reccomendations on getting an 8 month old female spayed - North Dublin?

kingaaa

have an 8 month old Puggle, is it too early? any reccomendations as close to D5 for a good vet that would minimise the discomfort?

kylith

It's generally recommended to wait until she's had her first heat.

Ms Doubtfire1

kylith wrote: »

It's generally recommended to wait until she's had her first heat.

And that's a general misunderstanding that still raises it's ugly head. She should be spayed before the first heat

For many years we have known that spaying a female dog or cat before the first heat cycle almost eliminates their life long risk of mammary tumors (breast cancer). In dogs 50% of tumors are malignant. ... The first heat cycle generally occurs around 7 months for small dogs, and a little later in large breed dogs.

joey100

We just had our dog neutered, it was recommended to go before the first heat for the reasons MsDoubtfire said. We were told that if she went into heat before it we would have to wait a few weeks to let her go through it before we could get it done. She got it done around 7 and a half months. Bit groggy for a few days after, but healed up quickly and not a bother on her now.

tk123

Ms Doubtfire1 wrote: »

And that's a general misunderstanding that still raises it's ugly head. She should be spayed before the first heat

For many years we have known that spaying a female dog or cat before the first heat cycle almost eliminates their life long risk of mammary tumors (breast cancer). In dogs 50% of tumors are malignant. ... The first heat cycle generally occurs around 7 months for small dogs, and a little later in large breed dogs.

SIGH And this common myth raises it's head!

The risk of spaying early far outweighs the risk of mammary cancer. Any modern/forward thinking vet will tell you to wait. My friend was told by a vet nurse last week to spay a 6 month old retriever - a breed known to be at risk of bone cancer from early spaying/neutering. :mad::mad:

http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2013/04/10/early-spaying.aspx - written by Karen Becker - a pretty famous vet because she doesn't spew the usual crap about spaying early and feeding Hills..


https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiKwKCWv_nTAhWB1xoKHdnkBVEQFggiMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpubmed%2F22647210&usg=AFQjCNHvXDDuWXY0Jru6jioZ3KiOSsR6FQ&sig2=lunXr0auzQ5qOzKeotLz6A

TLDR

A commonly-stated advantage of neutering bitches is a significant reduction in the risk of mammary
tumours, however the evidence for this has not previously been assessed by systematic review. The objectives of this study were to estimate the magnitude and strength of evidence for any effect of neutering, or age of neutering, on the risk of mammary tumours in bitches. A systematic review was conducted based on Cochrane guidelines. Peer-reviewed analytic journal articles in English were eligible and were assessed for risk of bias by two reviewers independently. Of 11,149 search results, 13 reports in English-language peer-reviewed journals addressed the association between neutering/age at neutering and mammary tumours. Nine were judged to have a high risk of bias. The remaining four were classified as having a moderate risk of bias. One study found an association between neutering and a reduced risk of mammary tumours. Two studies found no evidence of an association. One reported "some protective effect" of neutering on the risk of mammary tumours, but no numbers were presented. Due to the limited evidence available and the risk of bias in the published results, the evidence that neutering reduces the risk of mammary neoplasia, and the evidence that age at neutering has an effect, are judged to be weak and are not a sound basis for firm recommendations.

EDIT - Sorry OP I forgot to say that my girl was done (once she was fully grown) at Anicare Glasnevin aka Botanic Vets. They have a clinic in Clontarf too. She was tried that evening and back to herself the following morning!! She's lazy anyways so we didn't notice any difference that night

Knine

kylith wrote: »

It's generally recommended to wait until she's had her first heat.

Agreed. This is what I would do too. A lot of scare mongering about cancer. My older bitches must be riddled so.

I think there was a thread here not so long ago of a leaking problem a bitch had when she was spayed early.

OP I would let her have her first heat & then get her done. She probably won't come back into heat again for at least another 6 months after depending on her cycle.

boomerang

Another bitch put to sleep this week with terminal mammary cancer.

tk123

boomerang wrote: »

Another bitch put to sleep this week with terminal mammary cancer.

when was the dog spayed?

