buying a pedigree dog?

ligertigon

First post here.
At 45 years old, I have had a few dogs so far and all mongerals, and all have been great. possibly by chance.
However, I am now thinking of replacing my recently deceased 16 year old mongeral with a pedigree.
I was thinking of a Vizsla or weimaraner, as firstly a family pet and also a gun dog.

My question is, should I go pay €500+ for a pedigree that may or may not work out better than something from a rescue centre, if I never plan to breed them.

Would a pedigree be wasted on me? Am I in for bigger vet bills? Personal preference aside, any logical reason to go pedigree?

Also, do people haggle on these prices or are they robust?

Cherry Blossom

The breeds you are looking at are not too common and to the best of my knowledge carry a high price tag. When you go to a reputable breeder you are paying for the costs they incur for health testing of their breeding stock and hopefully sound temperament. I'm not sure what the breeds you mentioned actually do in the field but if you went for one of the more common breeds eg. Springer's or setters there is a difference between show lines and working lines with the show lines being more expensive. If I were looking for a gun dog I would look to find a breeder that actually works their dogs. Some show people field trial their dogs and that's what I'd want to see in a show line if that's the route you want to go. Working dogs are harder to sort the wheat from the chaff as working dog breeders often use the parents working ability and soundness for work as evidence of health and forego testing. As far as I know there are quite a few Weimaraners around with questionable temperament so I'd be cautious in that regard.

Some years ago a vizsla won crufts and that dog was seriously overbred so go through any pedigrees with a fine tooth comb for evidence of inbreeding if you decide to go for a vizsla.

VonVix

I think a lot of it is down to what you're looking for.
Are you looking to work your dog or predominantly have him/her as a pet? Adult? Puppy?
I personally prefer seeking a puppy from a very good, very enthusiastic breeder. And that's more than someone just having "nice" dogs. But I'm very much into obedience and trick training, I like having dogs that want to do things with me, so thoroughly knowing about the breed(s) I'm interested in is important.
It would not work if I wanted a Shiba Inu to do serious search and rescue work with, for example.

I firmly believe it's a myth that pedigree dogs are more likely to have more health issues than crossbreeds, if anything you are more likely to have a guideline as to what may be an issue with your breed. Also it depends on the breed you're interested in. Some of them have been overbred to the point you're guaranteed an issue, while some others have been kept true to what they were bred for, and typically have fewer issues.
Regardless, it can be a flip of a coin whether the dog you have will have many or few health issues.

The great thing about rescuing is you have an abundance of choice, the opportunity to foster (see if a dog works with your family dynamic) before making a lifelong commitment.

It's really a huge topic, with so many difference angles, pro's and con's on both sides of it.

Cherry Blossom

Sorry just realised I didn't answer your questions!

I personally prefer pedigrees dogs as it's much easier to anticipate their traits. I have no intention of ever breeding either. I like to read breed books and can see what they are talking about in my own dogs. I don't feel pedigree dogs are wasted on me.

For show lines, the price is the price there is not usually any movement. I have no experience of working line gun dogs so can't say on that front if haggling on price is acceptable or not.

If you really prefer mongrels you could post on the hunting forum to see if anyone has droppers for sale.

muddypaws

There is a fabulous Weimaraner cross in foster in Wicklow, he looks a bit like a vizla, so the best of both worlds Let me know if you'd like more details and I'll pm them to you.

There is nothing wrong with wanting a pedigree dog, just make sure you buy from a reputable breeder, who does the relevant genetic health testing for the breed. Contact the breed club through the IKC, although bear in mind that the two breeds you mention may have a split between working and showing lines, so you would need to see which you prefer, and what you would like to do with the dog. A friend has a lovely vizla who he bikejores with, and he's fab at it, but I don't know how he would fare in the show ring.

ligertigon

thanks all. forgot about the line between "show" and "working" and I suppose predictable traits might come into it.

Springwell

Weims are basically show dogs, there's few to none with instinct and temperament to work left so I would rule those out.

