Better selection in US?

Shefwedfan

OK, so I am looking at 7 seater replacement, mainly as I like to research. Have an SMAX and would like a newer version of it but easier on diesel and better on poor old lungs.

Seen that Ford might be doing a hybrid and it mentions not been released in Europe....

Checked the Ford US website and surprised at the large selection of Hybrids and a few Electric cars they have on sale:http://www.ford.com/new-hybrids-evs/

From the e-Golf forums there is a large customer base in US/Canada with a lot of orders already in for newer model.

Is Europe getting short changed in selection of hybrid/electric?

Sabre Man

Probably due to strict emission laws in California.

unkel

Oh yeah. Was in NY recently and couldn't get over the number of hybrids. I wouldn't be surprised if about half of new(ish) cars are hybrids there. And of course they have real emissions rules, so they obviously never went the diesel route.

Also the USA is now the number 1 country in the world for sale of pure EV cars, they have recently taken over from China. Norway (similar population as Ireland) is now number 3. Goes to show how ridiculously far we are behind. Ireland with the highest number of diesel cars per capita in the world :rolleyes:

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

Oh yeah. Was in NY recently and couldn't get over the number of hybrids. I wouldn't be surprised if about half of new(ish) cars are hybrids there. And of course they have real emissions rules, so they obviously never went the diesel route.

Also the USA is now the number 1 country in the world for sale of pure EV cars, they have recently taken over from China. Norway (similar population as Ireland) is now number 3. Goes to show how ridiculously far we are behind. Ireland with the highest number of diesel cars per capita in the world :rolleyes:

I was in Chicago for the Ire/NZ match and I seen every taxi was Hybrid but everything was Toyota. I was surprised when I looked at Ford the amount of options they have.

Really I though only Toyota and now Hyundai had mainstream hybrids.

I am just wondering what other cars am I missing out that are only in US?

ELM327

Shefwedfan wrote: »

I was in Chicago for the Ire/NZ match and I seen every taxi was Hybrid but everything was Toyota. I was surprised when I looked at Ford the amount of options they have.

Really I though only Toyota and now Hyundai had mainstream hybrids.

I am just wondering what other cars am I missing out that are only in US?

Many, many ICE cars.

In the EV space, you are missing all the compliance cars like the Fiat 500e, ford focus EV etc (most of which don't have DC charging)
Also the GM bolt, which, although it has CCS, it is Type 1 CCS which doesnt work over here.

zilog_jones

unkel wrote: »

And of course they have real emissions rules, so they obviously never went the diesel route.

VW diesels were a fairly popular alternative to hybrids other there, until certain things happened. Now the diesel passenger car market there is pretty much dead in the US.

The first Ford hybrids used transmissions (2 motors + planetary gearset) developed by Aisin AW - who also produce the transmissions for Toyota hybrids, though I believe Ford are making their own stuff in-house now. I believe others have been using hybrid or EV drivetrains either licensed from other carmakers or produced by a third party.

Tax and fuel is generally cheaper in the US, but hybrids and EVs have other advantages there, e.g. in California you can drive in HOV (carpool) lanes - although this has become stricter in recent years (IIRC only PHEVs and BEVs now, not standard hybrids).

cros13

Ford have the Energi series of PHEVs. Very popular in the US. Ford is bringing them to europe for the 181 reg with the Kuga, Focus, Mondeo and a year or two later the Mustang.

ELM327 wrote: »

In the EV space, you are missing all the compliance cars like the Fiat 500e, ford focus EV etc (most of which don't have DC charging)
Also the GM bolt, which, although it has CCS, it is Type 1 CCS which doesnt work over here.

The Focus EV was sold in the UK market up until this year. The new one has CCS.
The Bolt has come to europe with Type 2 CCS in the form of the Ampera-e.
Latest news on the Ampera-e is that the lack of a RHD version may not be final and we may see it on UK and Irish roads for the 191 reg, subject to PSA successfully negotiating a price.

ELM327

cros13 wrote: »

Ford have the Energi series of PHEVs. Very popular in the US. Ford is bringing them to europe for the 181 reg with the Kuga, Focus, Mondeo and a year or two later the Mustang.