DBB

The risk of mammary cancer is small. Very small.
The small risk increases with each time the bitch comes into heat... But looking at it absolutely objectively, when you multiply a very small number by another small number, you get a slightly larger, small number.
At its very worst, in elderly females of breeds that are prone, the risk increases to 6 in 100.
Note... That's in elderly, intact bitches.
The risk in a younger dog, if I remember correctly from studying this in some depth a few years ago, is less than 1%.
Just to put things in perspective.
Edited to add #2... The research paper underpinning the oft-cited hugely increased risk of mammary cancers dates back to 1969, and found that the risk in pre-oestrus bitches is 0.05%. In bitches after their first heat, the risk increased to 8%. After the 2nd heat, this rose hugely to 26%... Intact bitches under 2.5 years remain at low incidence, but above 2.5 years the risk multiplied by a large degree. So, this is where the advice comes from to spay pre-oestrus, but I would be of the opinion to balance the risk of spaying after 1st oestrus against the risk of eg spay incontinence... I'd also factor in breed, because some breeds are far more prone to mammary cancers... And personally, I'd want all growth plates to have fused, at the very minimum, before I'd remove any hormonal influence.
The 6% incidence in older bitches that I cited above is from a paper published in 2000.

Edited to add... The incidence of spay-related incontinence in spayed females has been recorded as between 10-20%, whilst the incidence in entire females is 0-1%.

Knine

Thank you DBB, from some of the posts here owners would be scared into thinking every unspayed bitch or entire dog is a walking cancer time bomb. It is certainly not the case. I have had lots of dogs & bitches who died entire from totally unrelated issues - old age.

I do have spayed & neutered dogs. They are very different to my entire dogs (and not in a good way) & they are all the same breed.

I'm lucky that the vets I do use never push their spay/neutering agenda down anyones throat.

Choc Chip

Can anyone link to any good papers on spay incontinence and the effect age-at-spaying might have on incidence? It is something I would worry about if I was spaying a pup. I seem to remember that it can be more prevalent in larger breeds, and that it doesn't show immediately but after a couple of years... I just can't find where I read that.

Just to add, I do get the fear people have of mammary cancer. My older dog got it last year and the growth rate was truly terrifying - she went from having a ping-pong sized lump to a ball the size of my palm in under a week. I could measure the daily growth on a ruler. However, incidence is low (thanks for the stats DBB ), and it's not a death sentence. She had the tumour removed before they'd even biopsied (it was malignant), was fine a couple of days later and is showing no signs of the cancer returning at this stage - I think we're at about 8 months since the removal.

DBB

This is a couple of them, just the abstracts though... I'll try to find more later!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2762792

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11787155

kathleen37

Both my two dachshunds got mammary cancer (they couldn't be neutered as they had been breeders - mother and daughter, both of which had more than one c section - scarring meant I couldn't find a vet that would neuter either)

It's really horrible. Both had to have extensive surgery, but both recovered.

DBB

Dachshunds are one of the most susceptible breeds for mammary cancer.. In the top 3 I think?
No doubt about it, it's a horrible disease, and even though more mammarian tumours are benign than malignant, the surgery to remove the tumours is verrrryyyy invasive.
If I owned a susceptible breed from puppyhood, I would certainly get her neutered by 7-8 months.
If I owned a not-susceptible breed, I'd wait til between the 1st and 2nd heat, on the assumption that she's not intended for breeding.
For me, for a not-susceptible breed, waiting til they're a little older ticks a lot more boxes... But each to their own, as long as it's decided having been fully informed of the pros and cons on both sides

Sorry op... This is all going off topic on you!
Raheny Veterinary Clinic is good too... Traditional spaying will always be somewhat painful as it's relatively invasive, but the vast majority of dogs cope very well indeed. The vet will give you pain relief for her. Some can be drama queens and may be a bit mopey for a few days, but they're a small minority.
Another option is keyhole, or laparoscopic spay... Quite pricey but not as invasive. Not too many vets offer it as it's quite specialised, but might be worth looking into as an option.

tk123

OP I forgot to say - I used an inflatable collar for Lucy when she was unsupervised to be safe and also a t-shirt because she scratched at her bald tummy the first morning and her nails really marked it.

Knine

kathleen37 wrote: »

Both my two dachshunds got mammary cancer (they couldn't be neutered as they had been breeders - mother and daughter, both of which had more than one c section - scarring meant I couldn't find a vet that would neuter either)

It's really horrible. Both had to have extensive surgery, but both recovered.

