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Identification of murder victims.

  • 04-06-2017 10:42pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,802 ✭✭✭


    The following article was published before last night's attack.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40132395

    Sarah Jenkins lost her daughter, Emily, in the 7 July 2005 atrocity. She campaigned to improve the information given to victim's families after a major incident, and worked with a government department on plans for an official website that would tell families which hospitals were treating victims, and provide help to arrange funerals and claim compensation.

    She says she received a promise that the website would be launched, but after the Manchester bombing it was clear to her that little or nothing had changed.

    John Ramsbottom, a retired police inspector, says the length of time it takes to identify a body after a bombing has to do with the complexity of the police operation. There are only four ways to definitively identify a body, he says - through fingerprints, DNA, dental records and surgical implants, such as a hip joint or a pace-maker with a unique serial number.
    Wallets and ID documents are not considered strong enough evidence.
    Do the police say to somebody, 'We are 90% sure we found them'? But then we leave them with 10% hope. Is it worse later if we destroy that 10% hope or not? That's not a legal or police question, it's a human-being question and I don't have the answer to it.

    Why can't police take photographs of the faces of the deceased and show them to the relatives? The relatives would be able to identify the deceased in that way.


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,744 ✭✭✭diomed


    You are assuming there is a face.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,438 ✭✭✭✭Collie D


    I'd imagine after a bombing a lot of victims can't be facially identified and trying to do so would cause the family a lot of unneeded stress.

    The bit you quoted from the police officer reads to me like he's referring to cases like missing person presumed dead and out of context.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    I dont understand why some people who lose loved ones in events like bombings hold out any hope? Sorry to be harsh but if your loved one was at a tragic event like this and you are now not able to find or contact them then why would you believe theyre still alive?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,004 ✭✭✭McCrack


    wakka12 wrote: »
    I dont understand why some people who lose loved ones in events like bombings hold out any hope? Sorry to be harsh but if your loved one was at a tragic event like this and you are now not able to find or contact them then why would you believe theyre still alive?

    Hope in the face of death is all families have, hope that theirs is not one of the victims. Hope until they hear otherwise.

    I think its a perfectly understandable thing


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,802 ✭✭✭political analyst


    wakka12 wrote: »
    I dont understand why some people who lose loved ones in events like bombings hold out any hope? Sorry to be harsh but if your loved one was at a tragic event like this and you are now not able to find or contact them then why would you believe theyre still alive?

    Do you not think its possible for people who are caught in bomb explosions not just to survive but also to lose their phones, their ability to speak or their memory even of their own names?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,802 ✭✭✭political analyst


    diomed wrote: »
    You are assuming there is a face.

    Then use photography for identification in cases where there is a face.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,802 ✭✭✭political analyst


    Collie D wrote: »
    I'd imagine after a bombing a lot of victims can't be facially identified and trying to do so would cause the family a lot of unneeded stress.

    The bit you quoted from the police officer reads to me like he's referring to cases like missing person presumed dead and out of context.

    In his hypothesis, he said, "We are 90% sure we found them". I assumed he meant, "We are 90% sure this fatality is your loved one".


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    There is a process that the authorities go through to identify Victims in these circumstances. They do not want to make a mistake or at worst tell a family that a loved one is dead when that is not the case.
    Its always going to be too long for the families but I would prefer to be 100% sure than to be misinformed about something so serious.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,802 ✭✭✭political analyst


    There is a process that the authorities go through to identify Victims in these circumstances. They do not want to make a mistake or at worst tell a family that a loved one is dead when that is not the case.
    Its always going to be too long for the families but I would prefer to be 100% sure than to be misinformed about something so serious.

    Do you not think it's much worse to be told a missing relative is still alive only for it to turn out the relative is actually dead?

    If you're wrongly told your loved one is dead but then find out they're actually alive then, surely, you'd be overcome by euphoria.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Do you not think it's much worse to be told a missing relative is still alive only for it to turn out the relative is actually dead?

    If you're wrongly told your loved one is dead but then find out they're actually alive then, surely, you'd be overcome by euphoria.

    Police would never tell a family that a person was either alive or dead unless they were absolutely certain.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 97 ✭✭AzcuzCoz


    Here is a good question that has been wrecking my head lately:
    How do the cops identify bodies that are decomposed? What do decomposed bodies even look like, say after a year?

    Can they be facially recognised?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    DNA. What is the problem with that now.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 97 ✭✭AzcuzCoz


    How can they identify the decomposed corpse by DNA? Isn't that gone as well? How are they even able to determine a cause of death?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,802 ✭✭✭political analyst


    AzcuzCoz wrote: »
    How can they identify the decomposed corpse by DNA? Isn't that gone as well? How are they even able to determine a cause of death?

