Removal of half day

LegacyUser

I'm looking for some advice regarding a course of action I'm considering pursuing with the team I manage.

Monthly, immediately prior to a stock take, its traditional that my team get a paid half day. This isn't a contractual entitlement, nor is it on the rota or guaranteed anywhere. It's simply a practice that has been in place for a number of years, though it's not written into any employment contracts etc.

Recently following the half day, a member of my team was guilty of what could be construed as gross misconduct (I'm not going to elaborate). I turned a blind eye on the basis that had I raised the issue, the person in question would have been sacked.

My intention now is to cancel the next half day for everyone on the basis of this guy's actions being facilitated by the half day. The option of cancelling only for him isn't possible, as I'd then have to cite a reason and go down the disciplinary route. This on the other hand isn't so much a punishment but a loss of privilege

I'm looking for advice on pursuing this course of action, and the likely long term repercussions on morale etc. While the actions of the peraon in question should not merit sacking imo, my employer would have sacked him, hence why I let it go however I need to ensure this isn't repeated.

Would appreciate opinions on the course of action I'm pursuing

silent_spark

You're protecting a member of staff who is guilty of gross misconduct, while removing privileges from staff who had nothing to do with it? Are you seriously considering this? This is a terrible idea, the potential impact on the morale of the other staff is bad enough, but why are you circumventing your workplace's disciplinary rules by not reporting this person? You're risking your own position on top of everything.

micar

So, you're going to punish all because of the actions of one.

Not a good idea.

If you do this, you'll have to explain why and people on your team will go over your head and the management will find out what happened.

The_Valeyard

Bad idea.

You will become enemy no.1 very quickly.

Think back to your school days it's like a teacher punishing the entire class for the actions of one kid.

super_furry

Sounds like an awful idea. Is your intention to get the member of your team who was guilty of "gross misconduct" bullied and harassed out of the job so you don't have to deal with it yourself?

It's a primary school way of dealing with a grown-up problem.

LegacyUser

silent_spark wrote: »

You're protecting a member of staff who is guilty of gross misconduct, while removing privileges from staff who had nothing to do with it? Are you seriously considering this? This is a terrible idea, the potential impact on the morale of the other staff is bad enough, but why are you circumventing your workplace's disciplinary rules by not reporting this person? You're risking your own position on top of everything.

Without elaborating too much, taking action was pretty much out of the question. It would have made my life pretty difficult, and certainly wouldn't have been a course of action that my management would have been too happy with, irrespective of it being policy.

A can of worms really, bizarre as it sounds.

C3PO

silent_spark wrote: »

You're protecting a member of staff who is guilty of gross misconduct, while removing privileges from staff who had nothing to do with it? Are you seriously considering this? This is a terrible idea, the potential impact on the morale of the other staff is bad enough, but why are you circumventing your workplace's disciplinary rules by not reporting this person? You're risking your own position on top of everything.

As per the above - a terrible idea! Why should the other members of the team be punished for the actions of one of their peers!
However, I also think you should consider your own position! Is the guy in question aware that you know about his misconduct? If it happens again where does that leave you? "Ah but I did it before and you did nothing about it"! You could very quickly find yourself in a very difficult position! I think you either need to escalate it or ignore it!

uck51js9zml2yt

Did he break the rules in work or while on his half day?

If in work then you need to deal with him directly and not punish everyone else.
If outside of work then it's not your problem...it was on his time.

beechwood55

You can be absolutely that this will backfire on you - badly. One of team will make a complaint to managment and your handling (or mishandling) of this will cause issues for you.
And why should innocent parties be affected because you cannot manage this other individual in the appropriate manner. ?

LegacyUser

silent_spark wrote: »

You're protecting a member of staff who is guilty of gross misconduct, while removing privileges from staff who had nothing to do with it? Are you seriously considering this? This is a terrible idea, the potential impact on the morale of the other staff is bad enough, but why are you circumventing your workplace's disciplinary rules by not reporting this person? You're risking your own position on top of everything.

Taking action for the specific offence would create a huge amount of problem for me, both from my team and management. It would make life very uncomfortable and certainly wouldn't be a course that would aid morale, or my future prospects.

