a car you are buying.

Leaf Spy data will be + - 5-7%, cars left sitting and not used much report lower figures than those used a lot and fast charged a lot.

isnottheword

Sounds like the sales guy is not sold on what he's selling himself.

At 10 years, how much will have been forked out in fuel and repairs on an ICE? Isn't it likely that there will be at least a couple of big repair bills on an ICE towards the end of that 10 year period? eg. swapping out water pump/timing belt.

Other than a warranty repair, I have not had a repair carried out on my Leaf over the past 11 months. I do high mileage - so would expect to have spent at least a few hundred by now on ICE related servicing alone (before repairs - and there's always something going on an ICE) during that time.

Why not compute out the range at 70%? You said your mother does small mileage. Perhaps it will make no difference? Even if it does, you can be sure that there's someone that it will suit at that point (who does the school run/shops, etc. - as a second car). Naturally, it will have devalued at that point (same as an ICE) - but if priced correctly, will still be useful to someone else.

Other than that, there is a possibility that third parties will supply batteries down the road OR Nissan will offer them cheaper OR an independent will offer battery reconditioning. Not guaranteed - but increasingly likely as time goes on - and there are more used EV's floating around.

BoatMad

firstly , we still have 2011 leafs on the road , with close to 200,000km , and 3 bars,

that is not a useless car, and cars that are functional are not " worthless )

I have a 2.5 litre diesel pickup in good nick , it has 220,000KM and is "07" its worth about 4K in reality ,

all cars at this point are relatively worthless

The big advantage of old EVs, is that (a) the battery can be replaced pack by pack , so there is only need to replace certain packs

The cost are around 4K at present for a whole replacement in the UK, but in time there will be third party replacements, ( simply because there will be a demand )

The electric motor is virtually good for the life time mechanics of the car. probably one of the longest lasting components of the design

The main issue in an old EV will not be the battery costs, its will the costs of specialised components , for example its about 3000 euros to replace the DC DC convertor in the Leaf ,


Batteries are they least of the issue in reality

"PS ignore salesmen , they know virtually nothing about the technology )

oppenheimer1

BoatMad wrote: »

firstly , we still have 2011 leafs on the road , with close to 200,000km , and 3 bars,

that is not a useless car, and cars that are functional are not " worthless )

I have a 2.5 litre diesel pickup in good nick , it has 220,000KM and is "07" its worth about 4K in reality ,

all cars at this point are relatively worthless

The big advantage of old EVs, is that (a) the battery can be replaced pack by pack , so there is only need to replace certain packs

The cost are around 4K at present for a whole replacement in the UK, but in time there will be third party replacements, ( simply because there will be a demand )

The electric motor is virtually good for the life time mechanics of the car. probably one of the longest lasting components of the design

The main issue in an old EV will not be the battery costs, its will the costs of specialised components , for example its about 3000 euros to replace the DC DC convertor in the Leaf ,


Batteries are they least of the issue in reality

"PS ignore salesmen , they know virtually nothing about the technology )

I don't know if you can really say that third party battery packs will be able to be used. I imagine Nissan have some sort of patent on the battery to prevent this. As far as I know patents last for 20 years.

Once the battery is spent, realistically it will be off to a recycling center.

BoatMad

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I don't know if you can really say that third party battery packs will be able to be used. I imagine Nissan have some sort of patent on the battery to prevent this. As far as I know patents last for 20 years.

Once the battery is spent, realistically it will be off to a recycling center.

Nissan has no patents on the Pack , per se, Also EU law forbids car companies monopolies on parts supply. There is nothing to stop , for example LG, producing a clone battery

and again remember you replace the battery pack by pack , not the whole battery ( there is NO " whole" battery )

Once the battery is spent, realistically it will be off to a recycling center

This true for everything , including petrol engines, as any breakers yards will testify

Again the fact is we have high mileage Leafs from 2011 still being used today

oppenheimer1

BoatMad wrote: »

Nissan has no patents on the Pack , per se, Also EU law forbids car companies monopolies on parts supply. There is nothing to stop , for example LG, producing a clone battery

and again remember you replace the battery pack by pack , not the whole battery ( there is NO " whole" battery )



This true for everything , including petrol engines, as any breakers yards will testify

Again the fact is we have high mileage Leafs from 2011 still being used today

I would be surprised if there was no element of vendor lock in wrt the battery. I think it really is beside the point though.

