Low Emission Buses for Dublin

bk

A few weeks ago there was another thread, which I can't find now, where we discussed why DB doesn't have EV buses. I tried to explain the benefit of first going from Euro 4 engines to Euro 6 engines and that once that is done, they will likely start going EV and hybrid.

Well the NTA has published a major plan to heavily invest in and grow bus services in Dublin, it is called BusConnects and you can see it here:

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/BusConnects_Brochure_Final.pdf

But specifically around Low Emissions Vehicles, it is planning to do exactly what I said it would, that it would soon turn to buying hybrid buses, etc. From the report:

Low Emission Vehicles

Tackling the challenges of climate change is a national priority.
BusConnects will contribute significantly to that objective.
Moving people from cars onto sustainable transport is essential in reducing CO2 emissions and addressing congestion. In addition, we intend to transition to a fleet of low emission vehicles, further enhancing the environmental contribution of the bus system.

The exact low emission technology remains to be determined.
Research is currently on-going into electric bus solutions, with
the technology evolving rapidly and several manufacturers now
bringing different vehicle options to market. Compressed natural
gas / biogas are relatively mature technologies which are now
extensively available to bus fleets.

As part of the BusConnects project, a decision on the optimum
fleet technology will be made by the end of 2017, and either
a single technology or a combination will be selected. A fleet
acquisition plan will be developed to transition the bus fleet to
low emission vehicle types, with the first vehicles under that
strategy to go into service during 2018.

By 2023 half of the bus fleet, approximately 500 buses, will
be converted to low emission vehicles. Full conversion will be
completed by 2030.

n97 mini

No mention of diesel. Just electric and CNG. I live in hope.

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

No mention of diesel. Just electric and CNG. I live in hope.

Realistically I'd expect it to be Hybrid Diesel, similar to what has become the norm for all new buses in London.

Full BEV double deckers just aren't there yet. Only a handful were built by BYD and trialled in London but weren't a success I believe.

CNG was previously trialled by DB and was a disaster, CNG has gone out of fashion in Europe and I don't think any of the European bus companies are making them anymore, so it would be hard to get some suitable for Ireland.

Wrigthbus, the bus company in Belfast, that the NTA buys pretty much all buses for DB and BE from, does build a variety of Diesel Hybrid for London and the UK, the Volvo B5LH (already trialled by DB) and Routemaster lites. So those or a variant on them would be the obvious choice, at least for the first few years.

Hopefully in time, BEV double deckers will be perfected and introduced.

Maybe they could go EV for the new single deck bendi bus destined for the three new BRT routes, but I wouldn't hold my breath on top, probably be hybrid diesel again.

KCross

bk wrote: »

Full BEV double deckers just aren't there yet. Only a handful were built by BYD and trialled in London but weren't a success I believe.

Why? Do you know?

bk wrote: »

CNG was previously trialled by DB and was a disaster, CNG has gone out of fashion in Europe and I don't think any of the European bus companies are making them anymore, so it would be hard to get some suitable for Ireland.

Again, why?
Isn't gas supposed to be a relatively clean fuel?

bk wrote: »

Wrigthbus, the bus company in Belfast, that the NTA buys pretty much all buses for DB and BE from, does build a variety of Diesel Hybrid for London and the UK, the Volvo B5LH (already trialled by DB) and Routemaster lites.

Is a bus a good candidate for hybrid tech? A lot of stop/start etc. Does that favour hybrid?
Is a hybrid bus similar in nature to a hybrid car? What size battery do they have?

bk wrote: »

Maybe they could go EV for the new single deck bendi bus destined for the three new BRT routes, but I wouldn't hold my breath on top, probably be hybrid diesel again.

Is there a reason why a single decker BEV would work but a double decker wouldn't? Is there some technical gotcha there?

bk

KCross wrote: »

Why? Do you know?

No official announcement. But they seem to have disappeared off the street of London shortly after they were announced last year and haven't been seen since.

That is usually a bad sign for a trial.

I suspect the issue is reduced passenger space and maybe range performance and reliability. Basically to fit enough batteries in they removed about 8 seats from the back of the bus to fill it with batteries instead.