I agree with you that it's wrong on the face of it, but taking action for the specific issue in question would leave me without any support from either above or below. Without that, I can't run my team effectively.

LegacyUser

micar wrote: »

So, you're going to punish all because of the actions of one.

Not a good idea.

If you do this, you'll have to explain why and people on your team will go over your head and the management will find out what happened.

My managers will find out. I'll tell them and I know they'll support my decision not to go down the disciplinary route.

LegacyUser

super_furry wrote: »

Sounds like an awful idea. Is your intention to get the member of your team who was guilty of "gross misconduct" bullied and harassed out of the job so you don't have to deal with it yourself?

It's a primary school way of dealing with a grown-up problem.

My intention is demonstrate that his behaviour is unacceptable. The person is question will be getting bollocked.

I want to show that there are tangible repercussions for this sort of behaviour. I'm not sure how else this can be demonstrated

LegacyUser

For a bit more clarity, and to address other replies together:

The guy involved finished for his half day, went to a portacabin on site and got pissed. This would be a bit of a routine on the half day, has been for years, only on this occasion the person in question caused a scene when leaving

My management are aware of the practice and happy to turn a blind eye

While I obviously noticed the scene, if I'm ever questioned on why I didn't act, I'll claim I didn't know he was drunk and hence only warmed him about his conduct.

Had I acted, the person in question would have been sacked. Instead, he'll be warned this time, and I will go down the disciplinary route next time.

My predecessors turned a blind eye to this sort of thing. I've recently moved to this dept from another and want to put a stop to it. I accept the disciplinary route straight away would have achieved this, however given that a blind eye had been turned by my predecessor, I feel a warning should first be given.

Regarding removal of the half day, given the number of replies saying how bad an idea it is, perhaps it is misjudged. Certainly I'll give it more thought

toadfly

No matter what happened, punishing the whole team for one idiot is a ridiculous idea. Give him a written warning without dismissal?

This is a crazy idea

Kirk Van Houten

Punish him. Give him the worst or menial jobs, or do the right thing and stop boozing on site for your team. Would love to know what job/industry allows a paid half day for boozing on site.

LegacyUser

If I make it official, he gets sacked. It's not an breach that I can give an official warning for

Stheno

Take away his half day for three months

LegacyUser

Kirk Van Houten wrote: »

Punish him. Give him the worst or menial jobs, or do the right thing and stop boozing on site for your team. Would love to know what job/industry allows a paid half day for boozing on site.

Singling him for the worst jobs could lead to the accusation of bullying, hence I won't be doing that.

I'm thinking now that just a bollockin lg for him, and a reminder to all about the policy is the best route to take. Certainly I intend on making everyone aware that future breaches will be going down the disciplinary route

LegacyUser

Stheno wrote: »

Take away his half day for three months

Could possibly leave me open to accusations of bullying, as I can't justify why only his half day has been removed

Dravokivich

His problem is not your problem. Ignoring what you've got to do, makes it your problem. Sort it out properly. If he loses his job so be it.

Civil Service

Civil Service wrote: »

The guy involved finished for his half day, went to a portacabin on site and got pissed. This would be a bit of a routine on the half day, has been for years, only on this occasion the person in question caused a scene when leaving

My management are aware of the practice and happy to turn a blind eye.

Civil Service wrote: »

My intention now is to cancel the next half day for everyone on the basis of this guy's actions being facilitated by the half day. The option of cancelling only for him isn't possible, as I'd then have to cite a reason and go down the disciplinary route. This on the other hand isn't so much a punishment but a loss of privilege

Your company allows drinking on site, functions on traditions and common practices and turning blind eyes but to address this person's behaviour suddenly everything has to be official, what kind of place is this?

Practically speaking, withdraw this person's half-day privilege and put an end to the drinking on site but allow the other team members to have the half-day.

Apart from that, your company's policies require a helluva lot more indepth discussion.

LegacyUser

Dravokivich wrote: »

His problem is not your problem. Ignoring what you've got to do, makes it your problem. Sort it out properly. If he loses his job so be it.