Really? Breeding bitches C Sections or not are often spayed when they retire from breeding. Strange that you could not find a vet to spay.

Choc Chip

DBB wrote: »

This is a couple of them, just the abstracts though... I'll try to find more later!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2762792

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11787155

Thanks a mill - bedtime reading!

Choc Chip

tk123 wrote: »

OP I forgot to say - I used an inflatable collar for Lucy when she was unsupervised to be safe and also a t-shirt because she scratched at her bald tummy the first morning and her nails really marked it.

OP: the tshirt is a really good idea - if your puggle is more towards pug-sized, a baby-gro might be an appropriate size? Plus the legs are dead handy for tying it up out of the way at the back.

(I think someone recommended that to me on here before!)

boomerang

When the few people who ever post about spay/neuter on this form are mostly staunchly against it, it's important to have balance.

Funny how that study found incidences of urinary incontinence is relatively high, when in our practice with hundreds of clients, only three bitches are on Propalin.

On the other hand, we see cases of mammary cancer all the time.

And I'll state again for the record, coat changes and changes in body fat composition should not be concerns for the average owner.

boomerang

tk123 wrote: »

when was the dog spayed?

Bitch was not spayed.

boomerang

DBB wrote: »

Dachshunds are one of the most susceptible breeds for mammary cancer.. In the top 3 I think?
No doubt about it, it's a horrible disease, and even though more mammarian tumours are benign than malignant, the surgery to remove the tumours is verrrryyyy invasive.

It's 50/50, DBB.

Knine

boomerang wrote: »

When the few people who ever post about spay/neuter on this form are mostly staunchly against it, it's important to have balance.

Funny how that study found incidences of urinary incontinence is relatively high, when in our practice with hundreds of clients, only three bitches are on Propalin.

On the other hand, we see cases of mammary cancer all the time.

And I'll state again for the record, coat changes and changes in body fat composition should not be concerns for the average owner.

I have a lot of friends who happen to be vets. There are lots of vets showing dogs. They would not agree with having so many cases of mammary cancer. The UI is not often treated. Many owners just put up with it.

For many owners coat changes are important. Say that to the owners of magnificent Rough Collies whose coats are absolutely destroyed by spaying or Springer Spaniels who have to be clipped. For people who are really into their coated dogs then of course it matters. People with working terrriers or gundogs. Their coat is designed to protect them. A clipped Border Terrier or one whose undercoat has fallen out is no good as an under ground dog.

Yes balance is very important. I agree but don't dismiss what you think is not important & push an agenda which lets face in brings in a lot of revenue for vets.

boomerang

I already said that I was pro-neuter before qualifying as a vet nurse in 2013. I have a long history with dogs, and dog rescue before that. Does my involvement in rescue sway my views? Of course. But I too have read the literature and my own personal choice for my own dogs would still be to spay/neuter.

Interesting to note the 6% incidence of mammary cancer against the incidence of osteocarcoma, which is 0.2%.

DBB

boomerang wrote: »

It's 50/50, DBB.

As this study reflects, although it's 50/50 across the general population, the risk of malignancy is higher in susceptible breeds, whilst the incidence of malignancy is quite low in not-susceptible breeds... Very low in this report in the case of the Bernese Mountain Dog.
I should have been clearer that I was continuing to refer to the risk of malignancy at breed level

http://europepmc.org/abstract/med/11787188

Knine

boomerang wrote: »

I already said that I was pro-neuter before qualifying as a vet nurse in 2013. I have a long history with dogs, and dog rescue before that. Does my involvement in rescue sway my views? Of course. But I too have read the literature and my own personal choice for my own dogs would still be to spay/neuter.

Interesting to note the 6% incidence of mammary cancer against the incidence of osteocarcoma, which is 0.2%.

Lol how long do you think my history with dogs is?

Who do you think is likely to survive from your incidence findings? Bone cancer is a silent killer & usually at a very young age. I know which I would prefer my dogs to have & you will find that among certain breeds those rates are far different.

My altered dogs all have or had joint issues. One has UI & dreadful coat. If I was to compare lifespan from my own dogs, my entire dogs lived on average 3 to 4 years longer. I also have had several dogs in show partnerships. So we are talking a lot more dogs then the average owner.

DBB

boomerang wrote: »

Interesting to note the 6% incidence of mammary cancer against the incidence of osteocarcoma, which is 0.2%.

