Proposed Cork mass transit system

marno21

Given Cork's relentless drive to develop its Docklands area (well compared to Dublin anyway), its clear that a rapid transit system be it BRT or light rail will have to be developed to cater for the additional journeys.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/1bn-new-cork-development-will-see-city-unlock-potential-of-docklands-794147.html

munchkin_utd

marno21 wrote: »

Given Cork's relentless drive to develop its Docklands area (well compared to Dublin anyway), its clear that a rapid transit system be it BRT or light rail will have to be developed to cater for the additional journeys.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/1bn-new-cork-development-will-see-city-unlock-potential-of-docklands-794147.html

Maybe an example of how it can be done is Rennes in France where its inital metro was only 8km with an underground city centre section connecting the city bus and rail stations with city centre and university . So workers, shoppers, revellers, students, long distance rail travellers all catered for in the one project.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rennes_Metro#Line_A

It runs at an average frequency of 80seconds and is unmanned, so good for France as it cannot go on strike, and it would have similar benefits in Ireland too !
Cost back in 2002 was 550million, which isnt cheap, but as an investment thats there for generations to come and a far better investment in the city to increase prosperity and quality of life of 100s of thousands of city residents than other even more expensive projects mooted for the Cork area.

In rennes theres not a bus in the centre of town at all any more, from a situation previously where there was utter chaos (its centre is a little like Galway, really pokey and not where you'd want to have a main bus corridor).

Idbatterim

if they are going to install a luas or "metro" if it runs under the brownfield, cut and cover much cheaper than tunneling. I hope cork city council doesn't approach Dublin city council for advice on the docklands anyway :rolleyes:

pigtown

Plans for this are in their infancy but they do have a good idea of the likely east-west route. They have included a turning curve in the docklands masterplan, and the changes happening around the train station and Patrick St. are taking such a transit system into account.

billyduk

pigtown wrote: »

Plans for this are in their infancy but they do have a good idea of the likely east-west route. They have included a turning curve in the docklands masterplan, and the changes happening around the train station and Patrick St. are taking such a transit system into account.

Ya I think its been catered for in the south doc plans.

I like the BRT idea more than the LRT idea (mainly for cost reasons). Belfast City Council have just ordered 30 hybrid diesel electric Van Hool EquiCity BRT trams. They look slick and narrow (Like an LRT), allowing them to be quite versatile in challenging urban environments.

Seen here:
http://www.exquicity.be/en/

I think an West-East corridor would be a priority. Something running along the following route:

Ovens - Ballincollig - CIT - Wilton/CUH - UCC - Grand Parade - Lapps Quay - Docklands One - Docklands Two - Blackrock Village - Mahon Point

And a potential North to South line of:

Hollyhill (Apple) - Blackpool - MacCurtain St. - Kent Station - Docklands One (Crossover) - Ballinlough - Douglas Road - Douglas - Grange - Frankfield - Cork Airport Business Park - Cork Airport

BlinkingLights

I have to say that despite all the slagging Cork gets for being ambitious, at least it has a grand plan and is thinking way outside the box.

If only Dublin had been doing similar a few decades ago!

Cork risks actually developing into a decent city.

billyduk

BlinkingLights wrote: »

I have to say that despite all the slagging Cork gets for being ambitious, at least it has a grand plan and is thinking way outside the box.

If only Dublin had been doing similar a few decades ago!

Cork risks actually developing into a decent city.

I never saw Cork as too ambitious. It was more a case of realising its potential given its position as an economic driver for the South West region and recognising the impediments to growth (getting around the city being a major issue). The City management have really been on top of their game over the last 20 years with how they see the City growing and reshaping.

The official city boundary cutting off half the suburbs hasn't helped much either (particularly with growth planning and funding via EU urban grants). The proposed boundary extension will benefit its ability to plan and grow.

I'm delighted to see Cork City Council properly stage its growth. I do think the transport issue is something the DOT need to address. An LRT would be overkill for Cork, but a BRT would be ideal and it badly needed.

CatInABox

BlinkingLights wrote: »

I have to say that despite all the slagging Cork gets for being ambitious, at least it has a grand plan and is thinking way outside the box.

If only Dublin had been doing similar a few decades ago!

Cork risks actually developing into a decent city.

In fairness, Dublin has had a plan for decades, but there's too many vested interests throwing regular spanners in the works. It's also faces difficulty due to the fact that any project worth doing in Dublin is also really expensive.

