Powermeter?

Daroxtar

I'm considering buying a Powermeter and am thinking of one of these 3
Stages Ultegra https://www.mantel.com/ie/stages-ultegra-6800-power-meter?r=L2llL3Bvd2VybWV0ZXJzI3N0YXJ0MQ==
4iiii https://www.probikekit.co.uk/cycling-power-meters/4iiii-precision-2.0-3d-power-meter-ultegra-6800/11273319.html
FSA Powerbox https://www.mantel.com/ie/fsa-powerbox-alloy-powermeter?r=L2llL3Bvd2VybWV0ZXJzI3N0YXJ0NA==

Stages and 4iiii- very little to chose between them apart from 4iiii being €60-€80 cheaper depending on where I buy. Also 4iiii seems to be a little more reliable going by some of the online comments I've read recently.

FSA- roughly Same price as Stages but measures both legs and my own chainrings will soon need replacing so factoring that in, this seems like a real bargain. However It's swapping my Ultegra Crankset for FSA. Are FSA chainrings as high a quality as Shimano? Also, it's a new product so not sure what the long term durability is like.

Any ideas?

ED E

Is it FSAs weird 19mm spindle or 24mm regular? If the former avvvvvvoid.

Daroxtar

30mm compatible with the 386Evo BB on my bike

Sarz91

I'd honestly go with the powerbox. It uses a rebadged power2max powermeter. There are the standard issues with a single sided powermeter that you should take into account before deciding. Even if you've a l/r balance of 50/50 this can change at threshold and neuromuscular zones meaning that the data is inconsistent. I've also heard of issues where pedalling style can effect the readings put out by stages.

Swanson

The power2max meter in the FSA is absolutely rock solid and everyone who owns one (including me) seems to love it. In particular, given our climate, it is completely waterproof which is more than can be said for the stages, and also the powertap g3 where grit will grind up the (non user replaceable) bearings in no time.
So, compared with €1,200 for a rotor with powermax, the FSA is a steal. You also avoid having to assemble the chainwheel yourself which can be tricky if you are not mechanically inclined or do not have access to a bench vice.
One detail: the power2max does not give a "proper" two sided measurement: it makes an estimate based on how fast the left crank accelerates relative to the right when you are pushing down on it. However, power balance is a gimmick: you are as you are, After a few days you will stop bothering to look at it.

Sarz91

Swanson wrote: »

The power2max meter in the FSA is absolutely rock solid and everyone who owns one (including me) seems to love it. In particular, given our climate, it is completely waterproof which is more than can be said for the stages, and also the powertap g3 where grit will grind up the (non user replaceable) bearings in no time.
So, compared with €1,200 for a rotor with powermax, the FSA is a steal. You also avoid having to assemble the chainwheel yourself which can be tricky if you are not mechanically inclined or do not have access to a bench vice.
One detail: the power2max does not give a "proper" two sided measurement: it makes an estimate based on how fast the left crank accelerates relative to the right when you are pushing down on it. However, power balance is a gimmick: you are as you are, After a few days you will stop bothering to look at it.

Just be aware that the FSA Powerbox is a bb386 evo crank. There are adapters available but it is worth noting.

Also, while the power2max doesn't give "proper" dual sided measurement it does measure total power which is something you obviously won't get with single sided PM's.

py

Have a 4iiii Ultegra for ~6 months, picked it up on a trip to the US. As it's my first PM I've nothing to compare it too but has helped me do some training which has improved my cycling. Has been a good tool for pacing through sportives/audax too.

Kaisr Sose

Sarz91 wrote: »

Also, while the power2max doesn't give "proper" dual sided measurement it does measure total power which is something you obviously won't get with single sided PM's.

From manufacturer;
The powerbox only measures on the left for now, but there’s going to be an update so both sides can be measured. This update is expected in August. The FSA Powerbox Alloy is ready for that update.

Sarz91

Kaisr Sose wrote: »

From manufacturer;
The powerbox only measures on the left for now, but there’s going to be an update so both sides can be measured. This update is expected in August. The FSA Powerbox Alloy is ready for that update.

I was talking about power2max and their powermeter. Essentially it'll be the same thing with the powerbox. Send it in for a software update and you'll be able to see power on both sides.

Without the update youll just continue to get total power as opposed to split power.

Daroxtar

OK, went with the FSA from Bike24 for just under €600.

Crocked

That FSA really is a bargin. I've been mulling over getting a P2M so I don't have to start faffing about with new bottom brackets or adapters and the hassle it'd cause moving between bikes. Maybe the faffing is worth paying 400 quid less though!!

Daroxtar

Crocked wrote: »

That FSA really is a bargin. I've been mulling over getting a P2M so I don't have to start faffing about with new bottom brackets or adapters and the hassle it'd cause moving between bikes. Maybe the faffing is worth paying 400 quid less though!!

Can be got for around €550 on one of the German sites with 52/36 and 170mm cranks. Different size Chainrings come in around €80-90 for the pair.

