Advertisement
If you have a new account but can't post, please email Niamh on [email protected] for help to verify your email address. Thanks :)
New AMA with a US police officer (he's back!). You can ask your questions here

Registration query

  • 29-05-2017 1:16pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 22 8 ball pool


    I was interested in buying a replica car,the car is in Belgium and is an American import,it's registered as a 1966 car but was built in 2016.
    What my query is,if I bring it into Ireland will revenue treat it as a classic car or will they treat it as a modern car?, obviously this will make a big difference as to how much it will cost to clear the car and to run it,has anyone any experience of this?
    It's a 7 litre V8 with 800 Kms!


Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭ Silvera


    I was interested in buying a replica car,the car is in Belgium and is an American import,it's registered as a 1966 car but was built in 2016.
    What my query is,if I bring it into Ireland will revenue treat it as a classic car or will they treat it as a modern car?, obviously this will make a big difference as to how much it will cost to clear the car and to run it,has anyone any experience of this?
    It's a 7 litre V8 with 800 Kms!

    I believe it will be based on the year of first registration.
    Many replicas are registered on ZV or older 'Year' (i.e. over 30 years old) plates.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭ Type 17


    Also be aware that if an imported car has very low km's (can't remember details, but 800km probably is lower than the threshold), Revenue will treat it as a new car, which would not suit you at all...


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 8 ball pool


    Yeah, the threshold is less than 6 months old and/or less than 6000kms,I will be hit for vat on a new car,what I'm really after is classic rates for vrt,road tax and insurance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,195 ✭✭✭ Redrocket


    Does it have a mileage counter that loops around to zero after 100,000kms? :P

    The "registered as a 1966 car but was built in 2016" is a bit confusing, could you explain more details, like what the car is at least?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭ Type 17


    ...it's registered as a 1966 car but was built in 2016.

    "Date of first registration" is the key in how it will be categorised in Ireland - do the Belgian documents state that the car was first registered in 1966 or 2016, and if there is any mention of 2016 on the documents, what is it? (change of use, change of tax class, change of body type, etc).

    Example of the importance of Date of First registration: I remember that MDL (former VW distributors) have a 70's Beetle in their collection, which had never been registered, and they had to register it in 1992, because EU rules for new (ie: unregistered) cars meant that they would not have been able to register it from 1/1/93 onwards, as it did not have a catalytic converter.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 22 8 ball pool


    Car is a gt40,plenty of these advertised online as replica cars registered and advertised as 1960's cars which were built more recently,I think it's got to do with the vin number that the chassis is issued,
    I'm not sure what the documents in Belgium say to be honest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,701 ✭✭✭ Type 17


    Car is a gt40,plenty of these advertised online as replica cars registered and advertised as 1960's cars which were built more recently,I think it's got to do with the vin number that the chassis is issued,
    I'm not sure what the documents in Belgium say to be honest.

    Sounds like the car contains an older chassis and/or enough older parts to use the identity of a 1966 car, but you would want to be totally sure that the Date of First Registration is actually 1966 on the documents before buying/importing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭ hi5


    It's over 6 months old OR 6000 km, either one or the other is fine.
    Like others have said if the reg cert says 1966 first registered and the vin on the cert matches that on the car it then it should be €200 VRT.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 844 H.E. Pennypacker


    I brought in a non-standard build once before and had great difficulty insuring it. I eventually managed to get Third Party, Fire & Theft cover but Comprehensive wasn't possible. VRT is just a question of amount, once they've (eventually) figured out a statistical code but insurance may not be that easy. FWIW, you get fined once you're over the 30 days even if the delay is on their side figuring out a statistical code and that takes as long as it takes.

    Even if you can insure it in Ireland, others may not be able so keep resale and future export implications in mind before you buy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭ Silvera


    I would suggest that you make contact with the Irish kit car club for more information. They surely have plenty of members who've been through this process...and who could also advise you regarding insurance cover.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 21,259 ✭✭✭✭ Esel


    hi5 wrote: »
    It's over 6 months old OR 6000 km, either one or the other is fine.

    No, definitely not fine!

    If the car is under 6 months since first registration OR has less than 6000km done, VAT is payable here. UK VAT can be reclaimed.

    I know the above iss off the point of the OP's query.

    @OP: If the documentation does not provide proof that first registration date is over 30 years ago, cheap motor tax will not apply.