Again, care needs to be taken here so that owners of certain breeds are aware of the hugely increased risk of osteosarcoma in (male) dogs if neutered prior to 1 year of age... Many multiple times greater than 0.2%.
Blanket statements about crude incidences are useful of course, but any vet I know is very cautious about neutering certain larger breeds too early.

Knine

Something I forgot to mention. How many unfortunate owners have to deal with cruciate problems. Our Spinone & our Jack Russell both damaged theirs within a few months of being spayed/neutered. Months & months of crate rest for the Spinone, numerous failed operations & she was lame for the rest of her life.

I am all for balance but when posters ask about spaying or neutering early, they are advised incorrectly imo to have it done before the first heat without being told the pros & cons.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/new-study-neuter-risk-hip-dysplasia-dogs/

The 'few' people you mention above are actually really experienced dog people.

tk123

boomerang wrote: »

When the few people who ever post about spay/neuter on this form are mostly staunchly against it, it's important to have balance.

I guess that's aimed at Knine as I've said in many threads that my girl is spayed. I took my vets advice and waited.

I have personal experience of catastrophic bone deformities so you can be sure I'll do my research before taking the word a one size fits study.

When people are giving worst case stories every time it's also important to have balance.

I have to say with hundreds of clients you seem to have a pretty crappy opinion of what an average dog owner is

boomerang

Well you were derogatory about someone who stays up to date on worming and vaccinations and had her dog spayed at six months. To me that's a good owner. I'm out of this discussion before things get even more personal. You seem to think I have some vendetta.

DBB

tk123 wrote: »

I have to say with hundreds of clients you seem to have a pretty crappy opinion of what an average dog owner is

There is no need for comments like this.
Debate your points folks, but absolutely without personal jibes such as this.
Thanks,
DBB

Choc Chip

I don't think anyone is anti-neutering as such, what was being discussed was more when to neuter.

Personally, I'm less fussy about coat changes, but would worry about the risk of incontinence/bone cancer/mammary cancer and I'd have to balance these risks if I was ever in the position to decide WHEN to neuter. I would probably eventually neuter any dog I had, as mine have a certain degree of supervised freedom on our farm and I would worry about them bolting to find an in-season bitch.

Having said all that, my life suits older rescue dogs rather than puppies and I'm probably opining on something that'll never concern me so I'll bow out now.

tk123

Choc Chip wrote: »

I don't think anyone is anti-neutering as such, what was being discussed was more when to neuter.

Personally, I'm less fussy about coat changes, but would worry about the risk of incontinence/bone cancer/mammary cancer and I'd have to balance these risks if I was ever in the position to decide WHEN to neuter. I would probably eventually neuter any dog I had, as mine have a certain degree of supervised freedom on our farm and I would worry about them bolting to find an in-season bitch.

Having said all that, my life suits older rescue dogs rather than puppies and I'm probably opining on something that'll never concern me so I'll bow out now.

Lol lol it's sounds like you're broody for a puppy! Admit it!!

Choc Chip

tk123 wrote: »

Lol lol it's sounds like you're broody for a puppy! Admit it!!

I secretly stalk multiple breeders on facebook and imagine my life with a little fluffy bundle of joy. Just not for many years.

kingaaa

Might seem a bit silly, but how will I know when she is in heat?... I've never had a female dog before and she is a house dog with minimum interaction with other dogs....

tk123

kingaaa wrote: »

Might seem a bit silly, but how will I know when she is in heat?... I've never had a female dog before and she is a house dog with minimum interaction with other dogs....

With Lucy there was no obvious signs it was imminent until there was a drop of blood! The whole thing was a non event really... she bled and skipped the 'standing heat' phase and that was it! It was during the summer so I was able to get out early with her for walks in the morning and again in the evenings knowing where I wouldn't run into anyone.

Knine

kingaaa wrote: »

Might seem a bit silly, but how will I know when she is in heat?... I've never had a female dog before and she is a house dog with minimum interaction with other dogs....

Her vulva will start to swell up & she will likely drip blood. The first sign of blood is day 1. Danger days are from approximately 10 days onwards until about day 17. She will become very playful with male dogs & when out walking for a month or 2 beforehand she will start to pee more often - leaving a calling card for the boys.

My male stud dog shows no interest in bitches in heat until they are ready to accept the dog.