    Does decomposition distort the molecular structure of DNA?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭clairewithani


    wakka12 wrote: »
    I dont understand why some people who lose loved ones in events like bombings hold out any hope? Sorry to be harsh but if your loved one was at a tragic event like this and you are now not able to find or contact them then why would you believe theyre still alive?

    Obviously have never lost a loved one. Disbelief is completely natural.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,802 ✭✭✭political analyst


    DNA. What is the problem with that now.

    That would take a long time.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,802 ✭✭✭political analyst


    AzcuzCoz wrote: »
    How do the cops identify bodies that are decomposed? What do decomposed bodies even look like, say after a year?

    Dental records.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭Really Interested


    AzcuzCoz wrote: »
    How can they identify the decomposed corpse by DNA? Isn't that gone as well? How are they even able to determine a cause of death?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-21063882

    If it could ID Richard III I assume it sticks around for a bit.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    McCrack wrote: »
    Hope in the face of death is all families have, hope that theirs is not one of the victims. Hope until they hear otherwise.

    I think its a perfectly understandable thing

    Understandable maybe as in I can understand that they would be thinking irrationally due to being distraught
    But its hardly logical? They're obviously dead


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 97 ✭✭AzcuzCoz


    Does decomposition distort the molecular structure of DNA?

    Was that question aimed at me? What does a decomposed body look like, if you don't mind me asking?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Do you not think its possible for people who are caught in bomb explosions not just to survive but also to lose their phones, their ability to speak or their memory even of their own names?

    I think losing their phone is not an issue with this case as the bombing was in 2007
    If a victim was injured and couldn't remember or speak, they would still be reunited with family eventually. Either through family searching hospitals or police issuing appeals for unnamed person etc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭clairewithani


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Understandable maybe as in I can understand that they would be thinking irrationally due to being distraught
    But its hardly logical? They're obviously dead

    Because at a time of extreme stress, logic is not in control. Have you ever been distraught?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,100 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    That would take a long time.

    But is is valid. Sad that it might take some time, but it is practically certain.

    I realise that dental records are good evidence too. Provided the dentist can be located, AND that the person actually attended a dentist. Say a little child for instance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,266 ✭✭✭✭martingriff


    I was watching a program last night on discovery in relation to the Titanic. It was what happened after with the recovery of the bodies and identification. They have said that this means of identification is still used in large today even in 9/11. The bodies we going to be taken to Halifax Nova Socia and the person the a Jon Bearnstead created a system where each victim was given a number and all possessions are also given the same number. Then the persons description is taken down weight color of hair skin color, height approximate age, clothes and any features. If possible pictures were taken.

    It maybe hard after a bomb attack to be able to take a picture or much features but you would think any description would be taken for some help that is if they can find them


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    Because at a time of extreme stress, logic is not in control. Have you ever been distraught?

    Not to the point where I deluded myself into believing something completely unbelievable, thats why Im making the posts I made!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,802 ✭✭✭political analyst


    AzcuzCoz wrote: »
    Was that question aimed at me? What does a decomposed body look like, if you don't mind me asking?

    Well, you said that decomposition rules out use of DNA.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 97 ✭✭AzcuzCoz


    I don't know if it does, I'm not a forensic scientist. What does one look like, I am baffled by this. Is it unrecognisable? How?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭clairewithani


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Not to the point where I deluded myself into believing something completely unbelievable, thats why Im making the posts I made!

    Not distraught then.
    Some questions
    1. Have you lost a loved one?
    2. If so how close?
    3. If not we know why you can't get it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,802 ✭✭✭political analyst


    But is is valid. Sad that it might take some time, but it is practically certain.

    I realise that dental records are good evidence too. Provided the dentist can be located, AND that the person actually attended a dentist. Say a little child for instance.

    But knowing that a body is probably that of your loved one is better than having no idea at all. A photograph of the deceased's face would help the relatives to brace themselves for formal identification.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,802 ✭✭✭political analyst


    wakka12 wrote: »
    I think losing their phone is not an issue with this case as the bombing was in 2007
    If a victim was injured and couldn't remember or speak, they would still be reunited with family eventually. Either through family searching hospitals or police issuing appeals for unnamed person etc

    The London suicide bombings took place in 2005.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 97 ✭✭AzcuzCoz


    What would a decomposed body look like? Please describe.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭prinzeugen


    Having seen pictures of the aftermath of a bombing, DNA is often the only option for certain victims.

    I won't go into too much detail but you all know what a bomb can do to a solid brick building.

    Human tissue stands no chance and each bit needs identifying.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭clairewithani


    AzcuzCoz wrote: »
    What would a decomposed body look like? Please describe.

    Sick question.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 97 ✭✭AzcuzCoz


    I have always wondered it. I'm not looking for the gory details, just a brief summary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭Really Interested


    AzcuzCoz wrote: »
    I have always wondered it. I'm not looking for the gory details, just a brief summary.

    Google! Plenty of pics online.


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