recording, proof for workplace bullying

crusoe

I know there was posts like this before, but I couldn't find the answer in them.
Trying to cut it short. I have problem with a college for long now, he one time threatened me in front of my boss (I smash your face) but he only had to apologize for it. We work for years now together and time to time he start messing with me (insults, comments, speaking very rude)

His latest act (I try write it shortly) I was working in the back, he came to me saying he will do a phone call and "you stay in front" (he means of the shop).

I told him I'm busy here (as I was) and he can stay in front phone there... he went crazy on my answer and started to call me everything then called me for fight to the back (where is no camera) to 'come on lets play this' etc..

he did this for few minutes... pissed me so much I went there told him ok here I am hit me ... I expected him to stop, not what he did...

and then bum he hit me in the shoulder against the wall... then happened (I learnt this word recently) they call it a bit of 'scuffling' then I retreated, he followed me kept insulting etc. but stopped physicily attacking

I Did a complain, no camera, no withness result 'we cant do anyhing', we had to sign a paper we are 'happy to come back to work'...

My boss said he belives me but cant do nothing, I told him im scared work with him especially where no cctv in the shop. My boss let me stay in front of shop (where is camera). Ok, there he wont attack me there but he keeps insulting me, when I move to front (if he goes to back) or back (when he goes to front) he telling me 'Run Forrest Run' and similar comments. I call it bullying but my boss say he need proof, witness. The guy is smart enough to not to do it in front of witnesses.

This is when my question comes, can I use a 'spy/flash/usb' recording device (in my pocket hidden) to record these converstations, in order to protect myself from bullying, is it legal or no. I feel scared and i'm shaking when I have to work with him. I went home sick twice since that.

(Yes I know the most people's answer: look for a new job, please dont tell that kind of answers)

As far I know you can record your own phonecalls (if one side of the converstation gives permission..and of course to yourself you will a permission)... is this rule apply to other recording? recording my own conversation in workplace?

Im not planning to use it every time just when I feel bad, when I feel something bad is in the air..

Thank you

ps. I already bought the device, I already tested it, and I already got 'catched' my collegues saw my recorder on the desk where I left it on the top of my phone... They figured out what is it.

And now now mobile is allowed in the shop. The boss banned them from the shop (as Boss told me he trust me he said I can have my recorder in my pocket IF i feel safer with that..). So now he knows I have this device, but don't know whether I have it in my pocket or now, and record or no.

The question again is it legal/illegal to record at workplace your own (Regular) conversations. Not a meeting or anything like that.

Wanderer2010

Forget all about flash devices, locations and your pussy of a manager who wont do a thing to help you being physically and mentally bullied.

Walk into your Garda station and say you want to make a complaint of harassment and tell them everything you told us. Yes, you are still in a position of having no proof but its officially on file at that point and when that's done, walk up to your manager and tell them you have notified the Gardaí of your concerns and that if there are any follow up incidents you will be going back to them.

It absolutely infuriates me when I read stories of people getting bullied like this and spineless managers who do sweet fcuk all about it. You wouldn't put up with this at home so why put up with it at work?

crusoe

My quesiton is still same if anyone can answer? Can I get in trouble if I record my collegue using obscenity, calling me names, or threatening me things like that? Also what If i record it 'secretly' does it make a difference ?

crusoe

crusoe wrote: »

My quesiton is still same if anyone can answer? Can I get in trouble if I record my collegue using obscenity, calling me names, or threatening me things like that? Also what If i record it 'secretly' does it make a difference ?

When the investigation finished I had to sign a paper that was written by my boss (or his solicitor) in what I declare that I am happy to come back to work.

They also added to it that "I am not going to report this at Garda". I signed this so I can't go to Garda. (I guess).

(I wonder by the way why I have to sing papers like that, what is written/printed by my boss and it is written in 1st person like I was the one who drew it up)

SwD

I would say record it, but don't instigate any altercation. That is, don't go looking for trouble.

If you feel like he's getting fired up, retreat to the bathroom, hit record with the speaker sticking out of your pocket and come back and see what happens.

