Can agreeing to online terms and conditions put me into a contract?

Renatadejesus

Hi all, I was recently looking to transfer some money and looking for the best deal came across a company called XE transfer, I have known XE exchange for years as I use it on my phone to check exchange rates.

I just wanted a quote so entered my details and clicked agree on the terms and conditions. the quote I got for the transfer wasn't as good as one I got from my bank so decided to go with them.

About a week later I had an mail from XE asking if I wanted to go ahead with the transfer and I said that I didn't. Last Friday got a letter from them saying that I had a contract with them and that I now owed them 350 Euros and if I don't pay them in 14 days they are going to take legal action.

Can anyone tell me if there is any legal basis for them to do this or are they just chancing it? I never signed any contract and was only looking for info. Anyone had similar experience with this kind of thing in online terms and conditions?

I looked over the terms and conditions and didn't notice anything about a contract. Also I'm from Brazil so English is my second language so don't really understand all the legal language...

rubadub

Renatadejesus wrote: »

I looked over the terms and conditions and didn't notice anything about a contract. Also I'm from Brazil so English is my second language so don't really understand all the legal language...

You could cut & paste some of the info here, leaving out your name etc.

Did you get an actual physical letter, or an email? Did you give them any bank info at all?

With emails I would type out a strange sounding phrase into google and use "quotes". By using quotes it makes google to search for that exact phrase, and you can quickly discover if it is a scam or not.

e.g. searching pink elephant jumps gets 4,200,000 hits

"pink elephant jumps" gets 7 hits.


If it was an actual letter type in exact phrases and search.

Cabaal

What's the url for the website in question?

Renatadejesus

Rubadub; Ive got a psychical letter outlining the terms and conditions of the "trade" and that I have 14 days to pay them. Alson I got the following email:

I understand from your previous email that you may wish to cancel contract C4718689.

As confirmed within step 5 of 5 on our online dealing platform:
“Exchange rates can go up as well as down. When you confirm a transaction online, XE Money Transfer secures your rate of exchange as soon as we receive your order. You are liable for any cost that is incurred if you cancel the transaction.”

Today’s rate is indicating at 4.1139 (15.44). This means that if we sold the AED87,000 back on the market today, we would receive EUR21,147.82. Compared to your original contract, this results in a cost payable by you of EUR293.43. Please note that all rates quoted above are subject to change based on market fluctuations.

Bearing this in mind, please can you confirm, as soon as possible, if you would like me to close out the contract for you?

Kind regards,
Credit Team

They asked for a proof of address and ID, and I sent a passport copy and a bank statement (i know it was pretty stupid i sent such important info)

godtabh

that sounds more like you were playing the currency markets than transferring money

Link to T&Cs

First paragraph

Your attention is drawn
to clause 8.6 of these terms and conditions which sets out the consequences which will apply following
termination of a foreign exchange trade prior to the originally agreed date or prior to settlement of such
trade.

8.6 Consequences of Termination
If the Contract is terminated for any reason:
8.6.1 we:
a) will Close Out any Trade not yet completed, which you acknowledge may involve us entering into a
Reversal Transaction;
b) will notify you of the Close Out Cost that we will claim from you as a genuine pre-estimation of the
cost to us of Close Out;
c) will notify you of any Further Loss;
Personal Terms and Conditions | V. XEMT 1.0 10/2016
d) may use any sum which you have paid us (including any Security Payment), in satisfaction of that
Close Out Cost and / or Further Loss, unless the Close Out or termination is as a result of our being
placed into receivership, administration or liquidation;
e) will return the balance of any sum which you have paid us that remains to you after settlement of all
liabilities; and
8.6.2 you must pay us on demand the amount of the Close Out Cost and / or Further Loss that we claim
following any Close Out or termination, unless the Close Out or termination is as a result of our being
placed into receivership, administration or liquidation.

All their blurb says free trade yet their T&Cs are nasty but you agreed to it

coylemj

Their website (xe.com) says 'free online quotes', you asked for a quote and they send you an invoice

No way can they enforce this 'debt', they are total chancers. Just ignore them.