The sooner Cork gets projects like this up and running the better, in my opinion. It'll show people all over Ireland that ambition in urban planning isn't a ridiculous concept. Hopefully some of that will rub off on Dublin.

bk

I'd love to see the running of buses in Cork be taken from BE * and given to a Cork Transport Authority, with the NTA and city/county council involved.

* Buses could still be operated by BE, but under the direction and management of the CTA.

BE down in Cork is just a totally toxic organisation. These are folks who couldn't be bothered to run a coach between Cork and Dublin after 6pm and said there was no demand for direct, non-stop services between Cork and Dublin!

There are also the same people who refused to use Double Deckers in Cork, leaving large numbers of passengers behind at stops due to lack of capacity, until the NTA forced double deckers on them recently.

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I can tell you that BE in Cork makes Dublin Bus look like a well run efficient bus service! That is really saying something.

At least things are starting to improve down in Cork with the new double deckers really helping with capacity and seemingly more to come, Leap Card, RTPI, new NTA bus stop info, Aircoach/GoBE, etc.

But still an awful long way to go to match even Dublin Bus, never mind other better European operators.

Yes, a BRT like the one in Belfast would be an excellent start for Cork (could be converted to Luas later). Hell that Belfast BRT would be great for Dublin too IMO.

marno21

bk wrote: »

I'd love to see the running of buses in Cork be taken from BE * and given to a Cork Transport Authority, with the NTA and city/county council involved.

* Buses could still be operated by BE, but under the direction and management of the CTA.

BE down in Cork is just a totally toxic organisation. These are folks who couldn't be bothered to run a coach between Cork and Dublin after 6pm and said there was no demand for direct, non-stop services between Cork and Dublin!

There are also the same people who refused to use Double Deckers in Cork, leaving large numbers of passengers behind at stops due to lack of capacity, until the NTA forced double deckers on them recently.

As a Corkonian living in Dublin, I can tell you that BE in Cork makes Dublin Bus look like a well run efficient bus service! That is really saying something.

At least things are starting to improve down in Cork with the new double deckers really helping with capacity and seemingly more to come, Leap Card, RTPI, new NTA bus stop info, Aircoach/GoBE, etc.

But still an awful long way to go to match even Dublin Bus, never mind other better European operators.

Yes, a BRT like the one in Belfast would be an excellent start for Cork (could be converted to Luas later). Hell that Belfast BRT would be great for Dublin too IMO.

Fully agree.

The bus service in Cork is deplorable, and that's reflected in the lack of bus use in Cork along with the incredible car dependence.

If the massive Docklands plan is to happen, car dependent Cork is simply going to have to have a significant overhaul.

man98

To be fair BÉ has cleaned up its act in Cork with routes being extended in more recent years because not everyone is going into the city centre. However, going into the future (and I've been a long time advocate of this) we do need to see light rail through the city linking Bishopstown to the railway station and out to Douglas. Traffic to Douglas is manic at rush hour around Cork. As well as this, Irish Rail need to push ahead with a station at Dunkettle, Blarney and elsewhere it was proposed - perhaps looking into opening a station in Blackpool. The car dependency in Cork is awful at rush hour. The Council has been fairly ok with bus lanes but the whole system does need to be shaken up a bit.

pigtown

The Dunkettle station was vetoed by the NRA, they have incredible power when it comes to projects which might negatively impact any of their roads. Blarney and Blackpool (and Monard) have become casualties of the recession and building crisis.

billyduk

marno21 wrote: »

Fully agree.

The bus service in Cork is deplorable, and that's reflected in the lack of bus use in Cork along with the incredible car dependence.

If the massive Docklands plan is to happen, car dependent Cork is simply going to have to have a significant overhaul.

Deplorable is an understatement. I live in a suburb and have a "choice" of two buses. One is a 25 minute walk away and the other doesn't show up half the time or is too full to stop.

A BRT from east to west is a must. Another from North to South would be a winner too. The City also needs its own TA to get rid of the nonsense that goes on in BE.

GerardKeating

pigtown wrote: »

The Dunkettle station was vetoed by the NRA, they have incredible power when it comes to projects which might negatively impact any of their roads. Blarney and Blackpool (and Monard) have become casualties of the recession and building crisis.

Who could have foreseen this when they merged the RPA into the NRA...

man98

pigtown wrote: »

The Dunkettle station was vetoed by the NRA, they have incredible power when it comes to projects which might negatively impact any of their roads. Blarney and Blackpool (and Monard) have become casualties of the recession and building crisis.