You will now have proof for your employer to act.

I would agree with Wanderer2010. Make a formal complaint, just so the gardai have it on record. tell them you just want to make them aware of it

delboythedub

Very very poor standard of supervision from the"Boss". My policy would be to tell your co worker that you work together or he works his way out the front door. End

Unpossible

crusoe wrote: »

When the investigation finished I had to sign a paper that was written by my boss (or his solicitor) in what I declare that I am happy to come back to work.

They also added to it that "I am not going to report this at Garda". I signed this so I can't go to Garda. (I guess).

(I wonder by the way why I have to sing papers like that, what is written/printed by my boss and it is written in 1st person like I was the one who drew it up)

I can't see how that will have any legal standing, at worst you can claim you didn't understand what it meant (I'm assuming you're not a native english speaker) and that you were coerced into signing it.

I'm getting the impression your boss is full of BS and is only telling you what you want to hear. They clearly are on the bully's side and are doing whatever they can to facilitate it.

johndoe99

crusoe wrote: »

They also added to it that "I am not going to report this at Garda". I signed this so I can't go to Garda. (I guess)

Surely that can't be legal.

crusoe

johndoe99 wrote: »

Surely that can't be legal.

My boss said and his solicitor wrote that letter that I had to sign. It has to be a legal thing. I just guess a lawyer wont do something illegal.

Unpossible

crusoe wrote: »

My boss said and his solicitor wrote that letter that I had to sign. It has to be a legal thing. I just guess a lawyer wont do something illegal.

Did you get a copy of the letter? How do you know a solicitor wrote it?

What you described happening with the co-worker out back is straight up assault.
It might be worth seeking legal advice for yourself or talking with citizen information.

crusoe

Unpossible wrote: »

Did you get a copy of the letter? How do you know a solicitor wrote it?

What you described happening with the co-worker out back is straight up assault.
It might be worth seeking legal advice for yourself or talking with citizen
information.

1) my boss said his solicitor 'prhased' the letter
2) Yes it is assault. But without witness and without good CCTV records.
3) legal advice is maybe too late (in this case) but because he still keep messing with me I think I may do it and reopen the case.

Maybe I even have to becuase my collegue did a complain (not formal yet) about me saying 'I recorded this'. when he was arguing. And I'm not sure if he will complain formal way too. If yes I will go to citizen information or a solicitor myself.

crusoe

I have a copy somewhere, I cant find it but my boss will give me a new copy if I ask. Maybe I left it at workplace in my locker I look tomorrow.

Squatman

I wouldnt say its illegal that you signed a disclaimer to say you wont go to the gardai. however, i would say it has no legal standing. I would think that its similar to employment contracts, when the company says you cant work in a similar industry within 6 months of terminating contract, however, this is not legally enforcable if im not mistaking.
Essentially, the contract you signed is waiving you basic human rights, which, I think is just your managers way in trying to keep a lid on it, without doing any work.
If i was you i would speak to the manager today, and say it has been x amount of time since i was assaulted in an unsurveillanced area - no action was taken due to lack of CCTV. When will you place CCTV in this area, as I am worried this person will attack other members of staff. Lack of CCTV leaves me feeling very isolated and in danger.

Teyla Emmagan

crusoe wrote:

They also added to it that "I am not going to report this at Garda". I signed this so I can't go to Garda. (I guess).

No solicitor would put this in a letter for an employee to sign. They would lose their licence! This is not binding. Of course you are entitled to go to the Guards. You are ALWAYS entitled to go to the Guards. Those are not rights you can sign away.

Your boss however is negligent in his duty of care to you. That entire situation you describe is ridiculous, and really dangerous! Your co worker should be suspended immediately. I don't know who the employee rights body are but ring citizen information as soon as you can.

crusoe

Squatman wrote: »

I wouldnt say its illegal that you signed a disclaimer to say you wont go to the gardai. however, i would say it has no legal standing. I would think that its similar to employment contracts, when the company says you cant work in a similar industry within 6 months of terminating contract, however, this is not legally enforcable if im not mistaking.
Essentially, the contract you signed is waiving you basic human rights, which, I think is just your managers way in trying to keep a lid on it, without doing any work.