I'm not ignoring the issue because I'm taking action where previously others haven't. I don't think a sacking without a prior warning in justified though and it's a course of action that would have significant repercussions, both from those above and below me.

As is, warning him now will either put an end to it or justify me going down the disciplinary route next time

Big Nasty

Deleted User wrote: »

Your company allows drinking on site, functions on traditions and common practices and turning blind eyes but to address this person's behaviour suddenly everything has to be official, what kind of place is this?

Sounds like Dail Eireann?

Mooooo

Must be Leo

gouche

Given the OP's username is Civil Service, I'm going to take a guess that this is a public body. Wouldn't be the least bit surprised.

But to answer OP, don't take everyone's privilege away because of the actions of one.
Collective punishment doesn't work and will only lead to bad feelings.

LegacyUser

Deleted User wrote: »

Your company allows drinking on site, functions on traditions and common practices and turning blind eyes but to address this person's behaviour suddenly everything has to be official, what kind of place is this?

Practically speaking, withdraw this person's half-day privilege and put an end to the drinking on site but allow the other team members to have the half-day.

Apart from that, your company's policies require a helluva lot more indepth discussion.

The company's policies are what they are unfortunately. I was looking to gauge opinion on taking away the half day, and I've certainly got that. Obviously it's misjudged.

I'm trying to drag my team into 2017 one stage at a time. I'm reasonably satisfied now that unofficially warning him about his conduct, and making it known that further breaches will result in disciplinary action is the best course of action to take

Mini850

Civil Service wrote: »

For a bit more clarity, and to address other replies together:

The guy involved finished for his half day, went to a portacabin on site and got pissed. This would be a bit of a routine on the half day, has been for years, only on this occasion the person in question caused a scene when leaving

My predecessors turned a blind eye to this sort of thing.

Are you effin serious??

If this happened where I work (pharma company) It would be instant dismissal.

LegacyUser

Mini850 wrote: »

Are you effin serious??

If this happened where I work (pharma company) It would be instant dismissal.

As would be the case in previous companies I worked for. There is an entirely different culture here however that I'm trying to change

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Punishing the entire team due to an issue with one particular team member is wrong IMHO.

As Stheno suggested, take away his half day for X months.

Out of interest, has he/she apologised and shown regret for their behaviour?

LegacyUser

Harrison Numerous Seeker wrote: »

Punishing the entire team due to an issue with one particular team member is wrong IMHO.

As Stheno suggested, take away his half day for X months.

Out of interest, has he/she apologised and shown regret for their behaviour?

I haven't seen him yet.

Graham

Tough call OP, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Could you give this individual the opportunity to 'volunteer' to work the next few half days in lieu of a more formal approach?

super_furry

Civil Service wrote: »

I'm not ignoring the issue because I'm taking action where previously others haven't. I don't think a sacking without a prior warning in justified though and it's a course of action that would have significant repercussions, both from those above and below me.

As is, warning him now will either put an end to it or justify me going down the disciplinary route next time

So do that, give him a verbal warning. Not sure why everyone else has to be dragged into it.

Dravokivich

Civil Service wrote: »

I'm not ignoring the issue because I'm taking action where previously others haven't. I don't think a sacking without a prior warning in justified though and it's a course of action that would have significant repercussions, both from those above and below me.

As is, warning him now will either put an end to it or justify me going down the disciplinary route next time

You are taking the wrong action. As your action is not going to be about him, if you are enforcing something onto the entire team, that has nothing to do with the team.

I wasn't suggesting sacking him now. Eventually it may be required. You better off starting the disciplinary route now to support the need for it if it comes to it. Instead of delaying it, because it's going to take up a lot more of your time.

BetsyEllen

Surely taking away the half day from everyone will require more explanation to higher management than taking it away from one person for a while?

I'm really shocked that you would even consider doing this.
Why on earth would you take away something good from people that have done nothing wrong?

