Feeling heartbroken

6thJune2017

I am a regular poster but I have gone anon for this. I recently found out that my brother has a child who he does not see. The little girl is 4 years old. To say I am stunned is an understatement. Not only because I am the last to know but because I have niece my brother doesn’t see. My brother had a one night whilst married. His wife forgave him and they agreed he would have no contact with the child. I told my brother that someday his little girl will want to know who her Dad is and he should be having a relationship with her. He pays maintenance but has told me in order to keep his wife, he will not have contact with her. The thing is, I cannot get this little girl out of my head. I would really like to make contact with her mother (who I located through Social Media) if even to have a picture of her. It hurts me to think the little girl will grow up without knowing who her family are. I really appreciate any advice as to what I should do.

SB_Part2

TBH, as much as it's hurting you it's none of your business.

Ursus Horribilis

Sorry OP but your only option here is to do nothing. What has happened here is between your brother, his wife and the little girl's mum. I'm sure it's no picnic for any of them and that it's the elephant in the room. If you poke your nose into this, you cannot predict what the fallout will be. It could cost your brother his marriage, your relationship with him and with any other children he has. It could cause unexpected rifts in your extended family. And at the end of it all, you might not get any closer to meeting your little niece.

You should sit back and leave things alone. Perhaps things will change in the future regarding your brother's relationship with his daughter. Nothing's set in stone. But please, stay out of this.

Big Bag of Chips

I have to agree, OP. You know nothing about any circumstances here. You don't know about the mother of the child. If she is in a relationship if the child has someone they see as "daddy". Unfortunately lots of children grow up without fathers for various reasons but they turn out ok. The child is only 4. Her mother is her primary carer and it is her decision whether or not she wishes to pursue a relationship with the other side of her daughter's family. She has chosen not to.

You cannot get involved here. You cannot try to have a relationship with your niece if her father isn't/can't/doesn't want to be involved. By pushing this you are interfering in your brothers marriage, and nobody will thank you for it. I can't say I agree with them. But I can understand the pain it has caused your brother's wife. There are no winners here.

The child won't be 4 forever. More than likely the time will come when she will look for her dad. And her other relatives. But that could be 20 years away. Hard as it may be for you, the child isn't actually missing out by not having contact with you. She will have plenty of other people filling her life.

Please don't follow this up.

Penn

Totally agree with other posters. You risk affecting your brother's marriage, your relationship with your brother, and the arrangement between your brother and the child's mother. It's their child. You have no idea if the child wants for anything or not. The mother may have a partner now who is like a father to the child. Plus, many children grow up with only one parent or only know one side of their family for various reasons.

Your brother has made his decision, and is doing the right thing by still paying maintenance. Don't risk all that your brother has for no good reason. If the child wants to find him when she's older, that will be her decision then, and your brother and his wife will have to deal with that then. None of this is your decision to make, and you could upset a lot of people even just asking the mother for a photo of the child. It also won't make you feel better.

You need to accept the situation as it is, and the fact that the only people who could make that decision are happy with it. Please try and move on from it and don't give your brother a hard time over it. Regardless of whether he's having a relationship with his daughter or not, he's paying maintenance. He's doing the best he can from this situation, and it's his decision to make.

ManOfMystery

100% agree with anyone else.

She may be your niece by blood, but sadly and unfortunately that bond is secondary to her relationship with her immediate family. It is not your place to get involved in her life in any shape or form without your brother's blessing; to do so would create an impact on his life and you may very well end up worse than you started out, with no contact allowed with your niece and a brother who is angry with you - or worse.

You just have to let this one go I'm afraid. It may change in time but if it does, it absolutely cannot be you that is the catalyst for that.

LegacyUser

Personally I totally disagree with the idea that it's none of your business, that child is a member of your family regardless of the current circumstances. I have a very similar situation in my family and if it were at all possible, I'd be keeping that relationship alive.

In passing, I'd also have to say I think your brother and his wife are very wrong in how they have concocted an agreement between them that affects the child without appearing to consider that fact. Great for them that they manage to maintain their marriage and never mind the collateral damage.

For your next move, I'd consider a few potential outcomes;
How prepared are you to damage or even lose your relationship with your brother and/or your sister-in-law? In order to make contact, you'd have to be ignoring somebody's wishes (possibly your brother would be secretly glad mind you, if he told you himself or told someone else, it's weighing on him).

How prepared are you for the potential rejection of your niece's mother? She may simply not want to drag up questions for her daughter and just not answer your contact.

How prepared are you for becoming the whole of your niece's father's side of the family? If you're the sole representative, you can't arrive in a blaze of excitement then fade out of events, the child would be better off if you never showed up to begin with. You may have to commit more than her father did.

