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pre construction survey

  • 09-06-2017 9:49am
    #1
    boardie100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭


    Hi,

    Friend of has just started construction of an house extension, part of which now it seems is going over an existing water mains...
    Now im off the opinion this should have been caught by the architect during initial design/survey...
    Can anyone correct me if im wrong but is this part of the architects remit to check on these things?.


Comments

  • #2
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,171 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    boardie100 wrote: »
    Hi,

    Friend of has just started construction of an house extension, part of which now it seems is going over an existing water mains...
    Now im off the opinion this should have been caught by the architect during initial design/survey...
    Can anyone correct me if im wrong but is this part of the architects remit to check on these things?.

    Water mains?? as in drinking water......
    or sewer??


  • #3
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,339 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    boardie100 wrote: »
    Hi,

    Friend of has just started construction of an house extension, part of which now it seems is going over an existing water mains...
    Now im off the opinion this should have been caught by the architect during initial design/survey...
    Can anyone correct me if im wrong but is this part of the architects remit to check on these things?.

    Was it visible at the time of Survey?
    Decking, paving slabs etc can cover the man holes.

    Was there any man holes available for inspection?


  • #4
    boardie100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭boardie100


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Water mains?? as in drinking water......
    or sewer??

    yeah drinking water


  • #5
    boardie100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭boardie100


    kceire wrote: »
    Was it visible at the time of Survey?
    Decking, paving slabs etc can cover the man holes.

    Was there any man holes available for inspection?

    no it wasnt visible... no man holes visible either... he wasnt aware of it either to be honest but i would have thought these things would need to be checked out via a site inspection/maps beforehand?..


  • #6
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 42,171 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    boardie100 wrote: »
    yeah drinking water

    well then

    no, there would be no visible indicators externally where the mains would be. it may be something that would crop up during a planning application, but ill assume there was no application in this case? I wouldnt find the architect at fault for not knowing what was under ground, if the client didnt know themselves in the first instance.


    is it a large diameter public mains... or a smaller single dwelling connection?


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  • #7
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,339 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    boardie100 wrote: »
    yeah drinking water

    Small black water mains pipe?
    There would be no signs of this above ground. Nobody would have known it was there until construction excavation.


  • #8
    boardie100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭boardie100


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    well then

    no, there would be no visible indicators externally where the mains would be. it may be something that would crop up during a planning application, but ill assume there was no application in this case? I wouldnt find the architect at fault for not knowing what was under ground, if the client didnt know themselves in the first instance.


    is it a large diameter public mains... or a smaller single dwelling connection?

    There was a planning application and the mains is actually marked on a map he got from council after build started, which is a bit of a joke because it's something they should have flagged on application... I still think this is something the architect should have saught first since he's the professional here


  • #9
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,339 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    You'll have to clear something up OP.
    Is this the mains water supply (that you drink)?
    Or mains waste water / surface water disposal?


  • #10
    Calahonda52
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,878 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    The OP's focus seems to be on doing a TCSM on the architect, seems to have some axe to grind here.
    1. Can anyone correct me if im wrong but is this part of the architects remit to check on these things?.
    2. i would have thought these things would need to be checked out via a site inspection/maps beforehand?..
    3. I still think this is something the architect should have saught first since he's the professional here.
    .
    .
    TCSM is Texas CSM

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • #11
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,576 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    What issues is this posing?
    boardie100 wrote: »
    part of which now it seems is going over an existing water mains...
    What diameter pipe? If it's under 25mm, it's not really a problem. If it is substantially larger pipe / shared with other properties, then it can just be diverted. Council / Irish Water probably won't want it built over.
    boardie100 wrote: »
    Can anyone correct me if im wrong but is this part of the architects remit to check on these things?.
    Someone on the design team should check for it, yes. However, until you start digging, you don't necessarily know what is under the ground. On larger projects, trial holes or trenches can be dug and certain services can be tested for, but that is potentially a huge cost for a domestic extension.
    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    The OP's focus seems to be on doing a TCSM on the architect, seems to have some axe to grind here.
    Huh? http://csm.ices.utexas.edu/

    Many designers, especially architects are overly concerned with the final product, without concern as to how to get there. I've had whole buildings exist on site that weren't on architectural plans.
    kceire wrote: »
    You'll have to clear something up OP.
    Is this the mains water supply (that you drink)?
    Or mains waste water / surface water disposal?
    As said:
    boardie100 wrote: »
    yeah drinking water
    boardie100 wrote: »
    There was a planning application and the mains is actually marked on a map he got from council after build started
    What quality is the 'map'. Maps (as opposed to detailed drawings) aren't very good at finding individual pipes.