Less passenger space is always bad news for a bus and particular removing downstairs seats which are usually used by elderly/disabled.

This looked like a pretty poor trial, just jam a lot of batteries in a normally Diesel bus. I think for a BEV double decker to be successful, it will require a ground up dedicated BEV bus, with modern Lithium Ion battery packs, probably integrated into the seating or the lower deck roof.

KCross wrote: »

Again, why?
Isn't gas supposed to be a relatively clean fuel?

A little cleaner, but not significantly so, at least not in a relatively small vehicle engine (power plants are a different story).

DB trialled CNG buses a few years ago. They found them way less reliable (lots of break downs) and they were way more costly to buy and maintain and also involved costly new infrastructure in the depots. It just wasn't worth the relatively small improvement. And that was versus Euro 4 engines, Euro 6 engines are way cleaner.

Interestingly in NYC they actually got rid of their CNG fleet and replaced it with Diesel buses due to reliability issues and expense. They are now looking to go EV and hybrids.

It has sense been found the CNG has no benefits when you take into account leaking gas from pipes etc.:

https://www.transportenvironment.org/press/natural-gas-vehicles-expensive-ineffective-way-cut-car-and-truck-emissions-%E2%80%93-not-%E2%80%98bridge-fuel%E2%80%99

They are basically a dead end technology.

KCross wrote: »

Is a bus a good candidate for hybrid tech? A lot of stop/start etc. Does that favour hybrid?
Is a hybrid bus similar in nature to a hybrid car? What size battery do they have?

Fantastic candidate. Hybrid is ideally suited to stop and go traffic, so thus perfect for what city buses do (intercity type coaches is a different story).

It also helps with a major issue that modern Euro 6 engines have, that they are underpowered and thus slow to accelerate from a stop, a complaint you will hear often from bus drivers. The electric motor can give them nice acceleration off the stops.

They use more or less the same technology as Hybrid cars, either parallel or series hybrid.

The above mentioned B5LH has a 1.2 kWh battery, with 120 kw motor in parallel.
The Diesel engine cuts off completely when it stops and it can "quickly" accelerate back up to 20kph before the Diesel engine kicks back in.

They have found an average of 35% fuel savings from these hybrids over traditional Euro 6.

BTW the above spec has been around since 2013, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was upgraded again before DB gets these new buses.

KCross wrote: »

Is there a reason why a single decker BEV would work but a double decker wouldn't? Is there some technical gotcha there?

Yup, you can easily put the batteries on the roof of a single decker. You can't put them on the roof of a double decker, as it would make it too high (bridges, etc.) and too top heavy.

Putting them on the roof of a single decker is easy and requires minimum engineering change over traditional ICE single decker.

BYD just jammed their batteries in the back of the lower deck of the bus, easy to do, but you lose valuable passenger space. Won't fly in the real world beyond prototypes.

You can't put the batteries in the floor, as city buses need to be able to step down to allow wheelchairs on.

Ideally you could put the batteries under the seats, but that will be expensive and hard to do.

Another option is probably batteries in the ceiling of the lower deck, but that is going to require major engineering changes and very high density batteries not to cut off too much head space.

As you can see not a straight forward nut to crack.

One of the biggest issues is imply that not many countries use double deckers. Uk, Ireland, Berlin, Hong Kong are the main users. Most other countries use single deckers, so hard to get companies to invest in new tech for double deckers.

bk

BTW just came across an interest article and graph that very clearly shows why it made the most sense for the NTA to focus on replacing the old Euro 3 and 4 buses with Euro 6 and why hybrid wasn't a priority:

https://villagemagazine.ie/index.php/2015/09/bus-ting-myths/

Engine | CO | NOX | PM
Euro 3 | 2.1 | 5.0 | 0.10
Euro 4 | 1.5 | 3.5 | 0.02
Euro 6 | 1.5 | 0.4 | 0.01

As you can see, massive reductions in NOX and PM's, a ten fold reduction.