If this was me, I would just be having a very stern chat with the person in question, explaining that you are not taking it further as they would lose their job. But that you are majorly p'd off and their actions were completely unacceptable.
I would then tell them they won't be getting paid for the afternoon they were on site getting p!ssed OR that they will be required to 'volunteer' on the next half day for the afternoon and you'll find something for them to do.
That is their punishment and if anything like this happens again, you will take it further.

It's really mean to even consider taking away the half day for everyone and is not an adequate punishment for the person who has actually done wrong.
I'd be having a think on your management skills here, this is not good leadership.

Cork Lass

Civil Service wrote: »

I'm looking for some advice regarding a course of action I'm considering pursuing with the team I manage.

Monthly, immediately prior to a stock take, its traditional that my team get a paid half day. This isn't a contractual entitlement, nor is it on the rota or guaranteed anywhere. It's simply a practice that has been in place for a number of years, though it's not written into any employment contracts etc.

Recently following the half day, a member of my team was guilty of what could be construed as gross misconduct (I'm not going to elaborate). I turned a blind eye on the basis that had I raised the issue, the person in question would have been sacked.

My intention now is to cancel the next half day for everyone on the basis of this guy's actions being facilitated by the half day. The option of cancelling only for him isn't possible, as I'd then have to cite a reason and go down the disciplinary route. This on the other hand isn't so much a punishment but a loss of privilege

I'm looking for advice on pursuing this course of action, and the likely long term repercussions on morale etc. While the actions of the peraon in question should not merit sacking imo, my employer would have sacked him, hence why I let it go however I need to ensure this isn't repeated.

Would appreciate opinions on the course of action I'm pursuing

If it's the case that you need to come here to get advice on how to deal with this issue then possibly you are in a role which is above your capabilities. Your suggestion of punishing the whole team is beyond wrong.

weldoninhio

Civil Service wrote: »

Singling him for the worst jobs could lead to the accusation of bullying, hence I won't be doing that.

I'm thinking now that just a bollockin lg for him, and a reminder to all about the policy is the best route to take. Certainly I intend on making everyone aware that future breaches will be going down the disciplinary route

So you are worried about being called a bully, yet have no worries about people drinking on site?? What happens if someone gets hurt or injured while on the beer in work?? Do you think the higher ups will step in and say "we'll take the blame, we knew they were drinking"? or do you think you'd be taking the brunt of it?

I'd have him out the door asap, and the drinking on site would stop straight away. If people don't like it they can leave. If they are on a half day, why not hit a local bar??

southstar

If you punish the whole team you can guarantee that somewhere down the line there will be a kickback and this issue will have to be dragged out in the open.You'll then become a scapegoat for not reporting the matter and failing to take remedial action.Have a stern frank conversation with the guy and make him and other team members aware of of the nature of the privilege afforded to them.Do these guys have to stay on site for the whole day.The drinking is likely to cause further problems down the line whether it be an incident on site or afterwards.

05eaftqbrs9jlh

Cork Lass wrote: »

If it's the case that you need to come here to get advice on how to deal with this issue then possibly you are in a role which is above your capabilities. Your suggestion of punishing the whole team is beyond wrong.

A person in a managerial position in the Civil Service, underqualified?! Well, I never.

LegacyUser

BetsyEllen wrote: »

Surely taking away the half day from everyone will require more explanation to higher management than taking it away from one person for a while?

I'm really shocked that you would even consider doing this.
Why on earth would you take away something good from people that have done nothing wrong?

If this was me, I would just be having a very stern chat with the person in question, explaining that you are not taking it further as they would lose their job. But that you are majorly p'd off and their actions were completely unacceptable.
I would then tell them they won't be getting paid for the afternoon they were on site getting p!ssed OR that they will be required to 'volunteer' on the next half day for the afternoon and you'll find something for them to do.
That is their punishment and if anything like this happens again, you will take it further.

It's really mean to even consider taking away the half day for everyone and is not an adequate punishment for the person who has actually done wrong.
I'd be having a think on your management skills here, this is not good leadership.

As above, this course wouldnt be an issue for management.

It's not a case of wanting to take away from others whom have done no wrong. It's a case of being left with little alternative.

As you mention, a stern chat was going to happen any way.

