Fines from Italy

hogandrew

Bumping a thread that is a bit old here but just got 2 of these fines, seems to be for using a bus lane, last march in Milan. The fines are for the same offence but a minute apart. I received 2 fines from the hire company of 48 euro each about a year ago. They said I was caught speeding but I'm assuming it was this.

The fine is also not in my name. It has name: my second name and county. It also has the wrong address and eircode (an post really are excellent). The fines add up to 180 so pretty steep. Just wondering if anyone didn't pay up and what happened?

eringobragh

hogandrew wrote: »

Bumping a thread that is a bit old here but just got 2 of these fines, seems to be for using a bus lane, last march in Milan. The fines are for the same offence but a minute apart. I received 2 fines from the hire company of 48 euro each about a year ago. They said I was caught speeding but I'm assuming it was this.

The fine is also not in my name. It has name: my second name and county. It also has the wrong address and eircode (an post really are excellent). The fines add up to 180 so pretty steep. Just wondering if anyone didn't pay up and what happened?

Bin it and move on with your life.......got 6 letters off those snot rags in the DVLA final letter saying they'd lift the car if they detect it in the north :rolleyes:

kathleen37

hogandrew wrote: »

Bumping a thread that is a bit old here but just got 2 of these fines, seems to be for using a bus lane, last march in Milan. The fines are for the same offence but a minute apart. I received 2 fines from the hire company of 48 euro each about a year ago. They said I was caught speeding but I'm assuming it was this.

The fine is also not in my name. It has name: my second name and county. It also has the wrong address and eircode (an post really are excellent). The fines add up to 180 so pretty steep. Just wondering if anyone didn't pay up and what happened?

The two amounts from the hire company were them charging you an admin fee for them to give your information to the police.

biko

Moved out from 7 year old thread

Tropheus

Have a similar problem. Was in Italy last year and the year before. The year before, the hire company contacted me and said there was a €40 charge as they had to provide my details to the police in relation to a traffic offence. A year later, I received a fine from the Italian Police for €90 for driving in a restricted zone in Milan. I just decided to pay it and move on.

Since being in Italy last year, I have been charged €40 on 4 occassions as the police contacted the car hire copmany in relation to offences. I received one of the fines a couple of weeks ago. €90 again and again for driving in a restricted zone. My personal opinion is that this is a scam on tourists. I have no recollection of driving in restricted zones or how I would even identify them. I had my 85 year old father-in-law with me who has a disabled permit. I will try and appeal the fines based on the fact I was accessing disabled parking. However, they don't make the appeal process easy. You have to do it in Italian, however, it's worth a try.

I'm undecided as to whether it's wise ignoring them. As you've seen from the letter, the fine goes up like the M50 toll if you don't pay. You could argue that they won't pursue you for it, but if it gets high enough, they could sell it to a local debt collection agency that could take procedings here in Ireland. That has been known to happen. The other issue is that if you ever return to Italy, outstanding fines could be an issue when hiring a car in the future.

It really leaves a sour taste in the mouth after the holiday. Speeding is one thing, but driving into "restricted zones" that don't appear to be adequately signed for tourists is a pi$$ take.

hogandrew

Tropheus wrote: »

Have a similar problem. Was in Italy last year and the year before. The year before, the hire company contacted me and said there was a €40 charge as they had to provide my details to the police in relation to a traffic offence. A year later, I received a fine from the Italian Police for €90 for driving in a restricted zone in Milan. I just decided to pay it and move on.

Since being in Italy last year, I have been charged €40 on 4 occassions as the police contacted the car hire copmany in relation to offences. I received one of the fines a couple of weeks ago. €90 again and again for driving in a restricted zone. My personal opinion is that this is a scam on tourists. I have no recollection of driving in restricted zones or how I would even identify them. I had my 85 year old father-in-law with me who has a disabled permit. I will try and appeal the fines based on the fact I was accessing disabled parking. However, they don't make the appeal process easy. You have to do it in Italian, however, it's worth a try.