    Not your ornery onager



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,891 ✭✭✭ prinzeugen


    Type 17 wrote: »
    Sounds like the car contains an older chassis and/or enough older parts to use the identity of a 1966 car, but you would want to be totally sure that the Date of First Registration is actually 1966 on the documents before buying/importing.

    That sounds exactly right. The reg stays with the chassis.

    Bus companies do it all the time n the UK. (They stick coach bodies on old double decker chassis and re-reg them in the north to hide the age)

    The car prob has a new body on a 1966 chassis. I would be asking why though..


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,093 ✭✭✭ hi5


    Esel wrote: »
    No, definitely not fine!

    If the car is under 6 months since first registration OR has less than 6000km done, VAT is payable here. UK VAT can be reclaimed.

    I know the above iss off the point of the OP's query.

    @OP: If the documentation does not provide proof that first registration date is over 30 years ago, cheap motor tax will not apply.

    Isn't that what I just said?

    It's over 6 months old OR 6000 km, either one or the other is fine.
    Like others have said if the reg cert says 1966 first registered and the vin on the cert matches that on the car it then it should be €200 VRT.


  • Registered Users Posts: 827 PaulK_CCI


    This is a danger zone because the revenue have their own set of rules with regards to kit cars. 
    If the car has an original (!!) chassis from a specific donor car, be it a Ford GT40 or other period car from 1966 which is clearly documented and defined, then you're all clear as that is what will be used as the bench mark.
    HOWEVER, and that's the big one here, you can't really create a good replica of a GT40 without literally creating a new chassis. This is not a Beetle or a LandRange Rover, where you can just use an existing chassis and put a new body on top so more than likely the chassis will be newly constructed, making this a fullblooded "new" kitcar...
    I think I know which car you are referring to, and the add clearly states that basis of the 1966 registration is based on the fact that 85% of the vehicle is constructed from parts stemming from / or are interchangeable with cars from that period. Laws around kit cars are different in the different European countries and some countries have their own specific rules, or loopholes, as you can call them.
    Unfortunately the revenue will look upon this as a newly constructed car, and will more than likely decline the registration documents, simply based on the fact that you can't prove that this is in fact a fully period, unmodified chassis. 
    In view of the price tag, it's a hell of a lot of VRT to pay if the revenue looks upon it as a kit car.


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 8 ball pool


    I contacted the seller,his email said the car has original papers from 1966 and there is no mention of the manufacture date.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,259 ✭✭✭✭ Esel


    I contacted the seller,his email said the car has original papers from 1966 and there is no mention of the manufacture date.

    AFAIK is all about the chassis. Does the number match the papers? Is it a new chassis with the original plate mounted on it (or the original number stamped on it)?

    I'm sure PaulK_CCI could advise more.

    Not your ornery onager



  • Registered Users Posts: 22 8 ball pool


    It can be done alright,I seen a thread on a gt40 forum,an Irish guy imported a gt40 replica from the us,he registered it as a classic,I seen the zv plates on it,he sold it on again with only 2000 miles on it 2 years ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 827 PaulK_CCI


    The key issue is how the registration documents are drafted. Note if it's on a US Title, you are going to liable for Customs and Excise duties + VAT because the car is from outside the EU union, but that is a different thread :-)
    If it clearly states the car, vehicle, engine size, date of first registration (!!) and chassis number on the registration document, and the chassis number is stamped as per the documentation with this number on the chassis, as opposed to a little plate somewhere on the body, than theoretically Yes, there is nothing that the NCT can bring in to tell you otherwise: a EU registration document claiming the car to be from 1966 and this matches the number on the chassis of the car you are presenting, that really is all the proof you will need. The NCT will however want to see a stamped chassis and would approach a screwed on tag plate with a lot of caution.
    Only if the NCT/REvenu office is having suspicion that the registration documentation shown is not what it claims to be, than they can order an investigation, and once that happens, you may be in trouble, because strictly speaking it's not an original GT40 (there were only 103 made in total and they are all accounted for :-) and the car was in fact built a couple of years ago. Kit cars have a different status in Ireland and if they class your car as a kit-car, normal VRT rules apply... 
    I guess it kind of depends on the person you meet behind the desk of the NCT center! Not sure how long ago this other guy imported it into Ireland, but in the old days, you had to present the car at your local VRT office, and the people behind the desk generally had no clue whatsover. So if you presented the documentation which clearly stated the car is from 1966, then showed them the car and the vin number, they would generally not think twice. They certainly wouldn't know how to spot a genuine car from a replica, so as long as you yourself would never mention the words "replica" or "kit-car", they wouldn't have copped on.
    The NCT people seem to be a bit more on the ball (in the negative sense for the people importing) and if you are unlucky in that you get someone who knows about the GT40's, he will immediately realize that the car is in fact a recreation and could never really have a 1966 registration... The reason it got the current 66 registration is because due to some loopholes in legislation in other countries, where it is possible to give a car a certain year status based on the fact that the car is constructed for more than a certain percentage with parts that stem or would have been available in that period. As you can imagine that is a "strechted concept":-). That loophole does not exist in Ireland, but if it has proper paperwork from another country, some countries just take that for granted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,027 ✭✭✭ Silvera