What sort of gundog work do you want a dog for? Pointers and HPR breeds are wonderful if you have lots of ground to work and sparse game. There's more German pointers and Setters from working lines in Ireland than good Vizlas but there are some out there. You'll find no one health tests working HPRs. Retriever people do, I'm slowly convincing the spaniel people we need to as well (I own the only fully health tested and working titled ESS in the country currently) but HPR people are very resistant to the idea.

celica00

Resuce dogs all the way.
If you keep an eye on rescue pages etc. you will see how many pure breed dogs end up there. Weinmaraner included.
Definitely keep an eye on rescue centers, there is absolutely no justification to support more dog breeding considering still thousands of them are being destroyed each year in Ireland

muddypaws

celica00 wrote: »

Resuce dogs all the way.
If you keep an eye on rescue pages etc. you will see how many pure breed dogs end up there. Weinmaraner included.
Definitely keep an eye on rescue centers, there is absolutely no justification to support more dog breeding considering still thousands of them are being destroyed each year in Ireland

But imagine if people only ever bought from reputable, responsible breeders, who took back the dogs if circumstances ever changed, gave support to owners etc etc. Nothing wrong at all with buying from people like that, as their dogs never end up in rescue centres. Education is the key.

celica00

I agree with that!
The issue is the BUYER and the people that decide to buy/get/keep a dog. Especially the ones who get rid of the dogs after a few months, or when the baby arrives, or house moves blablabla
Because there is already such a bad situation here (and its an island after all), i would personally say that even if there is responsible breeders: but what about all the unwanted dogs!!!??? the ones stuck in the rescues or being destroyed behind closed doors.
If i would be a breeder i could not live with that thought.
I did a lot of volunteering in rescues and was amazed to see so many pure breed dogs in there, often they had no issues at all. I would recommend to everybody who is looking for a dog to consider them first many rescues also offer some trial-weeks so you can see if the dogs fits your lifestyle (or the other way around) haah

123shooter

muddypaws wrote: »

But imagine if people only ever bought from reputable, responsible breeders, who took back the dogs if circumstances ever changed, gave support to owners etc etc. Nothing wrong at all with buying from people like that, as their dogs never end up in rescue centres. Education is the key.

Realistically how many breeders do this? After all a breeder is in it for the money not public service/charity.

tk123

Springwell wrote: »

Weims are basically show dogs, there's few to none with instinct and temperament to work left so I would rule those out.

Is that just here or in general? There's a fair few weim owners on a FB group I'm on and they're nothing like the few weims I've seen here both in looks and temperament (from videos of them etc). One of them does everything - SAR, retrieving etc and others work them too.

celica00 wrote: »

Resuce dogs all the way.
If you keep an eye on rescue pages etc. you will see how many pure breed dogs end up there. Weinmaraner included.
Definitely keep an eye on rescue centers, there is absolutely no justification to support more dog breeding considering still thousands of them are being destroyed each year in Ireland

Reputable breeders will take a dog back - they're not filling pounds and rescues. IMO they interview prospective owners better than some of the rescues(!) and pounds because they have a waiting list for their puppies and can afford to be choosey.

OP some people who show also work the dogs or would have contacts so even contact the breed club and see what advice they can give?

I went to the breed club when I was buying my retriever girl - my boy has lots of issues so temperament and health were really really important to me. I quizzed the breeder and she quizzed me (she rejected 3 prospective owners). We struck gold with her so I'll be going back to those lines when its time to get another pup.

celica00

Its great to hear that there is good experiences with responsible breeders and ye obviously keep the dog for its life time and dont drop them when its inconvenient!
I just hope that maybe someone considers a rescue first and might helps a poor soul out that way. Nothing wrong with checking a rescue and if it still didnt work out...at least you tried first!

Springwell

tk123 wrote: »

Is that just here or in general? There's a fair few weim owners on a FB group I'm on and they're nothing like the few weims I've seen here both in looks and temperament (from videos of them etc). One of them does everything - SAR, retrieving etc and others work them too.