Regarding my management skills, the fact Im posting looking for advice on this particular course of action, something I have never done previously, suggests I am considering my own ability to manage

Bandana boy

Just start an investigation into the drinking and follow the procedures layed out in your job.
This way everything is above board , and he wil have ample opportunity to contest the decision and cite precedence

Zenify

pretty sure if it becomes standard practice you cannot take it away. I remember working in HR (a few weeks) and one of the cases was an employee was getting paid €18.50 instead of €8.50 per hour. worked out a lot of money before anyone realised (3yrs later). contract and everything said 8.50, company couldn't do a thing even had to keep paying her 18.50.

Graham

Zenify wrote: »

pretty sure if it becomes standard practice you cannot take it away.

I think you'd struggle to argue that half a day to get sh1tfaced at work had become one of your employment terms so should be retained.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Cork Lass wrote: »

If it's the case that you need to come here to get advice on how to deal with this issue then possibly you are in a role which is above your capabilities.
....

How is that constructive advise? As a manager, you do not magically know the correct course of action for every situation. In particular where there is an extraordinary situation as seems to be the case here.

This is a 'work problems' forum for a reason.

Edit: Also, it appears the OP cannot go to her own management for advise as they don't want to know.

seamus

Civil Service wrote: »

As would be the case in previous companies I worked for. There is an entirely different culture here however that I'm trying to change

This would seem like a good opportunity to nip the root cause of the issue and change the culture without actually making anyone unhappy.

That is, give them the half day but tell them they have to go offsite if they want to get pissed.

If "tradition" has involved management providing the booze, then stick a tab at the bar in the nearest pub.

pilly

I think OP that the bigger issue you have is people drinking on site. It's completely the companies fault that this happened if they allow this carry on.

That's the issue you need to deal with straight away. Take it up with higher management if you have to but it has to stop. It's not acceptable to say that it's okay unless someone gets lairy with the drink. They shouldn't be drinking on site, full stop.

BetsyEllen

Civil service wrote: »

As above, this course wouldnt be an issue for management.

It's not a case of wanting to take away from others whom have done no wrong. It's a case of being left with little alternative.

As you mention, a stern chat was going to happen any way.

Regarding my management skills, the fact Im posting looking for advice on this particular course of action, something I have never done previously, suggests I am considering my own ability to manage

I'm confused - you're said that you can't take away just one persons half day as you'd have to explain why and then the person in question would get sacked.
But now you're saying that this wouldn't be an issue for management.
If it's not, then why can't you just punish him accordingly?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

Ashbx

Tell the entire team that the half days will continue but that everyone must vacate the site at 1pm (or whatever the time may be)! So if they want to go drinking, they can go to the local pub.

Pull him aside and tell him he is blessed to still have his job and if anything like this happens again, you will have to go to management above you and let them deal with it. Its a clear enough warning without throwing him in the sh*t!

Although, if you are so set on removing this tradition, I don't see why you are even giving him a chance. Nip it in the bud now if that's the way you want to continue!

Eric Cartman

Civil Service wrote: »

If I make it official, he gets sacked. It's not an breach that I can give an official warning for

You say that people usually go to the portakabin and get pissed for the other half of the day.

take this person aside, advise them that it was unacceptable, that next time you have 0 choice but to go down the full disciplinary route (which would lead to sacking) and advise (in a pretend friendly kind of way) that for the next 2-3 stock takes that they should perhaps take that half day off site rather than drinking in the portakabin just until this 'blows over' with higher ups.

Lady is a tramp

Just to clarify, is it tradition that the whole team get p*ssed together in the portakabin on these half days, or just this particular guy?

bee06

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Just to clarify, is it tradition that the whole team get p*ssed together in the portakabin on these half days, or just this particular guy?

I read it as it's grand for anyone to get pissed in the portacabin, just don't cause a scene when you are leaving which is what this guy did.

Seve OB

So I was on a half day recently (was great, we got paid and all for the full day) and before I left work a few of us hooked up in the portacabin and skulled a few tinnies. By the time I left for home I was micky monk and don't really remember what happened on the way out, but I have a feeling I might have made a bit of a show of myself...........:o