installing a pump for a shower, which one?

amorgan

hi guys

i've just bought a house with a standard triton electric shower. the water pressure is fairly awful and i want to get a pump installed and get rid of the triton, so i can have a proper shower. there's only one shower in the house, but if a pump can increase water pressure everywhere, that would be a bonus. there is also a bath separately beside it.

the shower is on the first floor, about a metre from the hot water tank. the water tank is in the attic, the floor above.

am i right in thinking i need a negative pump? would a 2 bar pump suffice, or would more power be preferable? from what i've read, installing it beside the hot water tank is the ideal for best performance. should the pump be only plumbed for the shower or for the whole system?

i've been recommended price points between €150 and €650 depending on who i talk to, but what would you recommend? all advice welcome, thanks!

Sleeper12

amorgan wrote:

i've been recommended price points between €150 and €650 depending on who i talk to, but what would you recommend? all advice welcome, thanks!

Regular house pump would suit you .I'm sure that the 150 you were quoted was for labour only. 3 bar house pump costs around 550 without Installation. Nothing you have posted suggests that you need a negative head.
Best option is to keep the electric shower for when you have no hot water and you want a quick shower. Taking this out and fitting a mixer shower will add possibly 600 or more to the cost of the pump and you will need tiling done afterwards

stiofan85

We had a plumber install a "Walrus TQ400" and I am really happy with it. Had a huge cold water tank put in the attic to feed down to the pump and into a combi. Shower pressure and heat is really good and pump is really quiet (under stairs). Also ran the pumped hot water to kitchen and bathroom sink.

He supplied and installed pump for €590. Looking at the price of the pump I guess he applied some markup to it but he did source it for me. Depending on where you locate it you may not have power available so you'll need an electrician to install a fused spur.

monseiur

Fit a 3 bar Stuart Turner pump, not the cheapest but one of the best. You don't need a negative head one.

M.

antoinolachtnai

You can get a half-inch stuart turner pump now for around 180 euro mark. This is a perfectly good pump from the famous brand if you just want to pump the shower. The plumbing for this is 'not too bad' as the saying goes. However, you do need to get access to the pipes. If you can locate the pipes that run to the shower yourself, then this makes everything easier for the plumber when he comes to quote you and do the job.

You can pump the whole house but I hereby recommend that you do not, unless the pressure is particularly bad. The reason is that when someone gets up in the middle of the night and runs a sink or (heaven help us) flushes a toilet, the pump will run. Then you will be angry that your sleep has been disturbed, and all because you asked a question on the Plumbing and Heating forum of boards.ie.

stiofan85

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You can pump the whole house but I hereby recommend that you do not, unless the pressure is particularly bad. The reason is that when someone gets up in the middle of the night and runs a sink or (heaven help us) flushes a toilet, the pump will run. Then you will be angry that your sleep has been disturbed, and all because you asked a question on the Plumbing and Heating forum of boards.ie.

We only pumped the hot water for this reason. Also as the cold water comes from a tank in the attic we didn't want that being pumped to the kitchen sink for drinking. Just means our kitchen sink has unequal pressure from hot and cold but it's not a problem.

antoinolachtnai

I would be concerned that the thermostatic shower valve wouldn't work very well if you did that, because there will be a big pressure differential between the hot and cold water.

This could result in scalding if the water in the cylinder is too hot and doesn't get mixed or gets mixed unevenly at the shower valve.

If you have mains at all your cold water taps then the pressure differential will be smaller and you will have fewer apparent problems. The risk of scalding remains because the cold water pressure could fall off unexpectedly.

stiofan85

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I would be concerned that the thermostatic shower valve wouldn't work very well if you did that, because there will be a big pressure differential between the hot and cold water.

This could result in scalding if the water in the cylinder is too hot and doesn't get mixed or gets mixed unevenly at the shower valve.

If you have mains at all your cold water taps then the pressure differential will be smaller and you will have fewer apparent problems. The risk of scalding remains because the cold water pressure could fall off unexpectedly.

yes, this is exactly what happened with the shower as I hadn't run a cold from the pump for the shower. The plumber left a feed for the cold off the pump and I ran the cold direct from that to the shower and gave balance afterwards. Until then it was possible to find a balance between hot and cold with the mixer on the bath but it was tricky and not always reliable. Balance is much better now

Sleeper12

stiofan85 wrote:

We only pumped the hot water for this reason. Also as the cold water comes from a tank in the attic we didn't want that being pumped to the kitchen sink for drinking. Just means our kitchen sink has unequal pressure from hot and cold but it's not a problem.