In general, I don't know of any Weims with working titles in Europe at all. They not drivey enough and too neurotic

DBB

I'd echo what Springwell says... Weimaraners are not used much in the field here, I think many shooting folk feel they've gone too far down the "jack of all trades" route, which means they're actually not that much good at any element of the HPR!
I've also met quite a few with very dodgy temperaments. They tend to be very strong characters, and are very physical sort of dogs, not knowing their own strength.
Vizlas seem to be gaining in popularity both as pets and gundogs, both roles in which they seem to do well! Very nice dogs, gentle, nice temperament.
If you're looking for a good working gundog, going the traditional rescue route is less likely to work out for you. As a general rule, in my experience at least, dogs from working lines that end up in rescue are generally in that situation because (a) they didn't work out as gundogs, or (b) their owners made a pig's knickers of their training, and the dog is ruined as a gundog (the prime problems include gunshy dogs, and dogs having been roughly handled... There are lads out there who are brilliant trainers, but there are lots who are not, and who resort to frustrated punishment when their dog doesn't understand what the owner is looking for. You'd wince at some of the stuff I've seen and heard
You might of course get lucky, but Vizlas are rare indeed in rescue, and Weims.. Well... They're more common but for reasons already stated, are probably not going to be prime candidates as a gundog.
To my mind, if you did want to go down the adoption route, you might be as well off looking for a dog whose owner has done everything right, the dog works well, but the owner can't keep the dog any more for whatever reason (preferably a reason not related to the dog itself)... This would mean making contacts in the shooting world amongst people who own your preferred breeds.
You'll always get the occasional story where an owner got lucky with finding a good rescue gundog via the pound or generic pet dog rescue, but these are rare. There's a reason the majority of shooting folk buy their dogs as pups or part-trained youngsters from proven trainers.

Springwell

I know we are not allowed mention specific rescues but if you put gundog and rescue into google I'm sure a nice reputable one I do home checks for would pop up, or PM me.

muddypaws

celica00 wrote: »

I agree with that!
The issue is the BUYER and the people that decide to buy/get/keep a dog. Especially the ones who get rid of the dogs after a few months, or when the baby arrives, or house moves blablabla
Because there is already such a bad situation here (and its an island after all), i would personally say that even if there is responsible breeders: but what about all the unwanted dogs!!!??? the ones stuck in the rescues or being destroyed behind closed doors.
If i would be a breeder i could not live with that thought.
I did a lot of volunteering in rescues and was amazed to see so many pure breed dogs in there, often they had no issues at all. I would recommend to everybody who is looking for a dog to consider them first many rescues also offer some trial-weeks so you can see if the dogs fits your lifestyle (or the other way around) haah

The point still stands, if people only buy from reputable breeders, they wouldn't be handing dogs into pounds. The breeder probably wouldn't sell them a dog in the first place, as they are as careful as some rescues (and yeah, I definitely do say some rescues, not all are created equal) when they move their pups on.

A reputable, responsible breeder is not responsible for puppy farmers and BYBs churning dogs out that end up in pounds and rescues, why should they feel guilty about ensuring there are healthy, well socialised, well bred dogs out there?
[QUOTE=123shooter;1
03742993]Realistically how many breeders do this? After all a breeder is in it for the money not public service/charity.[/QUOTE]

No they're not, they are in it because they love a particular breed, and want to carry on with a particular line, for showing or working and its very seldom that a bitch will only have one pup, so the rest of the litter gets sold. A friend of mine has recently had a litter, only 5 pups, she could have sold 4 times that many, her waiting list was so long. It is her first litter, and probably her last, but she wanted a pup from two particular dogs, so she bred them. She doesn't show, she works her dogs. I can guarantee that none of her dogs will ever end up needing rescue help. Even if something medically happened to her, the dogs would be taken care of.

It has been discussed in here many, many times, but breeding properly is not a money maker, the parents have to be health tested, there may be travelling to the correct sire, the vet care, excellent food etc during pregnancy, whelping and rearing the pups. The dogs need to be proven, in the ring or their working field, so factor in the cost of entering shows or events, travelling to them etc.

Of course back yard breeders and puppy farmers don't bother with any of that, so yes, they can make lots of money out of misery.

Again, education is the way to go, if people didn't insist on wanting a dog NOW, and were prepared to do their research and wait, we wouldn't be in the mess that we are.

123shooter

muddypaws wrote: »

No they're not, they are in it because they love a particular breed, and want to carry on with a particular line, for showing or working and its very seldom that a bitch will only have one pup,

I see. Well here's a suggestion of mine then and see what you think.

Ban pedigree breeds full stop..............Then anybody who wants a dog could get one from a dog rescue/pound........It would stop people dumping dogs so they can have that "extra special pedigree" to keep up with their mates or fashion trend.........It would stop breeders inbreeding deformities or medical problems associated with breeds.......etc etc etc.