Renatadejesus

Cabaal: I tried to paste the url here but im not able as Im new user sorry. But its was done thru the XE money transfer website. Thanks

Pawwed Rig

The fact that AML was submitted would indicate more than a vague quote.

Renatadejesus

I opened an account on their website to simulate an international transfer to see how much Id have to pay in total for an international transfer. Apparently, what I did was a trade contract and the XE money transfer purchased the foreigner currency to "lock the best rate" and as I didnt go ahead with the transaction they had to sell back the currency on the market and now they are asking me to pay their loss regarding to the exchange rate fluctuation or else they are going to take legal action against me. Is this ever legal? What legal action can they take? Thanks

Deub

And if the exchange rate was favorable, would they transfer the profit to you?
It is really weird.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Renatadejesus wrote: »

I opened an account on their website to simulate an international transfer to see how much Id have to pay in total for an international transfer. Apparently, what I did was a trade contract and the XE money transfer purchased the foreigner currency to "lock the best rate" and as I didnt go ahead with the transaction they had to sell back the currency on the market and now they are asking me to pay their loss regarding to the exchange rate fluctuation or else they are going to take legal action against me. Is this ever legal? What legal action can they take? Thanks

Then you did not just ask for a quote at all.

Renatadejesus

I doubt if exchange was favourable they would give me the profit, actually I'm not even sure if they didn't make a profit.

I thought I was doing a quote to an international transfer, not a contract.

davo10

Renatadejesus wrote: »

I doubt if exchange was favourable they would give me the profit, actually I'm not even sure if they didn't make a profit.

I thought I was doing a quote to an international transfer, not a contract.

So what is saying is that you effectively went through the whole process of ordering currency on the website, to see what the end cost would be? Before you pressed "confirm" or "buy" or whatever the last stage is, you would have been asked if you agreed to the t&cs.

Op, from your description, it sounds like you went through the process and actually ordered the currency while agreeing to the t&cs, you obviously gave them all your details so yes, a contract can be formed online, people do it everyday when they order/buy stuff.

CeilingFly

Exchange rates change every second of the day. So whilst with the bank you got a better rate, possibly the rate changed in that time anyway.

At the end of the day, you ticked the box agreeing to terms and conditions which you should have read and they are well within their rights to ask you to mitigate their loss.

AED is now at 4.136, so the cost to close out the contract has risen by about €100

I'm guessing that the email from them above was from 1st june.

Example on movements

On 29th May 87,000 aed at 7pm GMT would have got you €21,167 whereas the following morning at 7am you would have got €21,302 and at 3pm on 30th you would have got €21,193. (all rates are mid market and exclude commissions)

So in less than 24 hours the markets moved almost 1% higher and then back.

As of now at 9.50am 87,000 gets you €21,050

Back on May 8th, 87,000 would have got you €21,845

Renatadejesus

Anyone knows what kind of legal action can they take please? Thanks

Peregrinus

Same as anybody else who reckons you owe them money. They can sue you.

They probably won't, for 350 euro, but I don't know whether you may find the e-mail address, etc, associated with your registration with XE is not welcomed by other financial institutions.

jamesthepeach

I did the same thing on Amazon once. I went to buy just to see what the currency was and was going to back out at the end. Turned out I completed the purchase and it went through.
Just contacted them, told them.about my mistake. And they cancelled it.

AndrewJRenko

Renatadejesus wrote: »

Anyone knows what kind of legal action can they take please? Thanks

Do they have your postal address?

Renatadejesus

Ill get in touch to them to see if any reversal can be done from their side. If they sue me it will cost me a fortune that i dont have =(
Yes they have my postal address and copy of my passport.

CeilingFly

Renatadejesus wrote: »

Ill get in touch to them to see if any reversal can be done from their side. If they sue me it will cost me a fortune that i dont have =(
Yes they have my postal address and copy of my passport.

The financial markets don't work that way. They made an irrevocable contract in the market on your behalf. They can't just say "whoops" we don't want that.

The reversal amount has not been fixed yet, you just got the amount at that point of time. Currently it is about €450. That will go up or down with the market until you confirm you are not proceeding.

As for legal action. Its fairly simple for them as there's no real defence (not understanding that you agreed to terms and conditions is not a defence), and they just have to complete a simple form and lodge it in the courts.

