Property Transfer without Solicitor

kevincaomhin

This is a hypothetical question more than anything else but I would appreciate if people have any views without giving any legal advice obviously.


I know it is possible to get a grant of probate without the involvement of a solicitor (however the official can request the applicant gets a solicitor for whatever reason).

Is there a similar system for buying and selling property ? Or must they always involve a solicitor , I do not see any DIY guides on PRAI website etc.

If you always require a solicitor, is this consistent with the probate situation or is it a quirk?

Pat Mustard

In theory, it can be done but in reality, it is practically impossible.

There are several reasons for this:

1. Conveyancing is a potential minefield of problems.
2. Non solicitors don't know how to raise the relevant queries, answer queries correctly, draft deeds using the correct wordings and references to maps. In other words, they can't do it.
3. Because of the above, people hire solicitors.
4. Therefore, it is likely that there will be a solicitor on the other side. He will know that a non solicitor is 99.999999% likely to make a complete and utter balls of it and will refuse to deal with such a person, if he doesn't want to get sued, himself. Getting sued will jack up the cost of his insurance and potentially put his livelihood at risk, so he won't entertain it.
5. Solicitors undertakings are commonly required as a mechanism to resolve issues which arise. A solicitor's undertaking is a promise which must be observed at the potential risk of the solicitor's career. Therefore, the solicitor's undertaking has a value and it is trusted. The same cannot be said of the undertaking of a non-solicitor. It would be foolish to accept the undertaking of some punter to discharge a mortgage out of proceeds of sale, for instance.
6. Solicitors are covered by insurance. Punters are not. If your solicitor buys you a pup, sue him. If you buy a pup from a punter, best of luck with that.

So in theory it can be done but in practice, it is not feasible.

Mr. Incognito

All of the above.

The reason you have solicitors on both sides is that they know what they are doing.

They will check

1. Planning
2. Easments and rights of way
3. Undertakings
4. Burdens
5. Financing conditions
6. TITLE. TITLE TITLE TITLE

If you dont have a solicitor, I could guarantee you I could sell you an apple using conveyancing documents and you would not know the difference. I would put waivers and indemnities in the contact and would not give you any good title at all and you would not know the difference. I would waive all the special conditions and legal obligations of the vendor and you would not know the difference.

A solicitors duty is to HIS client. Not the person on the other side. Lets say the house has a defect and you dont get an engineers report. Lets say theres a squatter there or probate is fractured and there's a lis pendens on the Folio.

All of these things happen. Solicitors have rows over things all the time but mostly, they will come to an agreed position which protects both their clients.

And lastly, the buyers solicitor certifies title for the Bank. So if you dont have a solicitor the bank wont lend you the money. End of. Certifying title is a big deal. It means if the title you buy is not good and the solicitor has not caught it he is personally liable for the mortgage you owe.


I have seen a HUGE rise in lay litigants trying to do things. Bring claims, defend claims, bring a JR, run litigation proceedings.

They lose. You know whey they lose, because they havent spent ten years learning from experienced people, or studying their asses off to know all this stuff because at the end of the day its all relevant.

I wouldnt pull my own teeth or plumb my own house. I leave it to the trained professionals.

People that think conveyancing is straightforward are ignorant of the reality.

kevincaomhin

Thanks for the replies guys. I suppose the angle I was coming from was that sometimes probate is so straightforward that a lay person is able to do it themselves. Similarly I imagined (quite probably incorrectly) that certain scenarios where property transfers were straightforward and thus could be done without aid and cost of legal advice.

Mr. Incognito

kevincaomhin wrote: »

Thanks for the replies guys. I suppose the angle I was coming from was that sometimes probate is so straightforward that a lay person is able to do it themselves. Similarly I imagined (quite probably incorrectly) that certain scenarios where property transfers were straightforward and thus could be done without aid and cost of legal advice.

Probate is the administration of Wills.

Conveyancing is the Sale of Property.

I think you are confusing the two.

Property transfers are never straightforward.

kevincaomhin

Thanks Mr. Incognito for the reply.

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I think you are confusing the two.

To be honest, I have an understanding of the difference between them, but I was looking for an explanation as to why the Probate office have a distinct process where lay persons can complete the process which contrasts with the PRAI approach (no real explanation as to what to do).

Is there a wider issue here when you say a property transfer is never straightforward as for example if a Father wanted to gift his son a house would this not be a straightforward transfer? or a better question is should this not be straightforward transfer.

Pat Mustard

kevincaomhin wrote: »

Is there a wider issue here when you say a property transfer is never straightforward as for example if a Father wanted to gift his son a house would this not be a straightforward transfer? or a better question is should this not be straightforward transfer.

Problems could include boundary/map issues, title issues, charges, mortgages, planning permission, outstanding development contributions, building regulations, fire regulations, services being off site with no wayleaves, access problems, roads not being in charge, outstanding property taxes, outstanding commercial rates, liability for new taxes, unpaid stamp duty, etc. For the sake of this example, let's assume that there are none of these problems.

Leaving aside such problems, assuming no solicitors and assuming a straightforward transfer of a whole folio (not part) between father and son, where the son simply takes what he is given, assuming a clear Land Registry title, with no outstanding taxes/rates/charges/judgments, with the son attempting to carry out all drafting and observe all necessary procedures, if the deed of transfer could be drafted, executed, witnessed, stamped and registered correctly, it could work, in theory.

In reality, this doesn't happen because people can't read title, they can't draft, they don't understand how to raise law searches or how to read search results, they can't make stamp duty returns, they don't understand Land Registry procedures. Also, they encounter problems such as listed above and they don't know what to do about them. People don't understand what to do or how to convey property, generally.

In other words, they just can't do it.

nuac

Well said

Addle

Does property registration not assure title and provide format of deeds?

I helped family transfer family between themselves and all info was obtained on property registration authority and revenue's websites.

We saved €€€€ in legal fees.

BoatMad

Addle wrote: »

Does property registration not assure title and provide format of deeds?

I helped family transfer family between themselves and all info was obtained on property registration authority and revenue's websites.

We saved €€€€ in legal fees.

Land Registry is a formal acknowledge of title and does indeed provide a format for deeds etc

You can do a property transfer yourself, but the risk of not detecting issues is very high. I certainly wouldn't consider it between two disconnected third parties

BoatMad

We saved €€€€ in legal fees.

you hope !!!!

368100

And if on the off chance the solicitor does make a balls of it, you always have the comfort of their PI insurance to make a claim to be compensated

Peregrinus

Addle wrote: »

Does property registration not assure title and provide format of deeds?

I helped family transfer family between themselves and all info was obtained on property registration authority and revenue's websites.

We saved €€€€ in legal fees.

Yes, but as Pat point outs, the transferees now on title have no idea whether there are boundary/map issues, planning permission, outstanding development contributions, building regulations, fire regulations, services being off site with no wayleaves, access problems, roads not being in charge, outstanding property taxes, outstanding commercial rates, liability for new taxes, unpaid stamp duty or other issues that could expose them to liability, could make it difficult or impossible to sell the property in the open market, or could cause them other problems.

These may be risks they are happy to run if they know and trust the person who transferred the property to them (or it may simply never have occurred to them that these risks exist) but that's not a state of affairs anyone would be happy with in an arm's-length transaction.