Hybrid will cut those figures by about another 30% off the Euro 6, but that has relatively small impact compared to replacing a Euro 3/4 with a Euro 6

Getting rid of all those old Euro 3/4's as quick as possible was the smart move.

n97 mini

Hopefully with the new NTA branded buses the obsession with running double deckers on even the quietest routes will vanish and be replaced with single decker BEVs.

josip

When they install batteries in a bus, what kind of range are they trying to achieve? All day, long enough for one run of a route or a return trip?

I can understand the space issue if they wanted to keep them going all day, but if they had a charging point at one/both ends of a route, then wouldn't they only need enough battery capacity for 70/35 kms?
Also the smaller battery capacity would mean that the charge time needed would be quite short and fit in with driver rest periods.
eg. the 46A route from Dun Laoghaire to the Phoenix Park is around 17km.
A return on that seems very doable.
The 16 from Ballinteer to the airport is no more than 25km.

Surely that amount of batteries can fit in the existing engine space ?

bk

n97 mini wrote: »

Hopefully with the new NTA branded buses the obsession with running double deckers on even the quietest routes will vanish and be replaced with single decker BEVs.

Possible, but unlikely. DB is getting two single deckers this year, but Diesel, buying them themselves, not an NTA order.

DB previously operated single deckers and it was largely a disaster. Sure, they are lots of times during the day when the bus is quiet. But at peak times even those quiet routes end up at crush levels and end up leaving people behind at bus stops, which is never good as it tends to drive people towards getting a car instead if the bus isn't reliable.

So instead the fleet is built towards the max peak capacity.

DB drivers are actually calling for even bigger, higher capacity double deckers, called tri-axles, which can carry 120 passengers, versus the typical 90 passengers of the dual axle Double Decker.

NTA seem to agree with DB, as they have now started replacing the single decker buses in the Cork City service with double deckers too, much to the relief of people in Cork. It has lead to a much needed capacity increase.

bk

josip wrote: »

When they install batteries in a bus, what kind of range are they trying to achieve? All day, long enough for one run of a route or a return trip?

I can understand the space issue if they wanted to keep them going all day, but if they had a charging point at one/both ends of a route, then wouldn't they only need enough battery capacity for 70/35 kms?
Also the smaller battery capacity would mean that the charge time needed would be quite short and fit in with driver rest periods.
eg. the 46A route from Dun Laoghaire to the Phoenix Park is around 17km.
A return on that seems very doable.
The 16 from Ballinteer to the airport is no more than 25km.

Surely that amount of batteries can fit in the existing engine space ?

Buses are big, heavy and carry up to 120 people! They require massive amounts of power to move.

They are fuelled overnight and expected to run all day on one tank of fuel.

When they reach the end of their route, they normally turn around and do it again. There is no time or infrastructure there to recharge and anyway it would likely take at least an hour with even a high speed charging.

Roughly half the fleet does only operate during the morning and evening peak, so they could charge in between those times at the depot. But you would still be looking at lots of batteries for even 4 hours running.

Again it is more about the weight of the bus + passengers then just the distance they travel.

KCross

en-route charging needs to be part of the solution then?
i.e. multiple quick automated topups at the bus stops

josip

bk wrote: »

Buses are big, heavy and carry up to 120 people! They require massive amounts of power to move.

I thought the current fleet was mainly dual axle 90 PAX?

bk wrote: »

They are fuelled overnight and expected to run all day on one tank of fuel.

Is that not simply due to convention with diesel buses?
There's no reason things have to be done the same with a BEV fleet.

bk wrote: »

When they reach the end of their route, they normally turn around and do it again.

Google must have been very lucky to catch all these buses as they were turning around (and these are the only termini I checked)
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.2718083,-6.2483462,3a,75y,82.28h,90.7t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1semGFSUrysDlytvx7twNO3g!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.2952782,-6.1361969,3a,75y,69.89h,91.83t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sMT44ZAXptS625JsWkfKBcA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
https://www.google.ie/maps/dir/Phoenix+Park,+Dublin+8/Dublin+Airport,+Dublin/@53.2463714,-6.1285256,3a,75y,304.42h,87.39t/data=!3m7!1e1!3m5!1shu4UecX0a1o-KQ-CLn0aeQ!2e0!6s%2F%2Fgeo1.ggpht.com%2Fcbk%3Fpanoid%3Dhu4UecX0a1o-KQ-CLn0aeQ%26output%3Dthumbnail%26cb_client%3Dmaps_sv.tactile.gps%26thumb%3D2%26w%3D203%26h%3D100%26yaw%3D91.28378%26pitch%3D0%26thumbfov%3D100!7i13312!8i6656!4m17!4m16!1m5!1m1!1s0x48670da9f174517b:0xa126d82d9add596b!2m2!1d-6.3298133!2d53.3558823!1m5!1m1!1s0x486711be6993192f:0x55121bb5b725f355!2m2!1d-6.2499098!2d53.4264481!2m2!1b1!2b1!3e0