Assuming they get judgement, it then follows you for 12 years and will affect everything from loans to such things as bill pay phone contracts.

Others will suggest you ignore it, I'd say the same for a €40 phone bill, but €350-€450 and in reality an indefensible debt, they'll probably go to the fairly small amount of hassle to bring it to court. Don't forget, legal fees get added too but not crazy - probably another €300-€500.

L1011

Renatadejesus wrote: »

Ill get in touch to them to see if any reversal can be done from their side. If they sue me it will cost me a fortune that i dont have =(
Yes they have my postal address and copy of my passport.

The reversal is what is being offered - a sell back of the dirham you bought.

CeilingFly

jamesthepeach wrote: »

I did the same thing on Amazon once. I went to buy just to see what the currency was and was going to back out at the end. Turned out I completed the purchase and it went through.
Just contacted them, told them.about my mistake. And they cancelled it.

Quite different. With credit card transactions you can void them on the same day before they are batched.

If you contacted them the next day, they would have refunded but in the currency you paid and you'd have seen a small difference in the refund in euro terms.

AndrewJRenko

CeilingFly wrote: »

As for legal action. Its fairly simple for them as there's no real defence (not understanding that you agreed to terms and conditions is not a defence), and they just have to complete a simple form and lodge it in the courts.

I've often wondered if there would be a defence based on the general unfairness of getting consumers to click Yes to a long, legalistic, cumbersome set of terms and conditions prepared by a team of technical lawyers. There is a fundamental unfairness in this relationship. I've no idea about the XE conditions, but at a guess, they are probably very difficult to understand for the average person. If we take the OP's story at face value, it kind-of proves this point.

L1011

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've often wondered if there would be a defence based on the general unfairness of getting consumers to click Yes to a long, legalistic, cumbersome set of terms and conditions prepared by a team of technical lawyers. There is a fundamental unfairness in this relationship. I've no idea about the XE conditions, but at a guess, they are probably very difficult to understand for the average person. If we take the OP's story at face value, it kind-of proves this point.

If you go as far as providing detailed proof of ID for a transaction, you have a duty of care to understand what you're agreeing to really.

rubadub

CeilingFly wrote: »

Quite different. With credit card transactions you can void them on the same day before they are batched.

If you contacted them the next day, they would have refunded but in the currency you paid and you'd have seen a small difference in the refund in euro terms.

Yeah, I got some sort of refund before, don't think it was a change of mind, more like a paypal refund on something which never turned up, but either way I lost out a little due to the conversion. Think it was sterling, some highly fluctuating currencies would be worse.

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

There is a fundamental unfairness in this relationship. I've no idea about the XE conditions, but at a guess, they are probably very difficult to understand for the average person.

The OP is from Brazil, I was the first to reply and really hoping it was yet another obvious scam and that the wording would be immediately obvious to an English speaker familiar with scams.

No matter what language you speak having to give your postal address, a scan of your passport, and a bank statement should tell you it is not trivial. If my own bank/solicitor/employer asked for those I'd be wary! why would you need that for simple quote, putting off potential customers big time.

Southpark had a full episode joking about apple's lengthy terms & conditions by clicking yes, the first post sounded like all he did was "click yes" but it was far from that.

Peregrinus

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I've often wondered if there would be a defence based on the general unfairness of getting consumers to click Yes to a long, legalistic, cumbersome set of terms and conditions prepared by a team of technical lawyers. There is a fundamental unfairness in this relationship. I've no idea about the XE conditions, but at a guess, they are probably very difficult to understand for the average person. If we take the OP's story at face value, it kind-of proves this point.

But the OP's problem here isn't that there is something onerous and unexpected and unfair buried in the small print. His problem is that he thinks (or hopes) that agreements made over the internet can't result in legally binding contracts. But, obviously, they can; otherwise Amazon's business model wouldn't work.

If he's going to argue unfairness, he'll need to say that, based on what he saw or could have seen on the screen, he couldn't have known that by filing in his details, opening an account and clicking "buy" (or whatever; I've no idea what the on-screen interface looked like) he couldn't reasonably be expected to have known that he was agreeing to buy something.

Fred Swanson

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