But with Blarney and Blackpool there is no reason they shouldn't have been built there's a market there. Monard I can see once the place is built...
Even if Dunkettle was vetoed, it's completely possible to operate a P+R out of Little Island or Glounthaune. Carrigtohill station is always deserted whenever I see it. There is a massive amount of potential there but it only comes with investment.

pigtown

I agree with everything you just said, as far as I know Irish Rail don't have the funds to build new infrastructure.

man98

pigtown wrote: »

I agree with everything you just said, as far as I know Irish Rail don't have the funds to build new infrastructure.

Sure in the case of the Luas Green Line extension, many stations were funded by the developers for planned estates - I think there is still an unopened station on the line for one. Perhaps IÉ should look at this approach for station building (I'm unsure how Monard was to be funded) as it would work out long term and really take the pressure off the roads in the morning. Coupling that with integrated ticketing and some sort of light rail/ BRT into the city centre + docklands from Kent and it could make a meaningful difference to the flow of traffic in and out of the city. While I would be quite critical of a BRT and favour light rail it is better than the current system at least, just as long as this isn't long-fingered either. Cork really is impressing me in terms of wanting to fix its traffic problems. On the Thursday of the Patrick's Day weekend it was taking buses up to 50 minutes to get from the Capwell Depot to the bus station. As almost any public transport user in Cork will tell you, the moment Cork fills with traffic it's absolute havoc on any bus arteries in and out of the centre.

LXFlyer

Irish Rail don't fund capital projects - that comes from government via the NTA.

pigtown

Well the city council charged a development fee on any new projects in the Blackpool area for the past number of years which was to go towards the cost of the station. This money won't be returned even though the project has been cancelled and I can't see further charges going down too well. I don't know if the same was the case for Blarney.

namloc1980

This stuff is pie in the sky. Cork has a tiny usage of public transport c.10% modal share. As someone mentioned Carrigtwohill has a very large car park at the train station with free parking. Most days less than 10 cars use it. People are absolutely wedded to their cars and won't give them up. Years of neglect means people don't trust public transport in Cork. This is why you see situations like 100k cars a day on the N40. With that level of underuse it is hard to see significant investment in pt in Cork.

man98

namloc1980 wrote: »

This stuff is pie in the sky. Cork has a tiny usage of public transport c.10% modal share. As someone mentioned Carrigtwohill has a very large car park at the train station with free parking. Most days less than 10 cars use it. People are absolutely wedded to their cars and won't give them up. Years of neglect means people don't trust public transport in Cork. This is why you see situations like 100k cars a day on the N40. With that level of underuse it is hard to see significant investment in pt in Cork.

I do agree that people are wedded to their cars, but the latest census results are suggesting that the proportion of people using public transport is rising. Parking in Cork costs min. €8 per day and that's ignoring fuel costs and the effort of finding a place. If there was an easily accessible network in the city centre and there are effortless connections in Kent Station or to the bus station then I fail to see why there would not be a considerable increase. Even if there was a 50% increase in pt in Cork, that's thousands of cars off the road every day.

namloc1980

man98 wrote: »

I do agree that people are wedded to their cars, but the latest census results are suggesting that the proportion of people using public transport is rising. Parking in Cork costs min. €8 per day and that's ignoring fuel costs and the effort of finding a place. If there was an easily accessible network in the city centre and there are effortless connections in Kent Station or to the bus station then I fail to see why there would not be a considerable increase. Even if there was a 50% increase in pt in Cork, that's thousands of cars off the road every day.

But there isn't an easily accessible network or seemless connections in Cork. Buses have to use the same road space as cars so it's just as quick going by car. As a result buses are not reliable and don't show up when expected.

Get the train into Kent and when you hop onto the 205 you have to go down the Lower Glanmire Rd and battle through the traffic on Water St and Horgan's Quay to head back in the direction of the city - the new entrance for the train station should help but have to wait and see the traffic plans.

The big issue here is "if". If we had a decent network and investment things would be much better. A Cork Transport Authority is necessary but not likely to happen. A high capacity East West transit corridor is very much needed but again won't happen. Government have rarely shown interest in Cork transport. Can't see that changing unfortunately.

man98

namloc1980 wrote: »

But there isn't an easily accessible network or seemless connections in Cork. Buses have to use the same road space as cars so it's just as quick going by car. As a result buses are not reliable and don't show up when expected.