If i was you i would speak to the manager today, and say it has been x amount of time since i was assaulted in an unsurveillanced area - no action was taken due to lack of CCTV. When will you place CCTV in this area, as I am worried this person will attack other members of staff. Lack of CCTV leaves me feeling very isolated and in danger.

I'm not sure about that it is illegal to ask em to sign something like that. My mom says (she was 'boss' in my country, also EU but not ireland): the he whole point of a disciplinary procedure is to 'keep it inside the company'.
The reason he made me sign that, because it is his _obligation_ to go to Garda if an assault happens, he can get in trouble if he don't report this to the Garda, so he needed it written that it was my decision not to go to Garda.

What you say 'no action was taken'. That is not true. He did take some action. It just didnt solve everything. Did changes in the roster. Reducing the time I have to spend with him 'alone'. My boss doesn't leave the shop for break anymore (he also is stressed). So there is always 3 person present.

He also did a 'mediation' (officially) he talked to us once. "You are here to work, dont want you to be friends, but blabla have to work together".. (I heard this speech so many times during the last few years I actually get pissed when I hear again. Boss does this after each conflict, like it was the official way to talk from a manager-book).

But these 'taken actions' won't stop him from verbal bullying, like the comments I mentioned, or talking on bad language - Telling me 'f*** f*** customer was ready, waiting for serving, why don't u serve'
(he said the first part in not-english language, but I asked someone translated to me.. plus every1 knows what 'kurwa' means)

Asking him CCTV is good idea. I did already but I didn't take my request seriously enough, can't remember what he answered.. maybe that he can't do that..for whatever reason I will ask again, if he tries avoid my request me I may ask it in written.

ibarelycare

How long have you been working there OP?

I would be very surprised if that "waiver" you signed would ever hold up. Your boss is absolutely spoofing you. You are clearly being bullied and intimidated in the workplace and nothing is being done about it. I feel very sorry for you and I wonder is your boss just hoping because you're not a native English speaker that you won't take things further. Don't let this go, write every incident down. I would imagine you would have a very good case for constructive dismissal here.

pilly

How long have you been working their crusoe?

Anongeneric

As someone else has already stated,
take detailed notes of every incident, times, dates, location within the store, if the 'boss' wasn't at the same location where was he,
every detail you can.
Start by writing as detailed a record of everything that has happened up to this point.
Include how it has made you feel, angry, intimidated, bullied, like your boss was patronizing you etc.

What suggestions you made to your boss, like increased cctv etc, and what reason was given for not installing it etc.

Then speak to citizens advice and or if there is a regulatory body for your industry talk to them.
The most important thing here is that you have detailed notes. They, your company and the person bullying you will almost certainly have nothing.

Email this to your boss, and state in the email that you feel as though it is not a safe place to work, as you have already been assaulted and ask your boss what action he is going to take.

crusoe

pilly wrote: »

How long have you been working their crusoe?

About 6 years I am here.

Wanderer2010

crusoe wrote: »

About 6 years I am here.

No more analysis on it, go straight to the Guards and tell them you are being intimidated and harassed by this individual, listing every single incident you have done here. That waiver is a heap of crap, your boss sounds an absolute spineless wimp who is too scared to take on the bully. Walk straight into the Guards then tell your boss what you did and that you aren't going to put up with intimidation anymore.

crusoe

Wanderer2010 wrote: »

No more analysis on it, go straight to the Guards and tell them you are being intimidated and harassed by this individual, listing every single incident you have done here. That waiver is a heap of crap, your boss sounds an absolute spineless wimp who is too scared to take on the bully. Walk straight into the Guards then tell your boss what you did and that you aren't going to put up with intimidation anymore.

We are all here for 6 years. Me my boss and the colleague. And unfortunately some other colleagues who (I think fear to confront that guy too so) they almost never stand up on my side... Actually more likely they go on his side... Or saying "Thats him.. Or just joking.
Or it wasnt serious. Or Youn overreacting it"

pilly

crusoe wrote:

About 6 years I am here.