bk wrote: »

There is no time or infrastructure there to recharge and anyway it would likely take at least an hour with even a high speed charging.

If we were to use the infrastructure logic, then BEV buses would never be introduced anywhere, since the infrastructure also doesn't exist in the garages.
Does anyone know how long would be needed to top up a bus with a range of 40km? There's definitely a not insignificant amount of time as can be seen from the photos above.

bk wrote: »

Roughly half the fleet does only operate during the morning and evening peak, so they could charge in between those times at the depot. But you would still be looking at lots of batteries for even 4 hours running.

Peak only buses would be 1 run of a route in both directions?
Including to and from depot distance what would be <50km for most of the routes?
Does any BEV expert here know/estimate what battery pack would be needed for a 90PAX bus for that ?

bk wrote: »

Again it is more about the weight of the bus + passengers then just the distance they travel.

Not disagreeing with you on this and I'm not suggesting that Leaf/Zoe/Ioniq values and calculations are appropriate.

But a lot of the BEV bus discussion seems to list why BEV buses wouldn't work in the current environment instead of looking at what would be possible with a partial BEV fleet.

I accept the point made in the other thread that replacing older buses with Euro 6 will be more beneficial, but if Euro 6 is so good, why could I see the exhaust smoke coming out of the 151 D I was stuck behind yesterday?
Also there are other valuable, not monetary advantages from a BEV fleet, primarily a much quieter city, especially the centre.

DublinDilbert

bk wrote: »

Buses are big, heavy and carry up to 120 people! They require massive amounts of power to move.

I wouldn't say that at all, especially when it comes to electric motors and batteries. The average speed of a city bus is approximately 15mph.

For example a Mitisubishi outlander weighs the best part of 2000Kg, but when in the city it uses little to nothing driving around at 20mph.

Delfi developed a number of hybrid bus prototypes for cities in Germany about 15 years ago. They were powered by 2 of the motors similar to what is in a tesla and a VW golf diesel engine.

With the advances in battery technology, i can't see why it can't effectively be a plugin hybrid, with a small engine for backup when the battery level drops down.

The engine only needs to be able to meet the average power needs of a bus running at 15-20mph.

josip

To answer some of my own questions using this article
http://www.byd.com/news/news-325.html

A 180 mile range bus costs TFL £350,000.
180 mile is enough for a full day.
Has a 345 KwH battery and takes 4 hours to fully charge.
Being able to use night rate electricity is mentioned and presumably important in the business case.
And only 81PAX

Or that might be 5 buses for £350,000?
£350,000 would be an awful lot for one bus

DublinDilbert

If you factor in downtime and maintenance there must be significant savings there too.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

Possible, but unlikely. DB is getting two single deckers this year, but Diesel, buying them themselves, not an NTA order.

DB previously operated single deckers and it was largely a disaster. Sure, they are lots of times during the day when the bus is quiet. But at peak times even those quiet routes end up at crush levels and end up leaving people behind at bus stops, which is never good as it tends to drive people towards getting a car instead if the bus isn't reliable.

So instead the fleet is built towards the max peak capacity.

DB drivers are actually calling for even bigger, higher capacity double deckers, called tri-axles, which can carry 120 passengers, versus the typical 90 passengers of the dual axle Double Decker.

NTA seem to agree with DB, as they have now started replacing the single decker buses in the Cork City service with double deckers too, much to the relief of people in Cork. It has lead to a much needed capacity increase.