The difference between electric and petrol/diesel is that 10+ years several small and medium sized issues arise, all of which are fixable for small and medium money and people get invested in the car (sunk money fallacy) EV has few things to go wrong but are mostly big ticket items which people may be less inclined to repair. This is not a criticism btw

BoatMad

The difference between electric and petrol/diesel is that 10+ years several small and medium sized issues arise, all of which are fixable for small and medium money and people get invested in the car (sunk money fallacy) EV has few things to go wrong but are mostly big ticket items which people may be less inclined to repair. This is not a criticism btw

Let me see,

All these cars were within ten years
Mitsubishi Galant , New fuel injector , timing belt , $$$$$$$
Jeep Grand cherokee, new rear diff $$$$$
Range Rover 1 , : Blown turbo at 200,000 k,m $$$
Range rover 2 , : Blown turbo at 230 , 000 km , new exhaust $$$$$$$$$$, timing belt ( 2
Range Rover 3: New gearbox at 170,000Km , new alternator at 130,000km $$$$$$$
Range rover 4: Nothing but sold within warranty
Nissan Navara :, replacemtn timing chain ( conversion to double chain ) $$$$$, clutch $$$, fixing various oil leaks $
Fiat Stilo : dont mention that $$$$$$$$


I can go on!!!

EV has few things to go wrong but are mostly big ticket items which people may be less inclined to repair

we have simply no data on which to make that assertion

ted1

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

BoatMad wrote: »

firstly , we still have 2011 leafs on the road , with close to 200,000km , and 3 bars,

that is not a useless car, and cars that are functional are not " worthless )

I have a 2.5 litre diesel pickup in good nick , it has 220,000KM and is "07" its worth about 4K in reality ,

all cars at this point are relatively worthless

The big advantage of old EVs, is that (a) the battery can be replaced pack by pack , so there is only need to replace certain packs

The cost are around 4K at present for a whole replacement in the UK, but in time there will be third party replacements, ( simply because there will be a demand )

The electric motor is virtually good for the life time mechanics of the car. probably one of the longest lasting components of the design

The main issue in an old EV will not be the battery costs, its will the costs of specialised components , for example its about 3000 euros to replace the DC DC convertor in the Leaf ,


Batteries are they least of the issue in reality

"PS ignore salesmen , they know virtually nothing about the technology )

I don't know if you can really say that third party battery packs will be able to be used. I imagine Nissan have some sort of patent on the battery to prevent this. As far as I know patents last for 20 years.

Once the battery is spent, realistically it will be off to a recycling center.

I'd say like ink cartridges, the EU won't allow them to restrict 3rd party battery packs

oppenheimer1

BoatMad wrote: »

Let me see,

All these cars were within ten years
Mitsubishi Galant , New fuel injector , timing belt , $$$$$$$
Jeep Grand cherokee, new rear diff $$$$$
Range Rover 1 , : Blown turbo at 200,000 k,m $$$
Range rover 2 , : Blown turbo at 230 , 000 km , new exhaust $$$$$$$$$$, timing belt ( 2
Range Rover 3: New gearbox at 170,000Km , new alternator at 130,000km $$$$$$$
Range rover 4: Nothing but sold within warranty
Nissan Navara :, replacemtn timing chain ( conversion to double chain ) $$$$$, clutch $$$, fixing various oil leaks $
Fiat Stilo : dont mention that $$$$$$$$


I can go on!!!



we have simply no data on which to make that assertion

If be more worried about the navara falling apart than anything else.

That said it's hardly fair to compare a leaf to a range Rover. It cost me E500 to get a timing belt and full service on a megane last year.

The point is it's easier to spend E500 on three problems than it is E1500 on one big one. The battery going is a big problem so if it goes in an old leaf it's more likely to be scrapped than saved. No more than an engine blowing in a mk1 megane. I didn't think this point would be too controversial tbh!

BoatMad

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If be more worried about the navara falling apart than anything else.

That said it's hardly fair to compare a leaf to a range Rover. It cost me E500 to get a timing belt and full service on a megane last year.

The point is it's easier to spend E500 on three problems than it is E1500 on one big one. The battery going is a big problem so if it goes in an old leaf it's more likely to be scrapped than saved. No more than an engine blowing in a mk1 megane. I didn't think this point would be too controversial tbh!