Okay well you're on very solid ground so.

I agree with others, go to the Gardai because otherwise nothing will be done.

Dravokivich

crusoe wrote: »

My boss said and his solicitor wrote that letter that I had to sign. It has to be a legal thing. I just guess a lawyer wont do something illegal.

A solicitors letter is just an endorsed record. Legal direction can only come from the courts.

To be honest, if you were put in that position where you feel you are unable to report to the gardaí, that in itself is intimidation. You feel under threat with the potential to lose your job.

AlanG

Contact FLAC and get advice. Your boss getting you to sign that letter is grounds enough for a claim. You are being harassed by both your colleague and boss. Your boss presenting that letter is proof that they believe something happened but they will not do anything about it. You really should sue your employer for failing to provide a safe work environment. The letter asking you not to go to the police is all the proof you need.

AlanG

regarding the camera - personal body cameras are used by guardai all the time and hidden cameras provided all the evidence in the cases against a number of creches that were recently sued so I think you would be safe enough to use one to gather evidence so long as you are wearing it as the other person has no expectation of privacy when they are with you or in public. It is a different story if you hide a camera off your person and use it to record a person who is in a private area - in that case the person can have an expectation of privacy and could sue you.

pilly

AlanG wrote: »

regarding the camera - personal body cameras are used by guardai all the time and hidden cameras provided all the evidence in the cases against a number of creches that were recently sued so I think you would be safe enough to use one to gather evidence so long as you are wearing it as the other person has no expectation of privacy when they are with you or in public. It is a different story if you hide a camera off your person and use it to record a person who is in a private area - in that case the person can have an expectation of privacy and could sue you.

I don't think OP was thinking of a camera, more a voice recording device I think although I could be wrong.

cml387

The problem is I suspect the boss wouldn't act even if he had video/audio evidence I'm afraid because the workplace seems so toxic.

I'm afraid a complaint of assault to the Gardai seems to be your only way out of this if, as you say, moving jobs is not an option (though why I don't know).

H3llR4iser

Besides all of the very good advice you've already been given OP, how hard is it to find job in your field of employment?

This is a mentality problem - to put it in layman's terms, you work with sh1theads and your boss is a moron; The "letter" they got you to sign is a huge testament to it (it also suggests they underestimate your intelligence).
The issue won't go away, even if you go to the Garda; The only way to get out of it is to change jobs.

seamus

Dravokivich wrote: »

A solicitors letter is just an endorsed record. Legal direction can only come from the courts.

To be honest, if you were put in that position where you feel you are unable to report to the gardaí, that in itself is intimidation. You feel under threat with the potential to lose your job.

Correct.

In fact, that letter could be used as evidence since clearly the company believes the incident was serious enough to consider reporting it to the Gardai. If they didn't think it was a serious matter, why would they even mention the Gardai?

Anyway, you cannot sign anything that stops you from reporting a crime. The employer could be charged with obstruction of justice for asking you to sign it.

pilly

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Besides all of the very good advice you've already been given OP, how hard is it to find job in your field of employment?

This is a mentality problem - to put it in layman's terms, you work with sh1theads and your boss is a moron; The "letter" they got you to sign is a huge testament to it (it also suggests they underestimate your intelligence).
The issue won't go away, even if you go to the Garda; The only way to get out of it is to change jobs.

So after 6 years working somewhere OP should leave because some arsehole thinks it's okay to shove him around and the manager is too weak to deal with it?

That would be called constructive dismissal.

crusoe

AlanG wrote: »

regarding the camera - personal body cameras are used by guardai all the time and hidden cameras provided all the evidence in the cases against a number of creches that were recently sued so I think you would be safe enough to use one to gather evidence so long as you are wearing it as the other person has no expectation of privacy when they are with you or in public. It is a different story if you hide a camera off your person and use it to record a person who is in a private area - in that case the person can have an expectation of privacy and could sue you.