The Focus EV was sold in the UK market up until this year. The new one has CCS.
The Bolt has come to europe with Type 2 CCS in the form of the Ampera-e.
Latest news on the Ampera-e is that the lack of a RHD version may not be final and we may see it on UK and Irish roads for the 191 reg, subject to PSA successfully negotiating a price.

Wasnt aware the focus was sold outside Cal and Oregon.
The ampera-e is a slightly different car and, as said, cannot be purchased here.

cros13

ELM327 wrote: »

The ampera-e is a slightly different car and, as said, cannot be purchased here.

Nope... it's the same car with a different badge and charging socket built on the same production line in Orion, Michigan.

ELM327

That'll teach me for assuming it was the same as the volt/ampera difference!


:pac:

BoatMad

I would certainly like to see hybrids discontinued as most are either "rule cheaters " or " compliance " vehicles.

There should be no incentives for hybrids with real world ranges under 50 km or battery packs under 15kwh

All they are are petrol cars in disguise

Shefwedfan

BoatMad wrote: »

I would certainly like to see hybrids discontinued as most are either "rule cheaters " or " compliance " vehicles.

There should be no incentives for hybrids with real world ranges under 50 km or battery packs under 15kwh

All they are are petrol cars in disguise

]

Seriously? how you come up with that one...

Hybrids are a great idea....anything that is not diesel to be honest is a great idea.

Getting rid of hybrid would be terrible idea, you would end up flooding the market with diesels again. I have 3 friends who have swapped diesel car for hybrids in the last 12 months. Would you prefer to see them still in there diesel engine driving around Dublin

BoatMad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

]

Seriously? how you come up with that one...

Hybrids are a great idea....anything that is not diesel to be honest is a great idea.

Getting rid of hybrid would be terrible idea, you would end up flooding the market with diesels again. I have 3 friends who have swapped diesel car for hybrids in the last 12 months. Would you prefer to see them still in there diesel engine driving around Dublin

No , all that is needed to sweep diesels from the market is to (a) abandon the ridiculous CO2 based car tax and raise diesel prices above petrol ( like they are in many European countries )

Diesel will naturally wither on the vine and people will return to petrol

Subsiding hybrids , which are just petrol cats in disguise is nonsense as a strategy

The whole point of subsidising BEVs is to promote a car that has zero pollution at the point of use , hybrids do not have that

zilog_jones

They're petrol cars which use less fuel, produce less emissions, and can now easily surpass diesels in fuel economy and running costs - what's the problem?

BoatMad

zilog_jones wrote: »

They're petrol cars which use less fuel, produce less emissions, and can now easily surpass diesels in fuel economy and running costs - what's the problem?

Sorry , it's a nonsense , fuel ecomony is based on figures derived from an extremely flawed test.

I've driven with several hybrid drivers. The car spends most of its time running as a petrol engine , the pollution continues out the exhaust pipe , the car is still consuming Dino juice

I'm not against hybrids. Merely against any subsidy for them over petrol .

The point of BEVS is to produce a modal change in private transport , hybrids are not the way to do that

As I said , nothing against them , just they shouldn't be subsidised unless they have minimum battery capacity and range requirements

zilog_jones

You have nothing against hybrids, but you think they're nonsense and should be discontinued?

Who cares about the test figures? People in the real world are getting superior fuel economy with modern hybrids (not talking about something like the 2nd gen Prius which went out of production 9 years ago) compared to diesels, even at motorway speeds. People wouldn't have bought millions of hybrids if they were just "rule cheaters" and offered no real benefits. I've halved my fuel costs with a PHEV over a diesel car.

In city driving, the ICE is only running about 50-60% of the time at most - even normal ICE cars with start-stop technology cannot compare to that.

EVs may be the future, but the topic of this thread is that there's not much choice and the current EVs available do not suit everyone's requirements. Hybrids won't be around long term, but they can certainly bridge that gap in many situations.

BoatMad

zilog_jones wrote: »

You have nothing against hybrids, but you think they're nonsense and should be discontinued?

Who cares about the test figures? People in the real world are getting superior fuel economy with modern hybrids (not talking about something like the 2nd gen Prius which went out of production 9 years ago) compared to diesels, even at motorway speeds. People wouldn't have bought millions of hybrids if they were just "rule cheaters" and offered no real benefits. I've halved my fuel costs with a PHEV over a diesel car.

In city driving, the ICE is only running about 50-60% of the time at most - even normal ICE cars with start-stop technology cannot compare to that.