Actually once you address the specific timing belt issue with the Navara, its a rigged piece of kit

I have no frame rust issues nor back axle problems ( that was mainly a particular DANA axle issue in the UK )

I only paid 7K at 70,000km for it 5 years ago !!. The RRs are of course a complete disaster , but I did love the sports ( had three)



I simply make the point that we have NO data to back up what you are saying , first we have first generation leafs still in active use. we have 10 year warranties ( unlimited in USA hyundai) on batteries to 70%, ( most likely however the mileage clause will be exceeded

and we haven't seem the aftermarket industry yet arrive, because EV numbers are still low ( very low)

Hence your argument is entirely speculative

The point is it's easier to spend E500 on three problems than it is E1500 on one big one. The battery going is a big problem so if it goes in an old leaf it's more likely to be scrapped than saved.

Again you have no data , and you are talking as if in say 10 years ( i.e. current new models ) the costs of the battery will be the same . I doubt it

thierry14

Battery would be my least of my worries

Who will be able to fix the drive train if goes bananas?

All the other bits that can wrong

Might sound ignorant here but nearly 99.99% of electronic items are tossed out when the go wrong, phones, hoovers, showers, lawnmowers etc

Are EV's any different?

Is a 10 year old Leaf worth fixing if drive train goes?

What big money jobs can go wrong in an EV

Who can fix them

Main dealers only?

Not much independents around I'd guess

la ultima guagua

thierry14 wrote: »

.......
Who can fix them

Main dealers only?

Not much independents around I'd guess

When volumes ramp up PhoneFix style indys will popup

Soarer

thierry14 wrote: »

Is a 10 year old Leaf worth fixing if drive train goes?

I guess we'll find out in 4 years time.

In the meantime, we'll continue to make huge annual savings compared to ICE cars.

thierry14

Soarer wrote: »

I guess we'll find out in 4 years time.

In the meantime, we'll continue to make huge annual savings compared to ICE cars.

I guess we will

Tesla had a massive amount of drive trains failing

20k a go for replacement

Not saying a Leaf or econ EV's like Ioniq us plebs will be buying will cost the same to replace

It's big money when they go and they do fail

66% of Model S below supposedly failing after 60k miles

Think diesels are costly to repair when they fail, EV's can be a disaster

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.breitbart.com/california/2015/12/12/tesla-report-two-thirds-tesla-model-s-drivetrains-replaced-60k-miles/amp/

Shefwedfan

Thanks all for advice. Budget will not stretch to newer model so will be Gen 1 Leaf. Originally was looking at Peugeot ION etc.....going to try and stretch budget to get a Leaf

With a Gen 1 what type of distance you looking at with full battery? Winter time as well.....

Soarer

thierry14 wrote: »

I guess we will

Tesla had a massive amount of drive trains failing

20k a go for replacement

Not saying a Leaf or econ EV's like Ioniq us plebs will be buying will cost the same to replace

It's big money when they go and they do fail

66% of Model S below supposedly failing after 60k miles

Think diesels are costly to repair when they fail, EV's can be a disaster

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.breitbart.com/california/2015/12/12/tesla-report-two-thirds-tesla-model-s-drivetrains-replaced-60k-miles/amp/

You might find us a report on the number of big money failures that the Leaf and Ioniq have had.

Until then, you're just propagating the unfounded fears that the general public has regarding electric vehicles.

Soarer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Thanks all for advice. Budget will not stretch to newer model so will be Gen 1 Leaf. Originally was looking at Peugeot ION etc.....going to try and stretch budget to get a Leaf

With a Gen 1 what type of distance you looking at with full battery? Winter time as well.....

That's a how long is a piece of string question.

If she's doing small mileage, she'll get 100kms no bother between charges.

But just get a home charger installed, get into the habit of plugging it in every evening, and she'll never have a problem.

n97 mini

thierry14 wrote: »

I guess we will

Tesla had a massive amount of drive trains failing

20k a go for replacement

Not saying a Leaf or econ EV's like Ioniq us plebs will be buying will cost the same to replace

It's big money when they go and they do fail

66% of Model S below supposedly failing after 60k miles

Think diesels are costly to repair when they fail, EV's can be a disaster

https://www.google.ie/amp/www.breitbart.com/california/2015/12/12/tesla-report-two-thirds-tesla-model-s-drivetrains-replaced-60k-miles/amp/

A link to Breitbart. I'd consider myself slightly right of centre, but those guys are just trolls. I'll read the article though, but with a jaundiced eye.

thierry14

Soarer wrote: »

You might find us a report on the number of big money failures that the Leaf and Ioniq have had.