Get the train into Kent and when you hop onto the 205 you have to go down the Lower Glanmire Rd and battle through the traffic on Water St and Horgan's Quay to head back in the direction of the city - the new entrance for the train station should help but have to wait and see the traffic plans.

The big issue here is "if". If we had a decent network and investment things would be much better. A Cork Transport Authority is necessary but not likely to happen. A high capacity East West transit corridor is very much needed but again won't happen. Government have rarely shown interest in Cork transport. Can't see that changing unfortunately.

But sure isn't a hypothetical east/west corridor what we're discussing here. I've backed one for years, I'm just hoping any proposal can gain traction. Cork is lucky in that there is plenty of space along Patrick St/ Washington St/ Mardyke Rd for a corridor, following the current bus lanes for the 205. Closing Patrick St to private cars is the next clear step, and it has been discussed at council level. I would be skeptical of the move but if it were in any way possible to build a BRT/ light rail Patrick St is a must.

bk

man98 wrote: »

But sure isn't a hypothetical east/west corridor what we're discussing here. I've backed one for years, I'm just hoping any proposal can gain traction. Cork is lucky in that there is plenty of space along Patrick St/ Washington St/ Mardyke Rd for a corridor, following the current bus lanes for the 205. Closing Patrick St to private cars is the next clear step, and it has been discussed at council level. I would be skeptical of the move but if it were in any way possible to build a BRT/ light rail Patrick St is a must.

Closing Patricks St to private cars was approved by the councillors last year and work is already underway on it:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/council-votes-for-car-ban-in-heart-of-cork-city-756686.html

http://www.eveningecho.ie/inlinecomment?p_p_id=DetailedStory_WAR_portalsuite&p_p_lifecycle=1&p_p_state=exclusive&p_p_mode=view&controlPanelCategory=portlet_DetailedStory_WAR_portalsuite&_DetailedStory_WAR_portalsuite_javax.portlet.action=doclickcount&_DetailedStory_WAR_portalsuite_uuid=72bbdbe3-8284-459f-a430-feb9e079a5a2&_DetailedStory_WAR_portalsuite_start=1&_DetailedStory_WAR_portalsuite_category=%2FPUBLICATIONS%2FEE-ECHO%2FNEWS&_DetailedStory_WAR_portalsuite_pubDate=2017-04-18T07%3A38%3A00Z

titan18

Cork is crying out for something tbh. You've got large workforces concentrated in several areas (Apple, Airport Business Park, Little Island, Mahon Point, City Centre/Docklands, Ballincollig/Ovens) that could be linked together and would take a large amount of traffic out from around Mahon Point, Kinsale Road Roundabout and Dunkettle.

Sure, it would cost a lot but with the plans for Docklands, it could generate a lot of revenue in new business if there was a viable traffic plan in place. Little Island has a good few empty buildings and areas for more but traffic has the place at a standstill at times. Something better serviced, either linking major suburbs to Kent Station for the train, or extending any possible East/West transit system from Mahon Point on to Little Island would go a long way to solving the traffic nightmare in the area.

Paddico

Wont happen for 30 years lads. Simple as that

GerardKeating

pigtown wrote: »

Well the city council charged a development fee on any new projects in the Blackpool area for the past number of years which was to go towards the cost of the station. This money won't be returned even though the project has been cancelled and I can't see further charges going down too well. I don't know if the same was the case for Blarney.

It might be returned, if someone take an action against them, Galway had a levy for a Barna By-pass, and were forced to return part of it once they abandoned the plan in 2011

KCAccidental

Thought this video was quite interesting. Autonomous Rail Transit. Battery operated with 10 minute charge allowing 25km of range. Runs on virtual rail sensors.

Looks like it might be a nice halfway house between BRT and LRT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i3aVMKBgFU

Sam Russell

KCAccidental wrote: »

Thought this video was quite interesting. Autonomous Rail Transit. Battery operated with 10 minute charge allowing 25km of range. Runs on virtual rail sensors.

Looks like it might be a nice halfway house between BRT and LRT.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i3aVMKBgFU

Sounds brilliant. It could run through the Port tunnel linking the airport with Dublin CC. Now there is an idea to link Swords - Airport - Dublin CC. Obviously it would suit shorter runs as it needs charging so Cork Limerick or Galway would be suitable. They are building a 6 km line in China next year.