I just have a audio recorder which look like a USB card, I have it in my pocket (earlier I just left it on the top of my phone. Like my collegues leave different iteams everywhere, keyrings, phones, vallets.
My collegue find out what is it..he even took photo of it. Then my boss aid I got to put it away, then I said my collegues do photos, and can also record with phone.

Then he ban all phone and all electric device from the shop, he told me I can have my USB in my pocket (at this point he still show me symphaty and ensured that he belives me and he even said he'd be happy to have a proof to fire the other guy).

Then he become more forgiving and he let every1 again charge their phone in the back (but still cannot have it on you) when i told him they can still record from their, he said he tried and "it didnt work for him, and he couldn't record any conversation from the front of the shop" I told him what about the conversations in the back, he said they doesn't matter, we NOT be there and talking, and I stay all the time in the front.

So from now on I may be stop talking in the back? If they ask me something I will not answer!?

Also, the letter he gave me and I signed that say "I have not reported this to garda ... and I do not intend to" (I didn't even know this word "intend" before I had to use google translate before I signed).

This letter made so it looks simplier (not formatted too well) like it was just typed in quickly and printed out from a notepad pretending it was made by not official person... no logo, no "Dear XY" on top, it looks very simple. What Im trying to point at is they made the letter look like it was word by me.

On the other hand it has some phrases like "If im not comfortable i will not sign this below" that I would never write that... and even if i did i would phrase it completely differently.

But again I can't prove directly that he gave this letter to me to sign.

crusoe

cml387 wrote: »

The problem is I suspect the boss wouldn't act even if he had video/audio evidence I'm afraid because the workplace seems so toxic.

I'm afraid a complaint of assault to the Gardai seems to be your only way out of this if, as you say, moving jobs is not an option (though why I don't know).

It's an option to move job, but It's very hard to find one in this area, and im very bad in finding job, and interviews. A bit scared of that too. Also I find no time. I finish late every day, i sleep bad too since these things happened. (and this was not the only case I was involved in, there was other case when they complained against me /I note I believe unfairly/. Ok I know it sounds like excuses, and maybe a little bit it is... I liked this job, I liked the people (even my boss! I still like him, I still think he is a victim too in this case.. bullied by the other collegue... he was once down the floor looked like heart attack when the other collegue annoyed him so much... yet he did nothing.. (he said his hand is tied he cant do nothing) but I start believe I'm wrong and I should follow all the advices from here...

crusoe

I don't see other option but find some advice.

ibarelycare

Crusoe you have a very strong case here. Definitely do not let this go. Have you found your copy of that letter you signed? If not ask your boss for another copy of it ASAP. If he asks why, just tell him you lost yours.

feargale

crusoe wrote: »

My quesiton is still same if anyone can answer? Can I get in trouble if I record my collegue using obscenity, calling me names, or threatening me things like that? Also what If i record it 'secretly' does it make a difference ?

You cannot get into trouble for recording him. Whether the recording would be admissable in evidence is another question. No need to worry about it until it arises.

Nobody in any circumstances can stop you from going to the Garda Siochana. If your boss has tried to tie you to that he is an utter prik. Go to the guards. If your boss continues to act the ass soul you may also need to talk to a solicitor,

H3llR4iser

pilly wrote: »

So after 6 years working somewhere OP should leave because some arsehole thinks it's okay to shove him around and the manager is too weak to deal with it?

That would be called constructive dismissal.

Yes, there is a time when the only option is to pack your bags - especially when your health, well being and all-round enjoyment of life is suffering greatly from the situation. No laws, regulations or statutes in the world will make up for the misery of working with toxic people; In a small working environment, unfortunately, the "health" of the workplace lies on the ability from the manager(s) to be fair and assertive.

It seems clear from the OP's explanation that his "boss" (it isn't clear, but I think he might be the owner of the business) and his colleagues more or less side with "I'll smash your face!" guy, be it for personal reasons or because they might be afraid of him themselves. I can't really see any possible escape route from that, other than moving to a new opportunity.