Just a suggestion :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

muddypaws

123shooter wrote: »

I see. Well here's a suggestion of mine then and see what you think.

Ban pedigree breeds full stop..............Then anybody who wants a dog could get one from a dog rescue/pound........It would stop people dumping dogs so they can have that "extra special pedigree" to keep up with their mates or fashion trend.........It would stop breeders inbreeding deformities or medical problems associated with breeds.......etc etc etc.

Just a suggestion :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

So the only dogs that are going to be around, will be those from puppy farmers and back yard breeders, just money machines? What a great plan.

I guess you haven't spent any time in pounds or rescues lately, and seen all the cavachons, labradoodles, the designer crossbreeds? They are actually what people like you describe are buying.

123shooter

muddypaws wrote: »

So the only dogs that are going to be around, will be those from puppy farmers and back yard breeders, just money machines? What a great plan.

I guess you haven't spent any time in pounds or rescues lately, and seen all the cavachons, labradoodles, the designer crossbreeds? They are actually what people like you describe are buying.

Hey I never mentioned puppy farmers and backyard breeders but being as those people do it for the money then they probably won't bother for a mongrel.

As regards spending time in a rescue place. Well of my own I have been delighted to have shared my life with 7 throw away dogs. 4 of who have now departed. 3 of very old age and one tragically. The 3 left are 2 young collie types no good for sheep and one older lad who was one of the worst if not worst cases of cruelty in the area. They are all happy and healthy now and all were not pedigree so mongrels.

Does that qualify me for having a little experience of rescue dogs and entitle me to have a dislike for anybody who breeds dogs?

tk123

123shooter wrote: »

I see. Well here's a suggestion of mine then and see what you think.

Ban pedigree breeds full stop..............Then anybody who wants a dog could get one from a dog rescue/pound........It would stop people dumping dogs so they can have that "extra special pedigree" to keep up with their mates or fashion trend.........It would stop breeders inbreeding deformities or medical problems associated with breeds.......etc etc etc.

Just a suggestion :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Grand so - will you let the 70 kids on Irish Dogs for the Disabled's waiting list know they won't be getting a stability /assistance dog? Same for the people and kids on guide dog's list and all of the other charities who rely on proven breeding stock to ensure they have successful partnerships?

123shooter wrote: »

Does that qualify me for having a little experience of rescue dogs and entitle me to have a dislike for anybody who breeds dogs?

And no it doesn't - you've no experience of a reputable breeder?

muddypaws

123shooter wrote: »

Hey I never mentioned puppy farmers and backyard breeders but being as those people do it for the money then they probably won't bother for a mongrel.

As regards spending time in a rescue place. Well of my own I have been delighted to have shared my life with 7 throw away dogs. 4 of who have now departed. 3 of very old age and one tragically. The 3 left are 2 young collie types no good for sheep and one older lad who was one of the worst if not worst cases of cruelty in the area. They are all happy and healthy now and all were not pedigree so mongrels.

Does that qualify me for having a little experience of rescue dogs and entitle me to have a dislike for anybody who breeds dogs?

That is the point, the puppy farmers and byb are very much interested in mongrels, they are pumping out crossbreeds, putting a name on them, such as cavachon and making a fortune. There are far more of those dogs in rescues and pounds around the country than pedigree dogs at the moment. They are not reputable, responsible breeders.

I currently have 13 dogs in my home, all but one is a rescue, most of them are here from my days of running a rescue, and are the ones that never found homes, or couldn't be rehomed for one reason or another. Of the 13, 8 are pedigrees, some with papers, 5 are crossbreeds. I took one of the pedigrees to be shown in Crufts a few years ago, thanks to Ray D'Arcy, to help promote the fact that rescue dogs are as good as any other dog. Yet I don't dislike reputable, responsible breeders, as there is one breed in particular that I love, and I enjoy seeming them doing the work they were bred for, and would like to see that continue, with healthy, well socialised dogs. I do however dislike with a passion puppy farmers and bybs.

123shooter

tk123 wrote: »

And no it doesn't - you've no experience of a reputable breeder?

I see well I would never let someone who thinks I have to get to know a dog breeder before giving a home to a dog which needs one. When I did to the 7 dogs I did give a home to, I never asked them who their parents were or whether they were well educated.