How sure is your knowledge of all this? You have the inside track on your sister in law's ultimatum, so I'm guessing your brother told you, but that may not be the whole picture and I wouldn't be surprised to find it was more than a one night stand.

Another day

Having been in a similar situation I can totally understand where you are coming from. Unfortunately you have to respect your brother's wishes...for now. I have no doubt in time the situation will change, for whatever reason. If you approach this child and it's mother you will create an awkward situation. You will have to face the child asking why daddy doesn't want her, does he have other children etc. This could end up causing more upset and rejection.

It is more than likely the child has accepted the situation as it is, the mother will answer questions as she sees fit. Don't do anything to upset that.

If you really feel you need to do something, prepare for the day contact is made. Write a letter telling them how you feel, how you hope they are happy etc. Fill them in on your family, anything relevant.

eviltwin

Yeah stay out of it. It's not fair to either the child or her mother and she may not welcome your contact. It's not your responsibility either to provide your niece with a connection to her paternal family, that's your brothers job and he's chosen not to be involved. I can understand your feelings and maybe you need to take some time to absorb this and get used to it but don't contact them, it's not your place.

SimpleDimples

My heart goes out to you. In a similar situation to you, I could imagine feeling the exact same. You're an aunt to a child that unfortunately due to circumstances outside your control you cannot have contact with.

Take comfort in the fact by not reaching out to the child or her mother, you are actually doing the right thing and the only real option available to you right now. While your intentions are admirable you could end up doing a lot more damage to the child than you could ever intend. The child doesn't know any better and is unlikely to benefit from your contact. It will create a ****storm of difficulties for her mother, your brother, his wife, your extended family and to what gain.

Unfortunately, all you can do is wait and see if citcumstances change over time. If it's any comfort to you, one of my nieces doesn't have any contact with her father's family and she is a very happy little child who hasn't suffered by their absense. I can only imagine the confusion it would cause her of any of them entered her life now.

6thJune2017

Hi everyone. Thank you all for your comments. I only found this news out 4 weeks ago so really trying to digest it all. I appreciate all your advice.

Ursus Horribilis

I hope things work out for you in time. I'd be devastated if my little nieces and nephews were taken away from me. It's a horrible situation in which there are no winners and it's desperately sad.

LegacyUser

It's funny to read this post today. I'm coming at this from an another perspective entirely. I am/was a child like your niece . My parents were married but when they separated when I was 3. When they did my fathers entire family broke all ties with us. Now I'm 30. I wonder what my life would've been like if I'd had them there as a backup even if I didn't have him.

Recently I've started looking into them, I've found cousins and an aunt on facebook and its fascinating to look at them and see what they're like. They look great. I'd love to make touch with them but I feel like they've gone on, been obviously very happy without me. They've always known where I was but have never bothered with me so I can't imagine how I'd go about introducing myself to them now. I feel like they obviously just not want me in the picture for whatever reason.

I really don't think you should forget about your niece. Even if you can't visit her maybe make a commitment to send a birthday card and Christmas card every year so someday when she thinks of you she'll know you cared or made some effort. Or if you can't do that write some letters now that you don't send and tell her how you feel and how you'd like to get in touch. Then someday when she's older make touch and give them to her so she'll know it mattered to you all along. If I had some slight notion the people I'm related to cared at all it would mean so much to me.

Idle Passerby

I'm of a slightly different opinion that most of the previous posters. The arrangement your brother and his wife made with the girls mother is theirs. I don't think their lack of interest in knowing the child should dictate the relationship you have with her.

Personally I think choosing a marriage he was willing to be unfaithful in over his own child is wrong, but that's irrelevant to your issue.

I think if you want a relationship with your niece, don't let your brother's choices be your guide. Approach the mother yourself. She may welcome developing a friendly relationship with her daughter's aunt or she may not. You can tell your brother/ ask his permission if you want but ultimately he's made his choice, your entitled to make your own.

_Whimsical_

SimpleDimples wrote: »

My heart goes out to you. In a similar situation to you, I could imagine feeling the exact same. You're an aunt to a child that unfortunately due to circumstances outside your control you cannot have contact with.

Take comfort in the fact by not reaching out to the child or her mother, you are actually doing the right thing and the only real option available to you right now. While your intentions are admirable you could end up doing a lot more damage to the child than you could ever intend. The child doesn't know any better and is unlikely to benefit from your contact. It will create a ****storm of difficulties for her mother, your brother, his wife, your extended family and to what gain.

Unfortunately, all you can do is wait and see if citcumstances change over time. If it's any comfort to you, one of my nieces doesn't have any contact with her father's family and she is a very happy little child who hasn't suffered by their absense. I can only imagine the confusion it would cause her of any of them entered her life now.