Lemon3

I went with a Stages Ultegra last October after doing all the figures and analysis. I used it exclusively indoors for the winter as i dipped my toe into the world of indoor training for the first time, mostly using Zwift. The Stages provided very consistent data and whether the exact numbers were right or wrong, who knows, but with the efforts with my training over the winter months and 1500 km, showed as gradual increases in my FTP. I honestly can't fault it and one of the reasons i went with a left arm meter, was the redundancy of good equipment was reduced to a minimum. If the Stages ever packs in, it will be a simple job to put my old crank arm back on and return the Stages, not an easy thing to do with some of the other options. I've been using it on the road since February, in the worst of weather and had no issues with water ingress. Battery life seems good too, only replaced it recently for the first time since i got it. Hope that helps

LCD

Stay away from Powermeter 24. Bought a Stages from them in 2015. It broke twice & I eventually upgraded to a Quarq, also from them. It had to be sent back once as well.

Powermeter 24's service was absolutely appalling. They don't stand over the products, just say "we don't make them so we are waiting on the manufacturer". No offer of a replacement unit or temporary unit, emails take forever to get a reply, don't refund for shipping faulty products (under guarantee) back to them.

Daroxtar

Arrived today. Installed it in a few minutes and paired instantly with the Garmin.



Gave it a quick test on the turbo, compared it to the readings the Tacx Vortex was giving out. There's a good bit of difference from what I can see although that's just initial testing from a cold start. The two sets of figures might be closer once I properly calibrate them after a warm up.

harringtonp

Looks great and unlike my own older P2M it doesn't show obvious signs of including a power meter.

What was the total cost including postage from bike24 and did you get to weigh it accurately ?

Daroxtar

Meant to follow up on that. The Ultegra Crankset weighed in at 721g (listed weight was 694). The FSA came in at 919g but the BB didn't need the 30/24mm adapters so that saves 12g. All in, an increase if 187g. Not a featherweight by any means but I can shave a few grams off myself so I'm not bothered.

I bought through Bike 24 using a UK parcel motel address and sterling. It came in at €587 +€3.95 delivery but now I see Garys Cycles in Sligo have a 50-34 /172.5 model including delivery for €579.

I had a good spin on the bike last night so this got a proper test. At first I thought it was reading high but after 10-15 minutes it settled down. I might have been unconsciously pushing a bit harder on fresh legs into a headwind so it might have been right. Either way, it does a Zero offset every time you stop pedalling for more than 2 seconds so after a bit of freewheeling I noticed the power levelling out a bit. I did a few very short sprints and some out of the saddle bursts up little ramps. I used 3second average power so there seemed to be a few seconds of a lag between putting the power down and it showing up on the Garmin.
I put in a good burst for 20 minutes on a fast stretch, a kind of half arsed FTP test. It's actually very hard to maintain even wattage when you are getting drafts from passing cars and trucks. My FTP according to the turbo is 270. Garmin says my FTP based on last night's effort was 240 but as I said, I found myself easing up plenty of times when I got a bit of a push along so there's probably not much difference between the power meter and turbo. I'd say I'll get a better reading when I do a flat out effort on Stocking lane or one of the other similar length climbs.

One other thing I noticed is that I need a new BB. I knocked plenty of creaks out of it last night so that'll have to be done soon.

Crocked

I went and pulled the trigger on the P2M type S. It killed me a bit knowing I could nearly get two powerboxes for the price of one type S. In the end the thoughts of messing with bottom bracket standards decided it.

Messier as well than the powerbox as you have to put it all together but it's fairly handy.

Just on the weights you got above Daroxtor. I weighed my Ultegra crank (52/36) and they came in at 697g, the Type S with Rotor 24 cranks came in at 818

Eveything paired up with the garmin easily and hope to get out for a spin tomorrow evening. Fingers crossed bits don't start dropping off halfway up a hill!

Quigs Snr

Crocked wrote: »

I went and pulled the trigger on the P2M type S. It killed me a bit knowing I could nearly get two powerboxes for the price of one type S. In the end the thoughts of messing with bottom bracket standards decided it.

Messier as well than the powerbox as you have to put it all together but it's fairly handy.

Just on the weights you got above Daroxtor. I weighed my Ultegra crank (52/36) and they came in at 697g, the Type S with Rotor 24 cranks came in at 818

Eveything paired up with the garmin easily and hope to get out for a spin tomorrow evening. Fingers crossed bits don't start dropping off halfway up a hill!

If you installed the crank arm to the spider yourself then they might unless you used the recommended loctite...

Daroxtar

Crocked wrote: »

Just on the weights you got above Daroxtor. I weighed my Ultegra crank (52/36) and they came in at 697g, the Type S with Rotor 24 cranks came in at 818

My Ultegra Crankset was 50-34, I'm surprised that it was heavier that the 52-36 and indeed that it was so much over the claimed weight. From just handling the FSA, it's fairly obvious that a good bit of the extra weight in the Powerbox is in the crank arms. Anyways, I swapped out my BB last night and put on new pedals and that cut another 40g off the bike
One last thing, I re checked my power from my spin the other night and realised I miscalculated my FTP so it's actually a good bit closer to the results from the Turbo sessions. Hopefully I'll get a proper, uninterrupted hill climb at the weekend to give me a more accurate figure.