You live and learn.

123shooter

muddypaws wrote: »

That is the point, the puppy farmers and byb are very much interested in mongrels, they are pumping out crossbreeds, putting a name on them, such as cavachon and making a fortune. There are far more of those dogs in rescues and pounds around the country than pedigree dogs at the moment. They are not reputable, responsible breeders.

I currently have 13 dogs in my home, all but one is a rescue, most of them are here from my days of running a rescue, and are the ones that never found homes, or couldn't be rehomed for one reason or another. Of the 13, 8 are pedigrees, some with papers, 5 are crossbreeds. I took one of the pedigrees to be shown in Crufts a few years ago, thanks to Ray D'Arcy, to help promote the fact that rescue dogs are as good as any other dog. Yet I don't dislike reputable, responsible breeders, as there is one breed in particular that I love, and I enjoy seeming them doing the work they were bred for, and would like to see that continue, with healthy, well socialised dogs. I do however dislike with a passion puppy farmers and bybs.

Well that's good to know, but on your point of puppy breeders and the like. They simply wouldnt do it if there wasn't money in it and I would have thought the money would be in pedigree or supposed to be pedigree dogs.

biko

Not all dogs suits as gun dogs. I am sure you have done a lot of research but maybe ask in Shooting forum if someone there has dogs they need to part with?

That way you get a robust dog and you know its history.

tk123

123shooter wrote: »

I see well I would never let someone who thinks I have to get to know a dog breeder before giving a home to a dog which needs one. When I did to the 7 dogs I did give a home to, I never asked them who their parents were or whether they were well educated.

You live and learn.

That's great for you. But reputable breeders didn't put your 7 dogs in the pound nor did they stop your 7 dogs from being re-homed.

muddypaws

123shooter wrote: »

Well that's good to know, but on your point of puppy breeders and the like. They simply wouldnt do it if there wasn't money in it and I would have thought the money would be in pedigree or supposed to be pedigree dogs.

Nothing that anyone says is obviously going to change your mind, but I do have friends who have bred and kept the whole litter for themselves, to add to their working teams, no money made obviously.

I used to think the same as you btw, until I got a pedigree dog, (to rescue her from a bad situation) then got to know people that had them and bred them. I'm not into showing at all, only entered Riley into a championship show to support a working judge, and then we qualified for Crufts, so went along for the laugh, and as I said, to promote rescue dogs. But I have met lots of reputable breeders, who just love a particular breed, their whole lives revolve around their dogs, as does mine, and they breed to improve the breed, and yes, because they do enjoy days out with their dogs at show rings, and/or out working them. So maybe go along and meet different people, you never know, you might also change your mind, and realise that not all breeders are money hungry scum bags (I have never bred a litter btw)

123shooter

tk123 wrote: »

That's great for you. But reputable breeders didn't put your 7 dogs in the pound nor did they stop your 7 dogs from being re-homed.

6 of them wouldn't have made the pound. The one which did was the rescue dog.

I can see no justification for breeding dogs in it's present form for the public. Maybe in special needs as you highlighted. But a farmers livestock are subject to far more restrictions and legalities than people breeding pets and that needs sorting fast.

ligertigon

Amazing how emotive we all get about canines..
And all you guys have more in common than differences.

DBB, you are correct, I am unlikely to find a rescue dog capable of work. But if there was a chance i'd take it, and if it didn't work out I'd still have a companion.

Regards dog breeding in Ireland, and I have no issues with it as long as it is enthusiast based and not a money machine.
The people going to control it in the future, will be the revenue.

I mean, if you look at all 2000 adverts on donedeal atm, there is a turnover of half a million!

muddypaws

ligertigon wrote: »

Amazing how emotive we all get about canines..
And all you guys have more in common than differences.

DBB, you are correct, I am unlikely to find a rescue dog capable of work. But if there was a chance i'd take it, and if it didn't work out I'd still have a companion.

Regards dog breeding in Ireland, and I have no issues with it as long as it is enthusiast based and not a money machine.
The people going to control it in the future, will be the revenue.

I mean, if you look at all 2000 adverts on donedeal atm, there is a turnover of half a million!

I know, thats how to close puppy farms down, follow the money, I can't believe the revenue haven't shown more of an interest in it.