What harm could this lady possibly cause the child? Every child needs as many loving adults in their lives as they can possibly get. Every child knows they have a father and it will eventually dawn on that child that hers is not around and she'll hopefully cope fine with that. Having an aunt from that side of the family will not upend her or her concept of her life. It doesn't have to be picking at the wound that her dad isn't in her life. I say that as someone who has some experience in this regard.

I feel like saying this is a terrible idea for the child is just not true and unfair. The only threat that can come from this woman having a relationship with the child is to her brothers marriage or her relationship with her brother. That's a big thing to weigh up as a sister, an enormous thing even, I couldn't know for what I'd do here, I wouldn't like to make the decision but I wouldn't fool myself into thinking it's kindest for the child to stay away and not even try to see what the childs mother thinks.

It's not the "right thing to do" to allow any child grow up not knowing she's loved and acknowledged and cherished in the way all children deserve to be by their family. No child deserves to think "I wonder what it was about me that made them never contact me" and someday she will, maybe not until she's a lot older but it will happen. No child has ever grown up to say "I had too many people who loved me. That aunt was wonderful, loving and supportive and affirming but I wish she hadn't been there".
No matter what way you look at it this child is getting a raw deal here and sometimes that's life, it might be the best thing to do by this girls brother and wife to stay away, it might be the easiest thing but it's not the best thing or the right or the most moral thing for the child not to even try.

SimpleDimples

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

What harm could this lady possibly cause the child?

Directly absolutely none but the child's parents, righty or wrongly, have made a decision that the child's father's family will not be in her life. It's not a case that the child's mother has reached out looking for contact.

For me the risk, that all of the adults would react badly and the child would get dragging into it, would be enough for me to leave things are they are for now.

It's a horrible situation and there are no winners.

_Whimsical_

SimpleDimples wrote: »

<Snip> The post is just there ^. No need to repost.

It's difficult to know from the description here where the mother is at. She could have been told her maintenance is conditional on her staying away from the father and his family, she may presume his entire family know of the child and don't consider her worthy of a place in the family. You just don't know.
I would not assume from the information given that the child's best interests were what dictated the arrangement.

I think the main risk here is to this ladies relationship with her brother and the relationship between husband and wife. I don't think the child would be at all negatively impacted by contact with the aunt or by the aunt contacting the mum to ask what her wishes would be.

GritBiscuit

I'm with _Whimsical_

Yes, we have no idea the conditions agreed in which the father would not be a part of his daughter's life, nor that that the mother would be influenced re her daughters paternal family.

And yes, posters are absolutely right RE your brother - that's for his conscience to make peace with. But...She is your niece and you are her aunt. It is absolutely your business but I am sure you are only too aware that acting on the information may very well cause permanent irreparable damage between yourself and your brother and his married family. At the end of the day this child will one day get to decide for themselves who is considered family and you, the OP, gets to decide whether that child grows up knowing you cared or assuming you don't. That's a weighty decision and if I were you OP, I'd let my conscience lead me.

Best of luck!

amtc

This is the subject of the problem page in the Sunday Independent today, and advice is to talk to the brother

_Whimsical_

amtc wrote: »

<Snip> The post is just there ^. No need to repost.

I was just about to mention that!
I'd be curious to know if the OP wrote in or if the problem was just lifted from boards.ie?

If you wrote in that's fair enough OP, you're feeling understandably upset and conflicted and you deserve as much advice as you can get. Maybe consider discussing this with a counsellor where you might be able to talk frankly about your feelings and distress and afterwards what to do might come into clearer focus for you. You might feel stronger too to do whatver you yourself feel is right.

amtc

It must've been directly written in.

I don't think there is much point in talking to a counsellor, as the options are pretty clear. All the op can do is talk to her brother, and perhaps in time make a very subtle approach to the mother being prepared to be rebuffed or ignored.

In the original post, the op says that they recently found out. How? Is there another person who could act as go between?

_Whimsical_

amtc wrote: »

<Snip> The post is just there ^. No need to repost.

Counselling can very much help someone find how best to cope for them personally with something, sometimes it is learning to accept what is and sometimes its doing something to change it. It doesn't sound like this is something the OP can discuss this with friends or other family as it's very sensitive and a lot depends on it being kept confidential .Talking something through can make a massive difference to a person. OP if you're reading please don't discount that possibility.

Also it wouldn't the first time a news paper has lifted something staight from boards.

RhubarbCrumble

OP, it's an awkward situation for sure, but to be honest I think you're better off staying out of it.
Trust me you won't be thanked at the end of the day.

Big Bag of Chips

If the parents have decided then even though you are an aunt you don't automatically have access rights to the child. If you wanted to pursue it then you would have to go before a judge to apply for leave to apply for access. Similar to grandparents. You would have to prove that it is in the child's best interests for you to have access.