I'm undecided as to whether it's wise ignoring them. As you've seen from the letter, the fine goes up like the M50 toll if you don't pay. You could argue that they won't pursue you for it, but if it gets high enough, they could sell it to a local debt collection agency that could take procedings here in Ireland. That has been known to happen. The other issue is that if you ever return to Italy, outstanding fines could be an issue when hiring a car in the future.

It really leaves a sour taste in the mouth after the holiday. Speeding is one thing, but driving into "restricted zones" that don't appear to be adequately signed for tourists is a pi$$ take.

Ye if it had of been one fine I would be more inclined to pay. It was the fact that I was fined twice for being in a bus lane at 10:34 and again at 10:35 that really annoyed me.

I was hoping that the fact that the fine wasn't actually sent to my name and was sent to my neighbours address that if it came to it I wouldn't have to pay it but as u say, it isn't the easiest thing to appeal. From reading threads online this really does seem to be a widespread scam

Riva10

hogandrew wrote: »

Ye if it had of been one fine I would be more inclined to pay. It was the fact that I was fined twice for being in a bus lane at 10:34 and again at 10:35 that really annoyed me.

I was hoping that the fact that the fine wasn't actually sent to my name and was sent to my neighbours address that if it came to it I wouldn't have to pay it but as u say, it isn't the easiest thing to appeal. From reading threads online this really does seem to be a widespread scam

Treat it with the respect that all scams deserve. Re-seal the envelope , Drop it in a post box and mark "Not known at this address" which is the truth.

Fred Swanson

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oscar2

It's probably a congestion charge known as Area C. You have to have a buy a permit to enter certain areas of Milan. Camera photographs number plate and if plate isn't registered as having a permit then a fine is issued.

There are also ZTL zones in major Italian Cities. Again the registration is photographed and fines sent out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan_Area_C

https://www.italybeyondtheobvious.com/dont-mess-with-ztl-zones

Tropheus

oscar2 wrote: »

It's probably a congestion charge known as Area C. You have to have a buy a permit to enter certain areas of Milan. Camera photographs number plate and if plate isn't registered as having a permit then a fine is issued.

There are also ZTL zones in major Italian Cities. Again the registration is photographed and fines sent out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milan_Area_C

https://www.italybeyondtheobvious.com/dont-mess-with-ztl-zones

Thanks for this. I did a bit of reading up on them and one of the sites says that there is a national exemption for disabled drivers with a valid permit. I geniunely had my father-in-law with us and his badge was in the car (not always displayed while driving as it slid around the dashboard). I will write to them including a copy of his passport, ticket and disabled badge claiming exemption. Hopefully that will kill it. I can use the same letter for any other fines that follow.

It's certainly something to be mindful of in the future now that I know what signs to look for.

kerten

I was aware of permit only areas in cities when I was driving around. I ended up in a street where camera pointing me and border of permit only area ahead. I made a U-turn and moved away.

Still received the 80 euro + admin fee in the post afterwards. I remember reading that they make couple of millions euro every year from tourists falling into this so it is a state sponsored scam on their behalf.

mikeecho

My understanding, from reading all these threads about revieving motoring fines abroad , they only seem to apply to rental cars.

I've yet to receive an automated fine for any of my irish registered vehicles abroad.

(Or a parking ticket, that has been followed up on)

Fred Swanson

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oscar2

In Italy ZTL zones are marked but congestion zones are harder to spot. I almost got caught in Milan except I arrived late Friday evening and was outside the time covered.

Best thing when planning to drive abroad is to do a little research and try to avoid driving into city centes. Park outside centre and use public transport its simpler,cheaper and saves time.

GM228

Fred Swanson wrote: »

The foreign police/councils do not have access to Irish vehicle records.