    Great post PaulK CCI, very interesting!

    As a matter of interest, you say "Kit cars have a different status in Ireland and if they class your car as a kit-car, normal VRT rules apply... " -

    So even if a kit-car is built on a genuine, say 1965 chassis, normal vrt will apply (not vintage €200 vrt)?

    ...or is it - as you mentioned - only if you mention the words 'kit car' at the time of the inspection?


  • Registered Users Posts: 827 PaulK_CCI


    You sort of answered your own question here :-) 

    "So even if a kit-car is built on a genuine, say 1965 chassis,..."
    A genuine 65 chassis is THE determining factor, so if the chassis is a genuine 65 chassis, then you're 100% in the clear no matter what sort of body is sitting on top! 

    In the case of a GT40, it sure as hell will NOT be a genuine chassis so it is made up from new or consists of components... and that is where the grey area starts. For the Irish revenue, the chassis could (!!! note the caution here, could, depending on the shrewdness of the NCT staff/people in revenue processing the application!) be deemed "NEW", hence a new car.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 122 ✭✭ sgalvin


    Hi he pennypacker

    Do you mind sharing who you arranged insurance with and a rough price if you wouldn't mind?

    I have a similar predicament myself with a locost type car and whether to base it on a triumph spitfire/scimitar chassis or apply for a new registration.

    I'm not too bothered about tax €120 <80 gco2 vs €56 (chassis >30 years) but if insurance is going to be €100s rather than €150 then my decision is made

    I brought in a non-standard build once before and had great difficulty insuring it. I eventually managed to get Third Party, Fire & Theft cover but Comprehensive wasn't possible. VRT is just a question of amount, once they've (eventually) figured out a statistical code but insurance may not be that easy. FWIW, you get fined once you're over the 30 days even if the delay is on their side figuring out a statistical code and that takes as long as it takes.

    Even if you can insure it in Ireland, others may not be able so keep resale and future export implications in mind before you buy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 844 H.E. Pennypacker


    sgalvin wrote: »
    Hi he pennypacker

    Do you mind sharing who you arranged insurance with and a rough price if you wouldn't mind?

    I have a similar predicament myself with a locost type car and whether to base it on a triumph spitfire/scimitar chassis or apply for a new registration.

    I'm not too bothered about tax €120 <80 gco2 vs €56 (chassis >30 years) but if insurance is going to be €100s rather than €150 then my decision is made

    Hi,

    I've sent you a PM but in case anyone is searching the forum looking for similar answers, I eventually got Axa to agree to Third Party only cover on an existing classic car policy (I thought that I got fire & theft cover but when I thought about it again I remembered that it was only third party.). Cost-wise it was approx €100 annually to add to the policy


  • Registered Users Posts: 22 8 ball pool


    If I bring in a car with an EU registration for 1966 and revenue tell me it's a replica and we want full vrt rates, will it still be registered in Ireland as an 1966 car and It will still be classified as a classic will the benefits of low road tax and no annual nct?,or will I have a 1966 car will full road tax rates and a nct every year?


  • Registered Users Posts: 827 PaulK_CCI


    If the Revenue does not accept that the car is on an original 1966 chassis, it will class it as a kit car and the date of when the car was built will be used as the determining age of the vehicle, which if I recal from your original post was something linke 2013. If that "worst-case" scenario develops, then yes, your car is liable for a massive amount of VRT, it will be dated 2013 so you will need to pay full tax and yearly NCT, etc...

    But as I said, if the car has a valid EU registration document, more than likely you will not have the staff in the NCT centres questioning the setup, but strictly speaking the car does NOT have an original chassis regardless of the paperwork so if they are in a bad mood, or if the person behind the desk is a bit of stickler for the rules, you might find they pass the case on to the revenue for further investigation... So there is a slight risk involved here...


Advertisement