239 never has more than 5 people on it. It goes up boreens between Lucan and Blanch. Totally unsuitable for a double decker.

bk

KCross wrote: »

en-route charging needs to be part of the solution then?
i.e. multiple quick automated topups at the bus stops

Lots of expensive on-street infrastructure, with loads of moaning between DB, BE, NTA, DCC, etc.

Just isn't going to happen. Anyway DB's biggest problem is it's horrible dwell time. They want to cut that significantly, not increase it for charging! Try BRT's in mainland Europe, they spend no more then 30 seconds at even the busiest stop, not enough time for any significant charging.

The reality is priority number one is reliability. If buses aren't reliable then people switch to cars and that ends up much more polluting then even a Diesel bus.

As a result, they are all highly conservative. Until the technology has been proven on a couple hundred buses in London for a few years, then it isn't going to happen here.

We just follow Londons lead, but about 5 years later. Hybrid buses have been proven in London, so now we will follow them with those.

Don't get me wrong, we will go fully BEV some day. But it will be when you can easily fit enough high density batteries easily into the bus for a full days running.

josip wrote: »

I thought the current fleet was mainly dual axle 90 PAX?

You are right, still doesn't change anything, still big and heavy.

josip wrote: »

Is that not simply due to convention with diesel buses?
There's no reason things have to be done the same with a BEV fleet.

More to do with trying to get the maximum utilisation out of a bus.

josip wrote: »

Google must have been very lucky to catch all these buses as they were turning around (and these are the only termini I checked)

Sure, some buses do wait at termini, before starting their run. But long enough for a full recharge? And many don't wait at all and are quickly turned around.

And again you have the issue of lots of expensive on-street, high voltage infrastructure. Unfortunately just isn't going to work in Dublins highly conservative companies.

josip wrote: »

If we were to use the infrastructure logic, then BEV buses would never be introduced anywhere, since the infrastructure also doesn't exist in the garages.
Does anyone know how long would be needed to top up a bus with a range of 40km? There's definitely a not insignificant amount of time as can be seen from the photos above.

Depots often do have the infrastructure and it can be easily added to them. On the street, where you have to get planning permission for high voltage gear from DCC, An Board Pleana, H&S and locals protesting the whole time, not realistic.

Single decker battery buses are working out as they can carry enough battery for a full days running and charge overnight in the depot.

josip wrote: »

Peak only buses would be 1 run of a route in both directions?
Including to and from depot distance what would be <50km for most of the routes?
Does any BEV expert here know/estimate what battery pack would be needed for a 90PAX bus for that ?

They will usually do more then one run during peak. You really aren't being realistic about how buses run.

Yes they queue up at the termini in the morning and waiting for their scheduled departure time. But once they start, they do multiple runs for at least 4 hours without stopping for more then 5 minutes. They then will either return to the depot or have a 15 minute break, before starting the next run.

josip wrote: »

But a lot of the BEV bus discussion seems to list why BEV buses wouldn't work in the current environment instead of looking at what would be possible with a partial BEV fleet.

Don't get me wrong I know some day that all buses will go BEV and I look forward to that day.

But I'm also trying to give people an insight to the day to day reality of running a bus service and why BEV's aren't well suited to it just yet.

It is great that the NTA replaced the Euro 3/4's with Euro 6. It is great news that they will likely turn to hybrids next and hopefully they will eventually turn to full BEV's.

But realistically it will take battery density to increase and prices to fall and buses designed from the ground up as BEV's to achieve this.

DB definitely won't be leading they way on this. Once you see London Bus and Hong Kong get lots of BEV's then you will know it is ready for here too.

n97 mini

josip wrote: »

Does anyone know how long would be needed to top up a bus with a range of 40km? There's definitely a not insignificant amount of time as can be seen from the photos above.

BYD's London bus: 300km range and 1.5 hours to charge.
http://bydeurope.com/downloads/eubs_specification/BYD_10_2_Meters_Electric_bus.pdf

Proterra's FC has a shorter range (up to 100km) and can charge in 13 minutes or less from an overhead charger which would be installed at a depot/terminus.
https://www.proterra.com/performance/range/

bk

josip wrote: »

Or that might be 5 buses for £350,000?
£350,000 would be an awful lot for one bus

That is actually on the very cheap side! DB/NTA pays about 400k for their Diesel buses.