Wanderer2010

crusoe wrote: »

We are all here for 6 years. Me my boss and the colleague. And unfortunately some other colleagues who (I think fear to confront that guy too so) they almost never stand up on my side... Actually more likely they go on his side... Or saying "Thats him.. Or just joking.
Or it wasnt serious. Or Youn overreacting it"

Then why wont you go to the Guards about it? You have hit a dead end at work, take it to the authorities. It sounds like you are just making excuses not to by now.

feargale

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Yes, there is a time when the only option is to pack your bags - especially when your health, well being and all-round enjoyment of life is suffering greatly from the situation. No laws, regulations or statutes in the world will make up for the misery of working with toxic people; In a small working environment, unfortunately, the "health" of the workplace lies on the ability from the manager(s) to be fair and assertive.

It seems clear from the OP's explanation that his "boss" (it isn't clear, but I think he might be the owner of the business) and his colleagues more or less side with "I'll smash your face!" guy, be it for personal reasons or because they might be afraid of him themselves. I can't really see any possible escape route from that, other than moving to a new opportunity.

Wrong. Firstly you don't know how easy or difficult it will be for OP to secure alternative employment. If right is done here the ultimate solution is dismissal of Mr. "smash your face."

mistersifter

As advised, write down detailed notes about every single detail of each incident that has occurred until now and keep doing this for any future incidents. Report all of it to the Gardai. It seems the letter they made you sign is rubbish. If everything you say is true, you'll be in the stronger position even if you are (which you're probably not) breaching some rule about not recording or reporting. Not sure what the exact nature of your business is but if your boss has a boss, go to them. Is there a head office or anything? Your boss sounds like a gormless little sh*t and should have to face up to the consequences for helping someone to bully you. Do not leave your job because of these people.

crusoe

ibarelycare wrote: »

Crusoe you have a very strong case here. Definitely do not let this go. Have you found your copy of that letter you signed? If not ask your boss for another copy of it ASAP. If he asks why, just tell him you lost yours.

I asked a copy of it, and I just realized other papers r missing too, the "hand written" notes from the meating that I rememwr I signed. And also the typed version of that I dont remember signing it he gave me a copy of the unsigned version of it saying he cant find the signed one but he look next week...I also asked a copy from the "minutes" of meeting of the other guy (the guy i complained about) boss said he not sure if he can give to me so waiting for the answer from his solicitor. Basicly I asked it ca i realized that i didnt get answer of some my questions for example that the guy said he "recorded me so dont lie" and i asked my coss where is this record he said "i didn't receive any record from him".. So i dontknow how he investigated this, did he even ask him about the record... Sorry for the bad typing i use my phone...

So answer your question i got a copy of it (when i sign not to go to garda) but now im missig the hand written + printed versions of the investigation meeting. "luckily" was only 2 meeting. One with me +boss+ a colleague as my company. And one the other party.The case ia closed weeks ago. I do not hace copies of the meetings, im not sure if i signed the printed "notes". Im waiting now for a copy of that.And I definitely didn't get a copy from the other meeting as i mentioned. Sorry for repeating myself its hard to edit this on phone...

Bandito909

Anything concrete on the recording issue? Can you record someone you know is going to abuse you ?

Minera

Cut out the nonsense and find yourself a solicitor they will advise you and your employer. Do not inform your employer or any other work colleagues until you have legal advice.
You as an employee have rights to a safe work environment and your employer is ignoring his duty of care towards this right.

Bandito909

Minera wrote: »

Cut out the nonsense and find yourself a solicitor they will advise you and your employer. Do not inform your employer or any other work colleagues until you have legal advice.
You as an employee have rights to a safe work environment and your employer is ignoring his duty of care towards this right.

What do you mean by cut out the nonsense exactly?

Atlantic Dawn

There's so many ways to do it offically and covert that the company should support and seek both. At the end of the day I'd just move on if my concrete evidence was not accepted.

Bandito909

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

There's so many ways to do it offically and covert that the company should support and seek both. At the end of the day I'd just move on if my concrete evidence was not accepted.

It's just frustrating if you know someone is being badly bullied and the bully is getting away with it .