Until then, you're just propagating the unfounded fears that the general public has regarding electric vehicles.

Ioniq is too new and Leaf in fairness to it looks to be very reliable with a simple low power motor

Fears are not unfounded, maybe not in econ boxes like Leaf

Tesla's have had plenty of problems, maybe it's cause they are a start up and do high power motors

I wouldn't be buying one of them out of warranty

n97 mini

thierry14 wrote: »

Ioniq is too new and Leaf in fairness to it looks to be very reliable with a simple low power motor

Fears are not unfounded, maybe not in econ boxes like Leaf

Tesla's have had plenty of problems, maybe it's cause they are a start up and do high power motors

I wouldn't be buying one of them out of warranty

Warranty is 8 years, so you wouldn't be paying a lot anyway for an out of warranty Tesla as it won't exactly be new. I'd take a punt on an 8 year old P100D

unkel

thierry14 wrote: »

Tesla had a massive amount of drive trains failing

20k a go for replacement

Eh no. Nobody has paid a cent for replacement.

thierry14

unkel wrote: »

Eh no. Nobody has paid a cent for replacement.

That's the point

OP was talking about old EV's

unkel

By the time the Model S cars come out of warranty (after 2020), I've no doubt all problematic points will have been fixed. For free.

Nobody is claiming the Model S is an extremely well built and reliable car. It has problems. It's refreshing to see though how Tesla have managed this. Rather than sticking to the terms of the warranty and throwing a sneaky goodwill free fix here and there like most incumbent manufacturers would, Tesla doubled the warranty and made it unlimited mileage. And they actually fix problems, improve parts. Not just replace broken parts.

On a side note, I saw a vid the other day where a model S came up for its NCT (not in this country). The car had done 400k km and was in excellent condition. The original brake discs were about half worn. Not bad for a nearly 2.5 tonne car

Shefwedfan

Soarer wrote: »

That's a how long is a piece of string question.

If she's doing small mileage, she'll get 100kms no bother between charges.

But just get a home charger installed, get into the habit of plugging it in every evening, and she'll never have a problem.

Home charging is been installed. I am looking for an average of what people are seeing?

I know what I would normally get from my electric so just wondering what the Leaf Gen 1 is coming in at?

Its not that the distance will be an issue. It is more so my mum knows what she can expect......

If it is between 100-120km between charges that would be perfect

Soarer

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Home charging is been installed. I am looking for an average of what people are seeing?

I know what I would normally get from my electric so just wondering what the Leaf Gen 1 is coming in at?

Its not that the distance will be an issue. It is more so my mum knows what she can expect......

If it is between 100-120km between charges that would be perfect

Well I get at least 100kms between charges, and my battery has two "blocks" gone according to the dash, and I think LeafSpy has me at 75% SOH.

oinkely

One of our Leafs is a 132 gen 1 with 68K km on it. It lost it's first battery bar in March. I drive a 60 km round trip daily to work and back and would do a few km on the school run etc every morning too. So about 70 km a day - it varies from day to day but i would normally be charging from about 30 to 40%. My commute is M11 to Dun Laoghaire and i do it after the rush hour in the morning so 100 to 120km/h for part of it. Home in the evening is slower with a lot of traffic usually for half the commute.

I would say that 120km would be no problem whatsoever on local roads with our current gen 1.

Shefwedfan

oinkely wrote: »

One of our Leafs is a 132 gen 1 with 68K km on it. It lost it's first battery bar in March. I drive a 60 km round trip daily to work and back and would do a few km on the school run etc every morning too. So about 70 km a day - it varies from day to day but i would normally be charging from about 30 to 40%. My commute is M11 to Dun Laoghaire and i do it after the rush hour in the morning so 100 to 120km/h for part of it. Home in the evening is slower with a lot of traffic usually for half the commute.

I would say that 120km would be no problem whatsoever on local roads with our current gen 1.

Perfect thanks, just what I needed