I suppose you could contact the mother if you wanted to. But you would have to respect whatever decision she makes. If she agreed to access for you, what would you tell the child? Would you explain who you are? That you're her dad's sister? That even though she can't see her dad she can see you? Or would you lie and pretend to be someone else?

I don't know what I'd do if I was the mother in this case. My priority would always be my child, and what I think is best for her. And I think if I felt that introducing an aunt from her father's side, when she has never met and is unlikely to meet her father anytime soon, would only confuse or upset her or bring up questions that she wouldn't have asked yet, then I would not let it happen. I don't think, at this point, it would be in the child's best interests. And she's the only person that needs to be considered here.

Lady is a tramp

It's a lot more heartbreaking for the people directly involved - i.e. first and foremost the mother of the child.

Bad enough to have been left to raise the child alone, without you contacting her out of the blue looking for photos etc. What would you do in her position? Hand over photos of your child to someone who is essentially a stranger to her? She's certainly unlikely to start confusing the child by introducing you into the child's life, when the child's own dad isn't interested.

I think you're being quite selfish by taking this on as your own issue. It's not. The people involved are the child's parents and their partners. Don't muddy the waters even more by trying to insert yourself into the equation to fulfil your own agenda. It's not fair on anyone involved, and most of all it's not fair on the child.

nikkibikki

I've got a nephew I've never met. He's thousands of miles away. If I won the lotto, the first thing I'd do is bring all the family to meet him. I understand completely how you want to be part of your nieces life.

I would be sick to my stomach at the attitude of your brother and his wife. I would have no respect for a person, man or woman, who would abandon their own child. Does the wife think that if he has no contact with the child that it'll just be forgotten about? It's 2017 ffs. His actions are cowardly.

I think I would have to reach out to the mother. Let her know you've just found out and that you'd like to be involved if possible. That you understand completely if it's not what she wants but if that ever changes, to not hesitate to get in touch with you. I think it would be an awful shame for this child to have no contact with her dad's family in these circumstances. Just look at the post above from the child in a similar situation who is now a grown adult. And to that poster, reach out to them. What have you got to lose? They may be leaving it up to you to contact them whenever you are ready.

_Whimsical_

I fully agree with nikkibikki. I actually find some of the opinions on this thread quite sad. The complete disregard for the fact that the child has a right to know her family boggles me. It is 2017,the idea that children born outside of relationships are optional disposables should surely be long gone. No one should defend it. The ability of the father to sweep an inconvenient child under the carpet should never trump the rights of the child to a loving extended family. We are constantly learning the importance of support and love in a child's life and the negative impact of not receiving that. This thread reads much more like what I'd have expected to see in the 50s. Back then we might have blamed religious and cultural reasons for excusing a father hiding an "indescretion" from the world but now this there is no excuse beyond blatant selfishness. The idea of sacrificing this childs right to feel loved, accepted, to birthday presents and Christmas gifts and family days out just for selfishness of two adults really sticks in my throat but the fact that so many people don't really see a huge issue there and advise someone not to even try to remedy such a situation is just weirdly backward.

LegacyUser

I'm the grandmother of a child that has been rejected by its father since very early on his mother's pregnancy. The father has threatened his parents that if they have anything to do with the child that he will cut them out of his life. His parents did see the baby together once but he followed through with his threat for a few months and they caved in. Then one of the grandparents initiated contact again and was told there was no problem seeing the grandbaby as long as he intended being in the child's life and not a pop-in pop-out figure. He brought along close family members to two meetings and since the second meeting, nothing - complete radio silence. That was over a year ago. Maybe the grandparent has been threatened again with zero contact?

I can't even begin to guess how my daughter really feels. For me, I worry a lot about the child and how this complete and utter rejection will colour his life. How do you balance telling the child that his father so didn't want to be in its life in any shape or form and refused to let his family do so either so they were willing to reject the child unknown too, with filling the child full of confidence and security? It is probably the worst rejection of all. In the meantime in the interests of the child my entire family have to do the best by the child and make up excuses for the father when the child wants to know why his father didn't want him from the get go, why he hasn't softened like other dads have, why his grandparents don't want to know him and so on so that if he changes his mind and turns up eventually that they can have a relationship because that's what is best. My daughter has huge anxiety issues around contact from his family but because she felt that was what was best for her child she overcame those for his sake only to have him treated like he doesn't matter, that he is nothing to them.

So yes, your niece does deserve and need to have you in her life but only if the upset you will cause trying to be is going to be worth it, for want of a better phrase. She only needs you if you intend to actually be in her life and not drop the contact when your life goes through a bad patch or the fallout from the relationship gets too much for you or you move abroad or you get sick. As the saying goes, a niece is for life and not just for Christmas.

Lavinia

I would make a contact with your nieces mom first and see how it goes..
Good luck whatever you decide but yes, I think you would regret for not even trying to reach out.
I'll pray for you all.