EU police forces do since last month under the EUs EUCARIS system.

milhous

I got done for speeding in Italy about 4 years ago. I got the fine about 11 months after (I think I researched it at the time and it was within the time limit they have) and my surname had a spelling error. I think it had my license number on it so can't pretend it wasn't me. I didn't pay but should have done in hindsight. I might look into paying this now as It would be terrible arriving in Italy with the wife and kids and getting arrested or some such.

SeamusG97

Got a speeding fine in La Spezia in a hired car 2010 doing 61 in a 50km/h zone ( Big wide road that I'd made a wrong turn into and was driving back out of) that escalated from something small to about €360. I ignored it. Surprised that the hire company didn't bill me any extra as they had clearly passed my details on to the police. Official letter arrived in Italian which I didn't bother to read. Then a further one in English telling me that I had been hit with the mega fine. Been back to Italy many times since and not a bother. I wouldn't pay.

Also I have a lovely yellow plastic bag rainproofed packaged parking ticket with a sticky patch to attach it to the windscreen that I got in 2001 in Bath. It's a work of art. A shame to open it up to see what might have been inside. I await their combined wrath.

M50 is another thing altogether - don't mess with them...

Edit: Parking ticket was where the hotel we were staying at told me to park overnight across the road from their front door. It was a carpark and the fine was £60 administered at 8am - I could see it through the cellophane of the bag. They surely knew an Irish reg car wasn't going to pay a parking fine. I'm not an inconsiderate parker.

SeamusG97

milhous wrote: »

I got done for speeding in Italy about 4 years ago. I got the fine about 11 months after (I think I researched it at the time and it was within the time limit they have) and my surname had a spelling error. I think it had my license number on it so can't pretend it wasn't me. I didn't pay but should have done in hindsight. I might look into paying this now as It would be terrible arriving in Italy with the wife and kids and getting arrested or some such.

Is it the same car? If so I wouldn't be too worried.

mfceiling

I got a letter from Florence police with a fine attached. Went to the bin. 2 years later I got another one....bin again. The last letter came at christmas past to the parents house in the north (where my licence is registered...couldn't be arsed changing to irish licence). I'll probably change to an irish licence to avoid hassle in the future. I was back in Italy after I received the first fine and was able to get a hire car with no issue

Tropheus

I sent off my appeal letter including an explanation that my father-in-law (who has a disabled parking permit) was in the car at the time and I was looking for disabled parking. I included the Ryanair itinerary showing he was in Italy at the time, a copy of his passport and a copy of his parking permit.

I noticed the small print around appeals says that if the appeal fails, you have to pay double the fine! I'll let you know how I get on. However, if the time to get the original fine issued is anything to go by, I don't expect to hear from them for several months.

mfceiling

Tropheus wrote: »

I sent off my appeal letter including an explanation that my father-in-law (who has a disabled parking permit) was in the car at the time and I was looking for disabled parking. I included the Ryanair itinerary showing he was in Italy at the time, a copy of his passport and a copy of his parking permit.

I noticed the small print around appeals says that if the appeal fails, you have to pay double the fine! I'll let you know how I get on. However, if the time to get the original fine issued is anything to go by, I don't expect to hear from them for several months.

I'd be fairly sure that you'll never hear from them again tbh.

Hal1

Joe Duffy them if you do...:o

mdebets

Nearly all countries in Europe have now some sort of restrictionson people driving in larger cities. Best to check here if you are lanning to drive abroad.
It also looks like Ireland is finally to implement the EU Cross Border Enforcement Directive soon (here), so you can't get away with not paying fines in the future.

josip

I got that mathematical doubling of speeding fines from the Australians a few years ago on a rental.
Ignored it and nothing came of it.

