Identification of murder victims.

political analyst

The following article was published before last night's attack.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40132395

Sarah Jenkins lost her daughter, Emily, in the 7 July 2005 atrocity. She campaigned to improve the information given to victim's families after a major incident, and worked with a government department on plans for an official website that would tell families which hospitals were treating victims, and provide help to arrange funerals and claim compensation.

She says she received a promise that the website would be launched, but after the Manchester bombing it was clear to her that little or nothing had changed.

John Ramsbottom, a retired police inspector, says the length of time it takes to identify a body after a bombing has to do with the complexity of the police operation. There are only four ways to definitively identify a body, he says - through fingerprints, DNA, dental records and surgical implants, such as a hip joint or a pace-maker with a unique serial number.
Wallets and ID documents are not considered strong enough evidence.

Do the police say to somebody, 'We are 90% sure we found them'? But then we leave them with 10% hope. Is it worse later if we destroy that 10% hope or not? That's not a legal or police question, it's a human-being question and I don't have the answer to it.

Why can't police take photographs of the faces of the deceased and show them to the relatives? The relatives would be able to identify the deceased in that way.

diomed

You are assuming there is a face.

Collie D

I'd imagine after a bombing a lot of victims can't be facially identified and trying to do so would cause the family a lot of unneeded stress.

The bit you quoted from the police officer reads to me like he's referring to cases like missing person presumed dead and out of context.

wakka12

I dont understand why some people who lose loved ones in events like bombings hold out any hope? Sorry to be harsh but if your loved one was at a tragic event like this and you are now not able to find or contact them then why would you believe theyre still alive?

McCrack

wakka12 wrote: »

I dont understand why some people who lose loved ones in events like bombings hold out any hope? Sorry to be harsh but if your loved one was at a tragic event like this and you are now not able to find or contact them then why would you believe theyre still alive?

Hope in the face of death is all families have, hope that theirs is not one of the victims. Hope until they hear otherwise.

I think its a perfectly understandable thing

political analyst

wakka12 wrote: »

I dont understand why some people who lose loved ones in events like bombings hold out any hope? Sorry to be harsh but if your loved one was at a tragic event like this and you are now not able to find or contact them then why would you believe theyre still alive?

Do you not think its possible for people who are caught in bomb explosions not just to survive but also to lose their phones, their ability to speak or their memory even of their own names?

political analyst

diomed wrote: »

You are assuming there is a face.

Then use photography for identification in cases where there is a face.

political analyst

Collie D wrote: »

I'd imagine after a bombing a lot of victims can't be facially identified and trying to do so would cause the family a lot of unneeded stress.

The bit you quoted from the police officer reads to me like he's referring to cases like missing person presumed dead and out of context.

In his hypothesis, he said, "We are 90% sure we found them". I assumed he meant, "We are 90% sure this fatality is your loved one".

There is a process that the authorities go through to identify Victims in these circumstances. They do not want to make a mistake or at worst tell a family that a loved one is dead when that is not the case.
Its always going to be too long for the families but I would prefer to be 100% sure than to be misinformed about something so serious.

political analyst

Deleted User wrote: »

There is a process that the authorities go through to identify Victims in these circumstances. They do not want to make a mistake or at worst tell a family that a loved one is dead when that is not the case.
Its always going to be too long for the families but I would prefer to be 100% sure than to be misinformed about something so serious.

Do you not think it's much worse to be told a missing relative is still alive only for it to turn out the relative is actually dead?

If you're wrongly told your loved one is dead but then find out they're actually alive then, surely, you'd be overcome by euphoria.

political analyst

political analyst wrote: »

Do you not think it's much worse to be told a missing relative is still alive only for it to turn out the relative is actually dead?

If you're wrongly told your loved one is dead but then find out they're actually alive then, surely, you'd be overcome by euphoria.

Police would never tell a family that a person was either alive or dead unless they were absolutely certain.

AzcuzCoz

Here is a good question that has been wrecking my head lately:
How do the cops identify bodies that are decomposed? What do decomposed bodies even look like, say after a year?

Can they be facially recognised?

Spanish Eyes

DNA. What is the problem with that now.

AzcuzCoz

How can they identify the decomposed corpse by DNA? Isn't that gone as well? How are they even able to determine a cause of death?

political analyst

AzcuzCoz wrote: »

How can they identify the decomposed corpse by DNA? Isn't that gone as well? How are they even able to determine a cause of death?

Does decomposition distort the molecular structure of DNA?

clairewithani

wakka12 wrote: »

I dont understand why some people who lose loved ones in events like bombings hold out any hope? Sorry to be harsh but if your loved one was at a tragic event like this and you are now not able to find or contact them then why would you believe theyre still alive?