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  • #12
    DvB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,828 ✭✭✭✭DvB


    Experience has taught me that the drawings provided by any local authority with respect to water services are IMO indicative at best & cannot be relied upon in terms of accuracy.

    However, if during the course of a design process (i.e. before ground was broken) something came up to suggest a water main (not a feeder pipe of 25mm or suchlike) or main drain was potentially located under the footprint of any new works it should be at least flagged by the architect as potentially having a cost implication, in terms of identifying its location to rule out the clash, &/orthe potential financial costs asspciated with redirecting or any other compensating measures required by the LA etc. to allow it retain its course.

    I agree its practically impossible without any identifying features on the ground to know if theres any underground services impacted in some cases & most of our scope of works and/or pricing documents would include a line item to pick these up if discovered during the opening up works but if a map was provided its a bit of a risk to ignore it & hope its not a problem later IMO.
    "I will honour Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year" - Charles Dickens




  • #13
    boardie100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭boardie100


    Calahonda52 wrote: »
    The OP's focus seems to be on doing a TCSM on the architect, seems to have some axe to grind here.
    1. Can anyone correct me if im wrong but is this part of the architects remit to check on these things?.
    2. i would have thought these things would need to be checked out via a site inspection/maps beforehand?..
    3. I still think this is something the architect should have saught first since he's the professional here.
    .
    .
    TCSM is Texas CSM

    not trying to do a hatchet job by any means but its an additional cost to move pipes and not cheap from what i heard... i would have thought some due diligence would have needed to be done... but i dont know the industry so thats why i ask..... surely any construction needs to check these things out before digging into the ground....


  • #14
    boardie100
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 387 ✭✭boardie100


    Victor wrote: »
    What issues is this posing?What diameter pipe? If it's under 25mm, it's not really a problem. If it is substantially larger pipe / shared with other properties, then it can just be diverted. Council / Irish Water probably won't want it built over.

    well the issue is the substantial additional cost to redivert the pipe which imo should have been flagged before building
    Victor wrote: »

    Someone on the design team should check for it, yes. However, until you start digging, you don't necessarily know what is under the ground. On larger projects, trial holes or trenches can be dug and certain services can be tested for, but that is potentially a huge cost for a domestic extension.

    Huh? http://csm.ices.utexas.edu/

    Many designers, especially architects are overly concerned with the final product, without concern as to how to get there. I've had whole buildings exist on site that weren't on architectural plans.

    As said:

    What quality is the 'map'. Maps (as opposed to detailed drawings) aren't very good at finding individual pipes.

    map is an official council one... which if looked at before would have shown the construction would be built over it...


  • #15
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,339 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    boardie100 wrote: »
    not trying to do a hatchet job by any means but its an additional cost to move pipes and not cheap from what i heard... i would have thought some due diligence would have needed to be done... but i dont know the industry so thats why i ask..... surely any construction needs to check these things out before digging into the ground....

    But you cannot see these pipes until excavation.
    boardie100 wrote: »
    well the issue is the substantial additional cost to redivert the pipe which imo should have been flagged before building.
    map is an official council one... which if looked at before would have shown the construction would be built over it...

    The official maps are hit and miss.
    Plus, if its on the official map then its a public system and requires a 3m way leave both sides of the pipe so the extension cannot be built.


  • #16
    DvB
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,828 ✭✭✭✭DvB


    kceire wrote: »
    The official maps are hit and miss.

    when these maps are issued its usually with the disclaimer that these are indicative only anyway are they not?

    I know I've gotten such a message on many an occasion from LA engineers issuing such maps, hence if any doubt site investigations are carried out at the clients expense.
    "I will honour Christmas in my heart, and try to keep it all the year" - Charles Dickens




  • #17
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 40,339 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    DvB wrote: »
    when these maps are issued its usually with the disclaimer that these are indicative only anyway are they not?

    I know I've gotten such a message on many an occasion from LA engineers issuing such maps, hence if any doubt site investigations are carried out at the clients expense.

    100% correct.
    And any discrepancies to be reported to the LA immediately. I use the maps everyday, both public and private sides of the counter.


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