On the other side I went to pay a parking fine in Gothenburg 20 years ago for my 96 D 26??? Reg.
Although I went to their office and wanted to pay cash/credit card, the official just could not accept my payment because the system could only accept Swedish format regs 3 letters + 3Nums.
When I suggested that she just enter the first 6 letters/numbers, she looked at me in horror and said no, no. no that wouldn't be right. It had to be the whole number or nothing.
You've got to love the Swedes, something falling outside their rules encyclopaedia causes turmoil.

The next one I got in December froze to the windscreen wiper rubber and since I wasn't driving on the Irish tyres I forgot about it until the customs guy pointed it out to me getting on the ferry,
"You pay that, ja?"
"Ja, ja"

mgbgt1978

So you all know what to do in future after hiring a Car abroad (especially in Italy by the look of things).
Upon return just get on to your Credit Card Company, declare your card lost/stolen and get a new one within 2 days. Your old C/C number will no longer be valid so the Car Hire Companies will not be able to extract an admin fee....they will probably still pass on your details to the local cops but at present there is nothing they can do except send you the odd threatening letter

Fred Swanson

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GM228

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Bullsh1t! Even if you cancel your card, the charge will still find it's way to the new card.

How, when a new card is issued it is not possible for a charge against the old card number.

grogi

GM228 wrote: »

How, when a new card is issued it is not possible for a charge against the old card number.

It is.

Once a merchant has a card authorised with the payment processor, any other card replacing the authorised one can be charged as well. It costs the merchant a bit, but IT IS POSSIBLE.

Fred Swanson

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GM228

grogi wrote: »

It is.

Once a merchant has a card authorised with the payment processor, any other card replacing the authorised one can be charged as well. It costs the merchant a bit, but IT IS POSSIBLE.

Yes but dosn't pre-authorisation only last around max 8 days, after the hold is gone it is not possible to charge.

Fred Swanson

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grogi

GM228 wrote: »

Yes but dosn't pre-authorisation only last around max 8 days, after the hold is gone it is not possible to charge.

There are two things - funds preallocation - which expires typically after 14 days. And card authorisation - which does not expire.
In the second case the bank might refuse to charge the card if there are no funds available, which will never be the case when they have been preallocated.

So one could avoid the charges by completely closing the account.

Impetus

Unless they used registered post which you signed for they can't prove delivery. However if it was a rental car, they will get your name and DOB from a fiche des louers (car renters real time database) and the next time you drive a car in Italy, and you pass a camera (which can include a blue Lambo Garda car in IT) the computer terminal in the car is likely to flag you.

There is so much criminality among police in Europe in general, (not that na Gardai are pristine clean), you need to be careful. All they want is your €€€€€€€. And probably get an AmEx card that covers car rental liabilities for EUR 75'000 in the event of a claim from the rental company - in case they try and take the car off you.

Irish road signage is totally at variance with the rest of Europe/world. The Irish government is negligent in using a non-standard signage system that does not comply with Vienna/Geneva conventions. If you get ticketed driving under an Irish license, in an incorrect manner elsewhere in the EU, where the driving would appear to be lawful in Ireland you could try taking Ireland to the European court. After all on the assumption you passed your test, and know the rules of the road in Ireland. Why should you have to re-learn how to drive because some over paid, over pensioned minister or permanent gov ejit decides to use non-standard road markings in Ireland? While at the same time issuing driving licenses purporting to be 'EU' licenses.

The entire EU/EEA needs a standard signage system - which largely means Ireland needs to get its house in order. Britain and Malta are also not in compliance - there is no lozenge sign to indicate who (ie which roads at a junction) have priority - unlike the rest of Europe.

ironclaw

grogi wrote: »

card authorisation - which does not expire.
In the second case the bank might refuse to charge the card if there are no funds available, which will never be the case when they have been preallocated.

So one could avoid the charges by completely closing the account.

We can tokenise a card today and charge it up until the day the card expires, years from now. If the card is cancelled or overdrawn, we can pursue it with the bank provided we can prove the consumer agreed to said charges (Fairly easy to do)

Fred Swanson

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