Crocked

Crocked wrote: »

I went and pulled the trigger on the P2M type S. It killed me a bit knowing I could nearly get two powerboxes for the price of one type S. In the end the thoughts of messing with bottom bracket standards decided it.

Messier as well than the powerbox as you have to put it all together but it's fairly handy.

Just on the weights you got above Daroxtor. I weighed my Ultegra crank (52/36) and they came in at 697g, the Type S with Rotor 24 cranks came in at 818

Eveything paired up with the garmin easily and hope to get out for a spin tomorrow evening. Fingers crossed bits don't start dropping off halfway up a hill!

Quigs Snr wrote: »

If you installed the crank arm to the spider yourself then they might unless you used the recommended loctite...

Thats an interesting one. I did use loctite threadlock but only because I watched a vid that P2M had on youtube about installing it onto a Cervelo. There was nothing in the documentation sent or in any vids Rotor have about using it (fair enough for Rotor as normally you wouldn't go near the spider)

Only concern is I kinda had to bodge a clamp/wrench to fit over the rotor tool for tightening that. I'll check all the bolts again after the spin this evening.

Crocked

Daroxtar wrote: »

My Ultegra Crankset was 50-34, I'm surprised that it was heavier that the 52-36 and indeed that it was so much over the claimed weight. From just handling the FSA, it's fairly obvious that a good bit of the extra weight in the Powerbox is in the crank arms. Anyways, I swapped out my BB last night and put on new pedals and that cut another 40g off the bike
One last thing, I re checked my power from my spin the other night and realised I miscalculated my FTP so it's actually a good bit closer to the results from the Turbo sessions. Hopefully I'll get a proper, uninterrupted hill climb at the weekend to give me a more accurate figure.

Cruagh from the bridge up to the Featherbeds seems to be a popular one for FTP testing.

mossym

riding uphill gives a higher number than you'd hold on the flat. not the most accurate way of measuring your ftp, great for inflating the ego though. find a flat bit of road and use that instead

Crocked

I thought a flat FTP test would be more for people doing TT or flatter spins, if most of your spins/training are in the hills would a hillier FTP test be more appropriate or as you say is it just willy waving?

There is a club TT in a few weeks that I'll ride so can use as the flat FTP test.

I have an FTP on the turbo from a powertap but I believe they read a little low compared to outdoors. Probably do the hill FTP the week after the TT so as fitness doesn't change between the tests. Will be interesting to see how the various environments affect it

I think it was GCN that had a vid were you tested across 4 different efforts to give yourself an idea of what power you can put out for different times to use in training. Possibly it was 10sec, 1min, 5 min and 20 min.

Daroxtar

I live in a flat area but do about half of my cycling on the hills and am aiming at the minute for some proper mountains in September so I reckon the climbing FTP will do for what I want it to do. I need to know what I can sustain for 60-90 minutes and be able to do the same again an hour later. Once that holiday is over I'll be using it more to get myself race fit (for if I ever get around to racing....)

Anyway, if my climbing FTP is a few watts higher than the flat one and I use that for my interval sessions will it do me any harm?

joey100

What test are you's planning to do to test your FTP?

Daroxtar

Standard FTP test- a good warm up with a couple of minutes flat out, a few minutes recovery then 20 minutes as hard as I can sustain. Doing them indoors I'd use Zwift or Tacx Trainer Software, they have built in FTP tests. Outside probably climb Cruagh or maybe Bohernabreena/Ballinascorney. Upload the ride to Strava and either the stravistix add on or Veloviewer will tell you your maximum 20 minute effort and give you the FTP.
Tbh I won't be doing exactly 20 minutes on the climb, I'll give it everything till I get to the top and that will be over 20 minutes so my result will probably be slightly off but I just want a figure that's reasonably close so I have something to work with.

Crocked

Got around to doing some testing in the last week. Till now I've just been collecting data and looking at it post ride. Too new to it to really use it on the fly at the moment and using HR for pacing still. Although starting to look at the power figures on rides so i can get a feel as to what a given hr corresponds to power wise

I've done a 40k TT, an 8 min hilly test, 20 mins turbo test and a hill 20min test. 40k TT was a few weeks ago but the other 3 were done over last 8 days. There's a powertap on the turbo whereas I've a p2m for outdoor. I've not put both on the same bike at the same time yet but if both are working they should be close enough.

On the TT I had mechanical issues (partially snapped hanger), so with skipping gears and poor focus I never got in a groove. Both time and power wise I've written it off as useful. It came in though interestingly at the same ftp as I had for the turbo at the time.

In terms of ftp my figures are turbo 254, 20 min hill 270, 8 min hill 282. The xert app on the garmin puts it at 281 same as 8 min test, whereas strava estimates it at 270 same as the 20 min hill test.

For me anyway the 8 min test is too short, I'm better at shorter stuff so this skews things and overestimates my ftp. I reckon the 20 min test would be close enough

Also Power2Max have a decent sale on at the moment if anyone is in the market.