EVs may be the future, but the topic of this thread is that there's not much choice and the current EVs available do not suit everyone's requirements. Hybrids won't be around long term, but they can certainly bridge that gap in many situations.

no sorry , maybe its my bad typing skills, I meant the subsidy should be discontinued ( not the hybrid) for PHEVs that do not have a decent electric range

I have no view on hybrids in general , most are just petrol cars in disguise ( like the prius )

ELM327

BoatMad wrote: »

no sorry , maybe its my bad typing skills, I meant the subsidy should be discontinued ( not the hybrid) for PHEVs that do not have a decent electric range

I have no view on hybrids in general , most are just petrol cars in disguise ( like the prius )

Or the compliance cars like the outlander!

Shefwedfan

BoatMad wrote: »

no sorry , maybe its my bad typing skills, I meant the subsidy should be discontinued ( not the hybrid) for PHEVs that do not have a decent electric range

I have no view on hybrids in general , most are just petrol cars in disguise ( like the prius )

You have no view on hybrids but it is the second time you posted they are "a petrol in disguise"

Also how can you have no view if you think the subsidy should be discontinued? is that not a view?

BoatMad

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You have no view on hybrids but it is the second time you posted they are "a petrol in disguise"

Also how can you have no view if you think the subsidy should be discontinued? is that not a view?

sorry , of course I have a view ( not a view in general , I have a specifc view )

(A) I believe, too many hybrids are just rule cheaters ( NEDC and EPA tests) and " compliance" cars. "gaming " the NEDC urban cycle to get better overall mileage figures and co2 position

(B) I see them as an unnecessary and expensive transition technology

(C) I do not believe that under a certain EV range and/or battery capacity they should receive any subsidy , the purposes of the EV subsidy is and should be zero emission cars.

(D) Those PHEVS with limited charging rates should not be allowed access to the public chargers

(D) Notwithstanding that , I have no issue if a manufacturer builds them and people buy them. ( with no subsidies ) as they are just in reality a petrol car

zilog_jones

If we want to get rid of diesel passenger cars, I think they are necessary for now.

As I've said countless times, the NEDC/EPA tests are irrelevant - hybrids work in the real world. Unless you have something to prove that they're merely gaming the system and are somehow ineffective, please stop this madness. The NEDC emissions figures are probably a hell of a lot more accurate than most diesels.

You can't have both a large battery *and* a petrol ICE with a fuel tank - now that's nonsense. 8-12kWh is what is currently achievable without too much compromise, and is plenty for a lot of driving patterns.

unkel

12kWh would cover most people's commute / a lot of short trips

How many PHEV currently for sale have say 12kWh and more though?

Shefwedfan

unkel wrote: »

12kWh would cover most people's commute / a lot of short trips

How many PHEV currently for sale have say 12kWh and more though?

Outlander has 12kW

The battery pack is a 12kWh lithium ion battery consisting of 80 cells mounted in series and enclosed in a secure frame.

zilog_jones

Yes, the Outlander has 12 kWh, but the current saloon/hatchback PHEVs are more around 8-9 kWh right now. You still want a fuel tank of at least 40 litres or so, otherwise it becomes a bit pointless.

Or there's the other route of range extended BEVs like the i3 REx, where you have a very small ICE + small fuel tank.

ELM327

Yes but the price point of the Outlander is different to most real EVs.
Anyone willing to purchase an EV will either be purchasing a true ev, or deciding to wait now and go for a true EV in the next gen ones

The exception to this is in the UK, where BIK taxation means that there were more PHEV outlanders sold than the diesel equivalent (AFAIR)

ELM327

zilog_jones wrote: »

Yes, the Outlander has 12 kWh, but the current saloon/hatchback PHEVs are more around 8-9 kWh right now. You still want a fuel tank of at least 40 litres or so, otherwise it becomes a bit pointless.

Or there's the other route of range extended BEVs like the i3 REx, where you have a very small ICE + small fuel tank.

Isn't there a classification in the US separate from PHEV (which is reserved generally for compliance cars) called BEVx which the only one currently is an i3.
I would not class the i3 rex as a PHEV because it is not designed to run on petrol power, and having the tiny generator engine doesnt really compromise the car.