Buses are expensive.

Which also shows why they are conservative about buying new tech. Reliability is vitally important when the bus costs this sort of money and is expected to operate 16 hours a day for about 14 years!

BTW interesting to note that the first hybrid bus DB bought caught fire and burned to the ground!

So you can understand why they are slow to take up unproven tech.

Don't get me wrong, it will eventually happen, but it clearly isn't there yet for Double Deckers.

grogi

n97 mini wrote: »

BYD's London bus: 300km range and 1.5 hours to charge.
http://bydeurope.com/downloads/eubs_specification/BYD_10_2_Meters_Electric_bus.pdf

That's not too shabby. How much distance a statistical city bus travel in a day?

Not much I would say, they probably do maximally 20km every hour. 20*14h = 280km per day. In such case the long charging time is not a stopper...

n97 mini

grogi wrote: »

That's not too shabby. How much distance a statistical city bus travel in a day?

Not much I would say, they probably do maximally 20km every hour. 20*14h = 280km per day. In such case the long charging time is not a stopper...

I think they were designed to be able to go a full day on a single charge.

josip

n97 mini wrote: »

BYD's London bus: 300km range and 1.5 hours to charge.
http://bydeurope.com/downloads/eubs_specification/BYD_10_2_Meters_Electric_bus.pdf

Proterra's FC has a shorter range (up to 100km) and can charge in 13 minutes or less from an overhead charger which would be installed at a depot/terminus.
https://www.proterra.com/performance/range/

Interesting.
The BYD press release I posted earlier is for the same bus but is 14 months later than this PDF and now says 345 kWh and 4 hours charge time.

n97 mini

Sorry, didn't see your link. 4 hours for a day's working is still very manageable.

zilog_jones

bk wrote: »

Just isn't going to happen. Anyway DB's biggest problem is it's horrible dwell time. They want to cut that significantly, not increase it for charging!

I don't suppose you know why the Leap card scanners they have on buses are so glacially slow? It does not make sense to me at all when every other contactless smartcard payment system I've used takes a split second to work. If they want to sort out dwell times, they need to get rid of onboard cash payments and fix the card-based stuff.

bk

zilog_jones wrote: »

I don't suppose you know why the Leap card scanners they have on buses are so glacially slow? It does not make sense to me at all when every other contactless smartcard payment system I've used takes a split second to work. If they want to sort out dwell times, they need to get rid of onboard cash payments and fix the card-based stuff.

I do, the ticket machines that the card readers are connected to are absolutely ancient, TGX150, has a 386 CPU and like a WHOLE 1MB of RAM and ROM!! First introduced in 1999!

A cheap smart phone that you could buy for €40 today would be roughly 10,000 times more powerful. They were already WAY out of date when they were first introduced more then 10 years ago.

I believe it is these ticket machines that are actually slowing the card readers WAY down, as the ticket machines have to calculate the fare and process it, etc.

I'd hate to be the programmers who works on those machines, horribly slow.

They were trialling new, modern, touch screen ticket machines 3 years ago, but nothing seems to come of it unfortunately.

This new BusConnects plan includes some of the following:
- Eliminate cash fares
- Move to either flat fare or tag-on/tag-off to eliminate the interaction with the driver
- Introduce contactless debit/credit card payments and mobile payments (Apple pay, etc.).

They don't specifically say it, but I also suspect the above changes will require new ticket machines which would hopefully be WAY faster.

When I say DB are conservative, this is a perfect example!

grogi

bk wrote: »

I do, the ticket machines that the card readers are connected to are absolutely ancient, TGX150, has a 386 CPU and like a WHOLE 1MB of RAM and ROM!!

A cheap smart phone that you could buy for €40 today would be roughly 10,000 times more powerful. They were already WAY out of date when they were first introduced more then 10 years ago.

I believe it is these ticket machines that are actually slowing the card readers WAY down, as the ticket machines have to calculate the fare and process it, etc.

Don't exaggerate - 386 is still thousands times faster than the computers that brought Apollo to the moon.