Obviously have never lost a loved one. Disbelief is completely natural.

political analyst

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

DNA. What is the problem with that now.

That would take a long time.

political analyst

AzcuzCoz wrote: »

How do the cops identify bodies that are decomposed? What do decomposed bodies even look like, say after a year?

Dental records.

Really Interested

AzcuzCoz wrote: »

How can they identify the decomposed corpse by DNA? Isn't that gone as well? How are they even able to determine a cause of death?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21063882

If it could ID Richard III I assume it sticks around for a bit.

wakka12

McCrack wrote: »

Hope in the face of death is all families have, hope that theirs is not one of the victims. Hope until they hear otherwise.

I think its a perfectly understandable thing

Understandable maybe as in I can understand that they would be thinking irrationally due to being distraught
But its hardly logical? They're obviously dead

AzcuzCoz

political analyst wrote: »

Does decomposition distort the molecular structure of DNA?

Was that question aimed at me? What does a decomposed body look like, if you don't mind me asking?

wakka12

political analyst wrote: »

Do you not think its possible for people who are caught in bomb explosions not just to survive but also to lose their phones, their ability to speak or their memory even of their own names?

I think losing their phone is not an issue with this case as the bombing was in 2007
If a victim was injured and couldn't remember or speak, they would still be reunited with family eventually. Either through family searching hospitals or police issuing appeals for unnamed person etc

clairewithani

wakka12 wrote: »

Understandable maybe as in I can understand that they would be thinking irrationally due to being distraught
But its hardly logical? They're obviously dead

Because at a time of extreme stress, logic is not in control. Have you ever been distraught?

Spanish Eyes

political analyst wrote: »

That would take a long time.

But is is valid. Sad that it might take some time, but it is practically certain.

I realise that dental records are good evidence too. Provided the dentist can be located, AND that the person actually attended a dentist. Say a little child for instance.

martingriff

I was watching a program last night on discovery in relation to the Titanic. It was what happened after with the recovery of the bodies and identification. They have said that this means of identification is still used in large today even in 9/11. The bodies we going to be taken to Halifax Nova Socia and the person the a Jon Bearnstead created a system where each victim was given a number and all possessions are also given the same number. Then the persons description is taken down weight color of hair skin color, height approximate age, clothes and any features. If possible pictures were taken.

It maybe hard after a bomb attack to be able to take a picture or much features but you would think any description would be taken for some help that is if they can find them

wakka12

clairewithani wrote: »

Because at a time of extreme stress, logic is not in control. Have you ever been distraught?

Not to the point where I deluded myself into believing something completely unbelievable, thats why Im making the posts I made!

political analyst

AzcuzCoz wrote: »

Was that question aimed at me? What does a decomposed body look like, if you don't mind me asking?

Well, you said that decomposition rules out use of DNA.

AzcuzCoz

I don't know if it does, I'm not a forensic scientist. What does one look like, I am baffled by this. Is it unrecognisable? How?

clairewithani

wakka12 wrote: »

Not to the point where I deluded myself into believing something completely unbelievable, thats why Im making the posts I made!

Not distraught then.
Some questions
1. Have you lost a loved one?
2. If so how close?
3. If not we know why you can't get it.

political analyst

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

But is is valid. Sad that it might take some time, but it is practically certain.

I realise that dental records are good evidence too. Provided the dentist can be located, AND that the person actually attended a dentist. Say a little child for instance.

But knowing that a body is probably that of your loved one is better than having no idea at all. A photograph of the deceased's face would help the relatives to brace themselves for formal identification.

political analyst

wakka12 wrote: »

I think losing their phone is not an issue with this case as the bombing was in 2007
If a victim was injured and couldn't remember or speak, they would still be reunited with family eventually. Either through family searching hospitals or police issuing appeals for unnamed person etc

The London suicide bombings took place in 2005.

AzcuzCoz

What would a decomposed body look like? Please describe.

prinzeugen

Having seen pictures of the aftermath of a bombing, DNA is often the only option for certain victims.

I won't go into too much detail but you all know what a bomb can do to a solid brick building.

Human tissue stands no chance and each bit needs identifying.

clairewithani

AzcuzCoz wrote: »

What would a decomposed body look like? Please describe.

Sick question.

AzcuzCoz

I have always wondered it. I'm not looking for the gory details, just a brief summary.

Really Interested

AzcuzCoz wrote: »

I have always wondered it. I'm not looking for the gory details, just a brief summary.

Google! Plenty of pics online.