Percentage EVs on the road

unkel

As a percentage of all cars on the road. The figures are for BEV and PHEV. I would have preferred stats for pure EV, maybe someone has them?

1. Norway - 29%
2. Netherlands - 6.4%
100(?). Ireland - 0.1%

I picked up the first two from an article I was reading this morning. The figure for Ireland I calculated as roughly 2.5k EVs on 2.5 million cars on the road today. I've no other figures, feel free to fill them in for a bit of fun

slicedpanman

nice idea...
As a follow on, what percentage do we need to get to to avoid the €600 million EU emissions fine that is looming? (assuming that we're unable to make CO2 cuts anywhere else and have to do it entirely in private transport) And from that can we determine how many car sales need to be converted from ICE to EV for the upcoming years to dodge the fine? And from those figures can we hazard a guess at what the govt can afford to "spend" on encouraging this change in car sales?

unkel

slicedpanman wrote: »

assuming that we're unable to make CO2 cuts anywhere else and have to do it entirely in private transport

I don't want to take my own thread off topic straight away

But I can see massive CO2 cuts from large solar farms and from promoting private solar micro generation (with a decent feed in tariff). Both won't cost the state much, will leave responsibility for investment and maintenance in the private sector and with home owners / landlords and will dramatically reduce CO2 (if at a certain scale). Easier to do than to get the percentage of EVs here to Norwegian levels in the next 5 years.

BoatMad

Easier to do than to get the percentage of EVs here to Norwegian levels in the next 5 years.

if we applied the same level of incentives as Norway did , wed get the same response . people arnt that different

unkel

Our incentives are far better than the Netherlands, yet from the sales it looks like it was the other way around

Also what is the incentive setup in Norway for say an Ioniq? Is it even as generous as it is here (€5k + €5k + €1k installer + free electricity + €120 tax)

n97 mini

Statoil (remember them?) is a Norwegian state owned company. 36% of exports from Norway in 2016 were oil products as Norway is an oil rich country. Can we stop comparing Ireland to Norway, which is highly dependent on fossil fuels, but chooses to export them.

oppenheimer1

unkel wrote: »

Our incentives are far better than the Netherlands, yet from the sales it looks like it was the other way around

Also what is the incentive setup in Norway for say an Ioniq? Is it even as generous as it is here (?5k + ?5k + ?1k installer + free electricity + ?120 tax)

The big incentive for EV uptake in Norway is that EVs can use tolled roads and tunnels for free. Tolls are extremely high so it's a huge perk.I think they can use bus lanes also, free parking in some municipalities and an exemption from 25%vat.

There is talk of some unwinding of the EV incentives in Norway as the incentives are starting to cause issues, namely loss of revenue and congestion. A phased introduction of vat has been proposed and an ending of free tolls.

KCross

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

The big incentive for EV uptake in Norway is that EVs can use tolled roads and tunnels for free. Tolls are extremely high so it's a huge perk.I think they can use bus lanes also, free parking in some municipalities and an exemption from 25%vat.

There is talk of some unwinding of the EV incentives in Norway as the incentives are starting to cause issues, namely loss of revenue and congestion. A phased introduction of vat has been proposed and an ending of free tolls.

Probably makes sense for them at this stage since they already have 1000s of them on the roads. I think they sold 50k of them last year and have 30+% BEV at this stage. The incentives have done their job.

The market should stand on its own feet now as BEV's clearly work in that country so as long as they remain affordable compared to their ICE counterparts they should survive without subsidies.

zilog_jones

unkel wrote: »

Our incentives are far better than the Netherlands, yet from the sales it looks like it was the other way around

Is it not the case that tax and or fuel costs are much higher for petrol/diesel cars in the Netherlands compared to here? I don't have exact figures. I believe LPG conversions were a lot more popular there for similar reasons, although IIRC that's not really encouraged any more.

And are there 2.5 million passenger cars on the road here, or is that all road vehicles? Seems like a lot considering the current population.

zilog_jones

Based on the 2016 Census:

• Total population: 4.7 million
• 3.1 million in car owning age (my assumption of 20-75, CSO graphs not very accurate so that might be a bit off)

2.5 million cars would mean over 75% people who are 20-75 have a car. I guess there are a lot of cars not owned by private individuals too (hire cars, used cars at dealers, etc.).

KCross

I believe we have 2.0m private vehicles. The other 0.5m is commercial, tractors, motorbikes.

zilog_jones

There are EV motorbikes too, don't know how many are available or owned here though. SIMI don't seem to care enough about them to have publicly available stats...

KCross

And we have about 2.8m license holders and add in those that don't have an Irish license but who still live/drive here and take off those that don't drive... you weren't too far off with your 3.1m figure

unkel

Does any other EU country have free unlimited public charging like Ireland though? And does any other EU country have such a cheap night rate for home charging (about 7c incl VAT)?

zilog_jones wrote: »

Is it not the case that tax and or fuel costs are much higher for petrol/diesel cars in the Netherlands compared to here? I don't have exact figures. I believe LPG conversions were a lot more popular there for similar reasons

Petrol a little bit more expensive, diesel a little bit cheaper and LPG a lot cheaper than here. The motor tax on diesel and LPG is about 3 times that on petrol though. That's why even for the people doing the biggest miles, LPG is working out cheaper than diesel. And of course much, much better for the environment.