I'd hate to be the programmers who works on those machines, horribly slow.

I vividly remember writing code on AT. It wasn't horrible at all. And today nobody is writing code on 386 either.

bk

grogi wrote: »

Don't exaggerate - 386 is still thousands times faster than the computers that brought Apollo to the moon.

Of course it is, the issue is more the 1MB of RAM and ROM.

And lets not get into the silly Apollo thing! NASA has a budget that is measured as a percentage of US GDP, DB has nothing like those sort of resources (nor do their contractors).

grogi wrote: »

I vividly remember writing code on AT. It wasn't horrible at all. And today nobody is writing code on 386 either.

I would hope not, obviously C or similar.

The point is that it is known to be a serious issue and there have been repeated issues with the machine as new features have been rolled out over the years.

It was originally only designed to handle cash fares and it worked reasonably well for that. But now all the following features have been added.

- 15 or so different cash fares
- 15 or so different leap card fares
- lots of different types of monthly/annual tickets.
- handling automated tag-on on the right hand validators.
- Work out daily and weekly capping and the mode transfer capping
- Get the buses location from GPS
- Transmit the buses location to control for RTPI
- Handle the driver log in, destination screens
- Handle the next stop screen
- Store a big list of lost or stolen leap cards
- Handle leap card auto-topup
- Store every transaction including leap card top-ups to be processed when return to depot.

In particular the last three take up significant space in the RAM and ROM, which is where many of the issues come in.

Watch what happens when you place your leap card on the drivers ticket machine validator. S/he has to wait while the screen switches from the cash fare screen to the leap card screen, VERY slow.

And now they are looking to add support for contactless cards and mobile payments on top of all that!

Basically the machines where never designed to handle all that and are creaking under the strain.

josip

Is it NTA or Dublin Bus who would have to fund replacement hardware?

bk

josip wrote: »

Is it NTA or Dublin Bus who would have to fund replacement hardware?

Very good question, I don't know.

DB bought the original machines, but I suspect that the NTA will have to buy any new machines as they are now running the Leap project and will want the same machines to be used across all operators (specially when they tender out the 10% of DB routes as required by the EU).

grogi

bk wrote: »

Of course it is, the issue is more the 1MB of RAM and ROM.

- Store a big list of lost or stolen leap cards
- Handle leap card auto-topup
- Store every transaction including leap card top-ups to be processed when return to depot.

In particular the last three take up significant space in the RAM and ROM, which is where many of the issues come in.

Yes, if they do something like that then it is inadequate.

KCross

bk wrote: »

Realistically I'd expect it to be Hybrid Diesel, similar to what has become the norm for all new buses in London.

Full BEV double deckers just aren't there yet. Only a handful were built by BYD and trialled in London but weren't a success I believe.


Hopefully in time, BEV double deckers will be perfected and introduced.

@bk, might be happening quicker than you think for double decker BEV bus.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/more-fully-electric-buses-to-run-in-london-in-drive-to-clean-up-air-a3467256.html

Take a look at the video in the middle of that article.

180miles on a full charge, double decker and it covers their requirements for the day.

bk

KCross wrote: »

@bk, might be happening quicker than you think for double decker BEV bus.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/more-fully-electric-buses-to-run-in-london-in-drive-to-clean-up-air-a3467256.html

Take a look at the video in the middle of that article.

180miles on a full charge, double decker and it covers their requirements for the day.

They haven't ordered any new EV Double Deckers beyond the trial buses they already received.

They are however ordering 300 single decker EV's.

Basically it looks like for single deckers it is well proven technology that is ready for prime time.

For double deckers still very much trialling and under development. Of course it will happen eventually, but for now it is just lots of PR about the double deckers but little in the way of firm orders.

KCross

bk wrote: »

They haven't ordered any new EV Double Deckers beyond the trial buses they already received.

They are however ordering 300 single decker EV's.

Basically it looks like for single deckers it is well proven technology that is ready for prime time.

For double deckers still very much trialling and under development. Of course it will happen eventually, but for now it is just lots of PR about the double deckers but little in the way of firm orders.