Shefwedfan

ELM327 wrote: »

Yes but the price point of the Outlander is different to most real EVs.
Anyone willing to purchase an EV will either be purchasing a true ev, or deciding to wait now and go for a true EV in the next gen ones

The exception to this is in the UK, where BIK taxation means that there were more PHEV outlanders sold than the diesel equivalent (AFAIR)

Outlander PHEV in Uk was very popular.....I would buy one tomorrow if it had 7 seats in it like the diesel version......

zilog_jones

Yes, CARB define the i3 REx as a BEVx, but they are not necessarily mutually exclusive from a PHEV.

I'm not sure what this "compliance car" business is about - BEVs exist (especially US-only models like the FIAT 500e) for "compliance" too

ELM327

zilog_jones wrote: »

Yes, CARB define the Chevy Volt and i3 REx as a BEVx, but they are not necessarily mutually exclusive from a PHEV.

I'm not sure what this "compliance car" business is about - BEVs exist (especially US-only models like the FIAT 500e) for "compliance" too

The 500e that Marchionni pleaded with people not to buy? Yeah that's also a compliance car.

FYI: Volt is not a BEVx, the criteria for a BEVx among other things, is that it must have more EV range than ICE range.

goz83

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Outlander PHEV in Uk was very popular.....I would buy one tomorrow if it had 7 seats in it like the diesel version......

This was a major factor for me. If it had 7 seats, It may well have tipped the scales toward PHEV and away from BEV. I am kinda glad they didn't have the 7 seater option, but it would be great if they sorted that out. It's also a really nice SUV and was very comfortable, with great seats at the perfect height for my back.

n97 mini

I do have a problem with subsidies given to PHEVs that are essentially gas guzzlers when the battery is empty. A Prius on round trip Dublin to Cork will still get 50+ mpg. Fairly good.

A BMW xDrive40e will empty the battery by Newlands Cross and will return around 25 mpg for the rest of the trip. Why should we grant aid and incentive cars that return shocking economy so easily.

zilog_jones

n97 mini wrote: »

I do have a problem with subsidies given to PHEVs that are essentially gas guzzlers when the battery is empty. A Prius on round trip Dublin to Cork will still get 50+ mpg. Fairly good.

A BMW xDrive40e will empty the battery by Newlands Cross and will return around 25 mpg for the rest of the trip. Why should we grant aid and incentive cars that return shocking economy so easily.

A series-parallel PHEV will still function like a normal petrol hybrid once the battery is depleted. I can't say for all of them, but in my Prius Plug-in once the state of charge (SOC) is down to about 20% it will just function like a normal Prius, and maintain a SOC of around 20-30% (pretty much matching the 1.3 kWh battery in the standard Prius). It won't let me use EV mode again until it's charged from the mains, or I do a lot of regen (even then I might only get 0.4-0.5 miles). I know some will let you charge the battery more with the ICE, but it's not an efficient way of using the car.

The problem with the X5 xDrive40e is it's still a huge inefficient slab of a car, with an arguably underpowered ICE for its size. The Lexus RX hybrid is more efficient (compared to the X5 in petrol-only mode) with a larger engine. BMW are doing it wrong :P

n97 mini

Maybe economy should be measured over a full charge plus a full tank of fuel. Once both are empty if the overall economy is below the fleet average then no incentives.

listermint

https://www.engadget.com/2017/05/22/ford-motor-co-firing-mark-fields-nyt/

Ford will fire CEO Mark Fields and replace him with self-driving car chief Jim Hackett, according to the New York Times. The news comes amid turmoil in the company

Lack of foresight seems to be key here.

Just goes to show how major manufactures are not at the races with this technology and It really is the Nokia and Blackberry reboot happening all over again.

Move fast or fail.

BoatMad

zilog_jones wrote: »

If we want to get rid of diesel passenger cars, I think they are necessary for now.

As I've said countless times, the NEDC/EPA tests are irrelevant - hybrids work in the real world. Unless you have something to prove that they're merely gaming the system and are somehow ineffective, please stop this madness. The NEDC emissions figures are probably a hell of a lot more accurate than most diesels.

You can't have both a large battery *and* a petrol ICE with a fuel tank - now that's nonsense. 8-12kWh is what is currently achievable without too much compromise, and is plenty for a lot of driving patterns.

You consistently miss my point. I'm not against hybrids, what I am against is any subsidy for then. ( or access to fast chargers )