I'm not quite sure about the incentives for EVs, it might be mainly to do with company cars as non EVs are subject to very high BIK in the Netherlands

bk

What you are missing is the stick. Generally petrol and diesel cars are much more expensive in Norway then here due to punishing tax.

Take Hyundai, an Ioniq EV costs €32k in Norway.

However an i40 Tourer (they don't seem to have the Saloon) costs €58,500 there! The same i40 tourer costs just €29,500 here! Almost double the price!

i20 1.0 litre there costs €30k, here the 1.4l i20 (we don't do a 1l) costs just €20k

Just from the differences in engine sizes they offer, you can easily see how punished they are in Norway and how attractive a nice EV would be by comparison.

It is also notable that on their site, the first car mentioned and heavily advertised is the Ioniq Ev.

ELM327

bk wrote: »

What you are missing is the stick. Generally petrol and diesel cars are much more expensive in Norway then here due to punishing tax.

Take Hyundai, an Ioniq EV costs €32k in Norway.

However an i40 Tourer (they don't seem to have the Saloon) costs €58,500 there! The same i40 tourer costs just €29,500 here! Almost double the price!

i20 1.0 litre there costs €30k, here the 1.4l i20 (we don't do a 1l) costs just €20k

Just from the differences in engine sizes they offer, you can easily see how punished they are in Norway and how attractive a nice EV would be by comparison.

It is also notable that on their site, the first car mentioned and heavily advertised is the Ioniq Ev.

That's a mix of stick, carrot, and better sales attitude.
In Ireland we have only the stick, and it's not a big enough stick.
Petrol/diesel here is still approx €5.50 per gallon so it's not expensive enough to make people change.

Since we have a looming eu fine(s), can we not instead look at ways of spending the mooted fine money in EV promotion?
Here's a great idea. Make the charging infrastructure better with 2 FCP per site, fix all the SCP, and make it not free anymore. Publish the rates and cost, but then subsidize it for a defined period with the money that we would have to pay the EU in fines or a percentage thereof. Then remove motor tax from EV for a defined period also. If people saw they could drive for free for a set period (1/3/5 years) with a functional network of charging I would guess (like norway) they would be more interested.

I still get the "milk float" and "there isnt enough electricity to cover EV use" jokes at MSA FCPs from mouth breathing fossil car drivers, so we clearly have a long way to go.

reboot

Am reading that Denmark cutting subsides big time.?
.

Water John

Varadkar has just made a special commitment to a climate change and carbon emissions, tasking Denis Naughton to devise a plan. Also, the first full day Cabinet focus day, will be on this.

Maybe time to press the case for EV plans.

unkel

Great point. Thank heavens for a young gay progressive taoiseach. Now is the time to get him charged (pun Intended) :-)

reboot

Would be a nice if he could suggest legislation to anyone in the North.
It looks like the introduction of fines and proper signage around charge points may still not have been enforced Six Years after the first electric vehicles hit the roads here.
Dept for Rural development sat on it for 3 years, until they handed it over to the 11 Councils who will all have to agree it one day.
If ice vehicles couldn't get access to pumps, there would be riots in the streets.

zilog_jones

It's not really any better down South - signage isn't the best, and enforcement of public charging points is poor to non-existent. There's nothing clear regarding fines, it seems to be down to local authorities.

BoatMad

zilog_jones wrote: »

It's not really any better down South - signage isn't the best, and enforcement of public charging points is poor to non-existent. There's nothing clear regarding fines, it seems to be down to local authorities.

Parking fines are the purview of LAs in the republic, they have the legislative power to designate charging spaces and fine non compliant users. Of course in reality only a few activity are ( wexford stands out as a model )

ED E

Water John wrote: »

tasking Denis Naughton to devise a plan

Doomed so.

liamog

Water John wrote: »

tasking Denis Naughton to devise a plan

Roscommon is going to get so many Fast Chargers.

reboot

Why fast?, and at what cost, compared to 22 kva?

BoatMad

reboot wrote: »

Why fast?, and at what cost, compared to 22 kva?

Naughton is one of the TDs from Roscommon , it was a serious comment

reboot

Sorry I wasn't being critical, but the cost of various charge points comes up from time to time, and can depend on individual requirements, and even the model of EV you drive. If as in England, people are now having to pay £5 for a twenty minute charge, the overall cost of CPs becomes a factor. Some fast CPs can deliver 160 kw, and smaller ones across Europe only 7 kw. The difference in installation, purchase price and maintenance, can mean a difference of maybe a hundred thousand Euro, per CP. Thanks.

oppenheimer1

unkel wrote: »

Great point. Thank heavens for a young gay progressive taoiseach. Now is the time to get him charged (pun Intended) :-)

You think Varadakar is a progressive?!

The thing is they will probably push EV as a cheap solution for emissions over what they should do which is invest in public transport infrastructure. Of course they should do both....