This setup doesn't work for a lot of showers. A lot of showers are designed for equal pressure from hot and cold.
A simpler solution is to pump hot or cold and put the pump on a timer so it it's won't be make noise at night.
Cold water for the kitchen tap won't come from the tank. It always needs to be mains water

stiofan85

Sleeper12 wrote: »

This setup doesn't work for a lot of showers. A lot of showers are designed for equal pressure from hot and cold.
A simpler solution is to pump hot or cold and put the pump on a timer so it it's won't be make noise at night.
Cold water for the kitchen tap won't come from the tank. It always needs to be mains water

We pumped both hot and cold for the shower, but for the rest of the house only the hot. So the toilet doesn't call on the pump, nor does the sink in the bathroom but the shower does. The cold water in kitchen sink is on the mains.

Timer is a good idea depending on your house. Just the two of us and a baby so not a problem but for a bigger household or a noisier pump I could definitely see this as a good idea.

amorgan

thanks for all the thoughts and input on this. on another recommendation i saw on this forum, i dropped in to nj power and they have told me that if the shower head is below 1.5m off the floor (it will have to be!), then i should be looking at a negative pump as the pump won't engage for some reason.

i found the walrus pump for €329, this sounds quite reasonable for a 3 bar pump. i have a handyman who can fit it for me, he sorts me out with a fairly good rate (and doesn't mark up parts costs much at all).

i might well look at the timer idea, that sounds smart. although, the only other water pressure i'd really be fussed about increasing is the kitchen sink, which wouldn't be affected at all

antoinolachtnai

I don't see what difference the height of the shower head above the floor makes to be quite honest. What matters is the distance from the shower head to the roof tank.

Purchasing pumps is the builder's equivalent of buying jeans or ladies clothes. The brand really matters. Penney's is not the same Christian Dior, even if they're both a black dress.

This is because everyone hates fixing pumps. Pumps do break in various ways. When the man comes to look at your broken pump and sees that it is a non-famous brand, he will ask you where you got it from and you will feel like a young woman who worn a dress from Primark to the oscars must feel when the same question is asked. You will be strongly encouraged to buy a new pump. You will be embarrassed in front of your partner and children.

The famous brand in pumps is Stuart Turner. There are other brands for sure that are almost as well known. I do not know much about the Walrus pump. No doubt it is an excellent product, but I don't know if anyone will want to fix it if it breaks. There are plenty people who will have spares for and will fix ST pumps. And they do not break down much.

stiofan85

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The famous brand in pumps is Stuart Turner. There are other brands for sure that are almost as well known. I do not know much about the Walrus pump. No doubt it is an excellent product, but I don't know if anyone will want to fix it if it breaks. There are plenty people who will have spares for and will fix ST pumps. And they do not break down much.

I had read the same re: Stuart Turner when the plumber named the pump. I found the thread below at the time and it persuaded me it would be a good choice. So far so good, but I am neither a plumber nor someone who's owned a pump for very long to find out. All I can say is it is quiet and works.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056263948

Sleeper12

antoinolachtnai wrote:

The famous brand in pumps is Stuart Turner. There are other brands for sure that are almost as well known. I do not know much about the Walrus pump. No doubt it is an excellent product, but I don't know if anyone will want to fix it if it breaks. There are plenty people who will have spares for and will fix ST pumps. And they do not break down much.

I'm not sure if they won't want to repair it. I think it's more likely not economical to repair cheaper pumps. Why spend 150 repairing a 6 year old pump that 300 to replace.

If you've spent 550 on a Stuart Turner and it breaks after its 5 year warranty then its worth repairing.
Some pumps offer a 1 year warranty and others 5 years.

OP I'd be wary of a handy installing a pump. It may need a flange for the hot & he must take a spur from the immersion and not a socket. He needs to put in rcd protection in the immersion do not have it. If it's not installed correctly it voids the warranty.

K.Flyer

amorgan wrote: »

thanks for all the thoughts and input on this. on another recommendation i saw on this forum, i dropped in to nj power and they have told me that if the shower head is below 1.5m off the floor (it will have to be!), then i should be looking at a negative pump as the pump won't engage for some reason.

Nonsense, if your attic tank is anywhere more than a foot or so above your shower head a positive head is fine. I say that as an installer and having one in my own house.

amorgan wrote: »

i found the walrus pump for €329, this sounds quite reasonable for a 3 bar pump. i have a handyman who can fit it for me, he sorts me out with a fairly good rate (and doesn't mark up parts costs much at all).

The Walrus pump, (which is a re-badged Kikawa pump ) is only a single pipe pump. Whereas the Stuart Turners that you looked at are Two pipe (hot and cold) pumps, they are two very different pumps.
The cheap 180 euro Stuart Turner pump is considered a "disposable" pump and Stuart Turner do not provide any spare parts for them.
Also keep in mind that under their warranty conditions this unit must be connected to a Single shower or a bath / shower mixer only. Using it to pressurise more than one item, say a complete bathroom, voids the warranty.
For anything else, you would need to fit a brass bodied twin impeller Positive head pump.
Whilst they come with a great warranty, it is imperative that they are fitted exactly as the manufacturers describe. For example, the flexible hoses from the pump must be practically dead straight up from the pump with little to no curvature, any bends on the hoses voids the warranty!

amorgan wrote: »

i might well look at the timer idea, that sounds smart. although, the only other water pressure i'd really be fussed about increasing is the kitchen sink, which wouldn't be affected at all

Timers are a great idea, have fitted quite a few to pumps over the years.