Are you sure?
The article reads as "more EV buses" and new routes. That doesn't sound like a trial that happened last year.

ted1

KCross wrote: »

en-route charging needs to be part of the solution then?
i.e. multiple quick automated topups at the bus stops

Or just use the overhead cables from the LUAS, they could add more to cover the bus lanes

bk

KCross wrote: »

Are you sure?
The article reads as "more EV buses" and new routes. That doesn't sound like a trial that happened last year.

Yes, I'm afraid so, the new routes mentioned are all, low capacity/demand single decker routes.

The plan for central London is that by 2020, all 300 single deckers will be full EV and the remaining 3,000 Double deckers Hybrid Diesel.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2015/july/more-than-50-all-electric-buses-to-enter-service-in-london

Note TFL is Transport For London, the regulator who operates transport in London.

By 2020, as part of the Ultra Low Emission Zone, TfL is committed to ensuring all 300 single decker buses operating in central London are zero emission (e.g. electric or hydrogen), and all 3,000 double deck buses are hybrid.

Here is the order for more single deckers for BYD/ADL Enviro200 EV's:

http://www.transportengineer.org.uk/transport-engineer-news/byd-adl-wins-36-bus-order-from-ratp-dev-london/156470/

This is what they ordered. They haven't ordered any new double decker EV's yet, beyond the trial ones. Trust me BYD would be shouting about it all over the press if they had.

To be honest, I'd expect to see full EV double deckers on the streets of Hong Kong (given that BYD is Chinese) long before they hit London (and even longer for Dublin).

At the moment they are still just PR. From 2020 we might start to see them starting to seriously look at Decker EV's, but still quiet away off and even further for Ireland.

ted1 wrote: »

Or just use the overhead cables from the LUAS, they could add more to cover the bus lanes

You could do that, hybrid trolley buses with batteries that charge when in the city center and then switch to battery exist.

However I think there is zero chance of that happening.

The NTA/Luas/Transdev/government don't want DB/CIE/Unions anywhere near Luas. To much political stuff involved there. That was what the Luas strikes were about a few months ago. It just won't happen, trust me.

Also I don't think DB would be interested anyway. Reliability is the most important priority for them. They will only accept EV buses when they can operate with the same level of flexibility and reliability as Diesel. And that means running a full 12 hours out of a depot on batteries.

You could see the new three BRT routes using overhead wires, but I doubt it as it would massively increase the cost of the project. Instead I say it will look like the new BRT route coming to Belfast next year. They are going to use really nice Vanhool Hybrid Diesel buses.

Though being Single deckers, they do seem to be a perfect candidate for full EV (lots of batteries on the roof).

bk

BTW I forgot to mention that I've heard a rumour from a well informed poster on another bus oriented forum, that the NTA might be looking at Biogas buses!

I'd be very surprised at this, we rarely diverge from what they do in the UK.

Maybe just a box tick trial of them.

I'm not sure what the pros and cons of Biogas buses are, I most read up on them.

n97 mini

bk wrote: »

I'd be very surprised at this, we rarely diverge from what they do in the UK.

We don't diverge from diesel you mean. UK is far more progressive than us.

BoatMad

n97 mini wrote: »

We don't diverge from diesel you mean. UK is far more progressive than us.

I dont think that assertion withstands inspection.

Money as always tends to be the decider

bk

Turns out VanHool also make a Hybrid-Biogas version of the same Hybrid-Diesel BRT bus coming to Belfast and they are in use in Bergen, Norway. So maybe they are thinking of these buses for the new BRT route.

Also it seems Biogas Double Deckers exist in the UK already and don't seem to be too overpriced (about the same cost per unit as a DB bus):
https://bioenergyinternational.com/biogas/nottingham-city-transport-unveils-worlds-largest-biogas-double-decker-fleet

Reading up a little about Biogas buses, seems their well to wheel CO2 numbers are superb, some of the lowest around. Unfortunately their NOX levels are the same as a Euro 6 Diesel and they also produce PM's, though less then a Diesel.

So mixed news there. I'd like to see the CO, NOX and PM numbers of Biogas versus Hybrid Diesel and full EV *

* Though realistically not ready for Double Deckers.