Sleeper12

K.Flyer wrote: »

Nonsense, if your attic tank is anywhere more than a foot or so above your shower head a positive head is fine. I say that as an installer and having one in my own house.



The Walrus pump, (which is a re-badged Kikawa pump ) is only a single pipe pump. Whereas the Stuart Turners that you looked at are Two pipe (hot and cold) pumps, they are two very different pumps.
The cheap 180 euro Stuart Turner pump is considered a "disposable" pump and Stuart Turner do not provide any spare parts for them.
Also keep in mind that under their warranty conditions this unit must be connected to a Single shower or a bath / shower mixer only. Using it to pressurise more than one item, say a complete bathroom, voids the warranty.
For anything else, you would need to fit a brass bodied twin impeller Positive head pump.
Whilst they come with a great warranty, it is imperative that they are fitted exactly as the manufacturers describe. For example, the flexible hoses from the pump must be practically dead straight up from the pump with little to no curvature, any bends on the hoses voids the warranty!



Timers are a great idea, have fitted quite a few to pumps over the years.

Ive been told the cheap Stuart Turner pump doesn't have the 5 year warranty either? Happy to be corrected on this.

Also OP you will want something with a Brass body. Plastic ones though are cheaper but they make a lot more noise

K.Flyer

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Ive been told the cheap Stuart Turner pump doesn't have the 5 year warranty either? Happy to be corrected on this.

They used to only have a 1 year warranty, but according to Stuart Turner's web side it is now 3 years. But must only be connected to one item, either a shower or a bath / shower mixer.

Sleeper12

K.Flyer wrote: »

They used to only have a 1 year warranty, but according to Stuart Turner's web side it is now 3 years. But must only be connected to one item, either a shower or a bath / shower mixer.

3 years isn't bad for what it is. I'll never swap my 3 bar monsoon ST. It's soooo quiet.

amorgan

K.Flyer wrote: »

Nonsense, if your attic tank is anywhere more than a foot or so above your shower head a positive head is fine. I say that as an installer and having one in my own house.

The cheap 180 euro Stuart Turner pump is considered a "disposable" pump and Stuart Turner do not provide any spare parts for them.
Also keep in mind that under their warranty conditions this unit must be connected to a Single shower or a bath / shower mixer only. Using it to pressurise more than one item, say a complete bathroom, voids the warranty.
For anything else, you would need to fit a brass bodied twin impeller Positive head pump.
Whilst they come with a great warranty, it is imperative that they are fitted exactly as the manufacturers describe. For example, the flexible hoses from the pump must be practically dead straight up from the pump with little to no curvature, any bends on the hoses voids the warranty!

Timers are a great idea, have fitted quite a few to pumps over the years.

thanks for all this, it's great information. the only use i really want it for is a single shower with mixer, so maybe the 'disposable' one is a viable option. is there a specific model of stuart turner pumps you would recommend? or is it just a case of choosing what amount of pressure is desired? cost isn't a massive factor, i just don't want to waste money on too much/too little.

antoinolachtnai

I think you will be very happy with the 'budget' pump from Stuart Turner. It will be a big improvement compared to what you have now.

K.Flyer

amorgan wrote: »

thanks for all this, it's great information. the only use i really want it for is a single shower with mixer, so maybe the 'disposable' one is a viable option. is there a specific model of stuart turner pumps you would recommend? or is it just a case of choosing what amount of pressure is desired? cost isn't a massive factor, i just don't want to waste money on too much/too little.

The Stuart Turner brass bodied pumps are my first choice of pumps allways.
For your installation I would be suggesting the Stuart Turner 2.0 Bar Twin Pump.
Given that you still need to do the same installation and adjustments to pipework etc as a cheaper pump, the extra cost of the pump would pay far better long term dividends in terms of warranty, longevity and noise, plus spare parts are readily available.

amorgan

K.Flyer wrote: »

The Stuart Turner brass bodied pumps are my first choice of pumps allways.
For your installation I would be suggesting the Stuart Turner 2.0 Bar Twin Pump.
Given that you still need to do the same installation and adjustments to pipework etc as a cheaper pump, the extra cost of the pump would pay far better long term dividends in terms of warranty, longevity and noise, plus spare parts are readily available.

that's great, thanks again. this looks quite a good price for it, about €340 inc delivery. hopefully that'll be the last question i have!

link

antoinolachtnai

You might be better getting the plumber to buy the pump. Certainly get him/her involved in specifying it if you can.

K.Flyer

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

You might be better getting the plumber to buy the pump. Certainly get him/her involved in specifying it if you can.

I would advise this as well, if there was an issue with the pump they should be able to have it resolved quicker for you.

antoinolachtnai

They also then don't get to complain afterwards that you bought the wrong pump!